Held at gunpoint

[audsley]

All I can say about SW New Mexico is this. Evidently the Peloncillos is a highly valued drug transport route that smugglers have to pay big bucks for permission to use. The area is thinly populated and smugglers have a high probability of getting through.

However, I have a contact in BP admin who tells me the BP recently put several dozen agents in tents in the Peloncillos with the idea that they would shut off most of the drug traffic there. For all I know that might still have agents camping there.

 

If it were me, I'd make a personal visit to a BP office and tell them what I planned to do and where I would be. I probably wouldn't ask too many questions about where the BP is.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Does anyone else find it Atrocious that in a country that fancies itself as the "Leaders of the Free World" and the "Greatest Nation on Earth".... we are sooo bound by PC and bleeding hearts that we are (or can be) victims or hostages of peoples from other nations.... on our own soil??? It just Blows me away!!!! I am sorry folks, but if you got drugs (and weapons to protect such drugs)..... you should be shot on site.... those drugs are a poison to our way of life just as much as those who bring them here..... and if they had to run the Apache Gauntlet to get them here.... on our streets and into the hands of our children... they might not be so eager....IMO. Our government should inact a zero tollerence Shoot First, Ask Questions Later at our borders and I bet this deal would change a Bunch!! A coyote is a coyote.... and we know how hunters feel about coyotes.....

 

 

But... this topic is one of the big reasons I don't hunt that far South....

 

I agree with this post for sure, we are frustrated and it pisses us off and yet our hands are tied unless we want to end up in jail because we did something illegal.

 

Watching the news yesterday they were trying to pin Sheriff Joe down because he said some things that indicated he was "profiling" illegals. What the double LL is he supposed to do if he can't look at a duck and say....it is a duck.......it is messed.

 

I also agree with Casey, get Beck on the wagon who cares what CNN thinks..........

 

[Sam]

I have been hunting the southern units in AZ for 30 years. I saw my first set of Illegals when I was in grade school on a javelina hunt east of Douglas. Since that time time, I have see both armed and unarmed illegals. The impact these illegals have on the environment is incredible. Everyone ready this post knows this and I'm sure you are all disgusted. But, what many people don't think about is the impact these illegals have on society. For the past 16 years, I have worked in education, as a high school teacher, coach and counselor. You know were the kids of these drug smugglers and illegals end up - right next to yours in class. It is incredible how many illegals go through our school system - and we can't do a thing about it. Now, granted, I would rather have an educated illegal rather than an uneducated. However, when our class sizes are 40 and our educators don't get paid worth a darn, I have a hard time going out on a limb for someone who doesn't even speak English. Help our Boarder Patrol as much as possible. Let Sheriff Joe do his job and give our schools power to educate Americans. And yes, I have a late November tag in 36A - hoping for the best!

[gogoj1]

TATAat27 - for the sake of safety for those of us with 36B tags, can you get any more details? I don't think any of us will be stealing your buddy's honey hole - I promise he can have it all to himself! How did the bandits find him anyway? Did they spot him and sneak up on him on the sit, or was he on the road, or was he moving and stumbled across them?

 

I have not had any bad experiences down there, but this year was planning to go in deeper. From what I can pick up from BP on the news and the papers, one bad area is west of Tubac in the Tumacaccoris - because of the 'permanent mobile' BP checkpoint on the Interstate just North of there. The smugglers are bypassing the checkpoint through the mountains, not through the cities to the East. This is where in 2007 armed bandits ripped off and killed some drug mules.

[TATAat27]

Sorry, I dont know the exact location but in all actuality, they could be anywhere. The 3 drug smugglers my dad and I ran into was in the San Luis mountain range, they said they were headed to 3 points. I would like to think that the problem is more toward the border, but I know its a lot more widespread than that. Perhaps Casey or anyone else who works for the BP will chime in and let us know what they have seen or heard with regards to "hot spots" to stay clear of.

 

Rich

 

 

[alexjh1]

Well guys, I know these things happen in terms of run ins with those crossing over from mexico that should not. First, lets make a clear distinction from those who are coming over that shouldnt and those who are violent. A very big difference. I dont condone either however there is a amll majority who are bad guys vs looking to get out of a bad situation illegally. Here is my two cents for what its worth.

 

I have hunted 36C many times and have shared a lot of the same concerns you have all just talked about. The truth is I have never had a run in, yet read the same and heard the same from others. I have taken my son there twice. I will be honest, at night at camp over a camp fire I think about it and while I am out I wonder what I will come back too if anythign yet it all works out with no disturbances.

 

The truth is, these things do happen, just not as ofter as we think because those who are affected post and those who have a great hunt dont say anything because we enjoy the time we spent with our buddies and/or families. I see the heli's, aircraft and bp out there. Can more be done, yes! However there are military and BP and local law enforcement giving it all they can.

 

If we took a pole, I would be interested in seeing how many hunters visit the units vs how many are atually confronted with the ding dongs running drugs or robbing hunters.

 

I agree, write your congressman lets just not jump to conclusions and draw your crosshairs on poor saps looking for a better life. You would do the same for your family, just fortunate enough to be born in this great country.

 

Again, no offense to anyone, just my thoughts.

[John O]

Just set a 50 cal. up on the highest points, the first shoot is a warning after that their just numbers.

 

For those of you that have posted suggestions like this one, you are not helping the situation. The other side wants to paint us as gun wielding lunatics that will shoot anything that moves and have no respect for life. If we are smart, we will keep this discussion within what the law allows, and be realistic on how to deal with difficult border issues. If you really want to know the law, go to a CCW class and you will understand that you can only use deadly force in response to the threat of deadly force, or deadly force itself. Now here is the kicker- This is what the law states, however it only applies as interpreted in "the eyes of a jury in a court of law". Please, lets all rise above this "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude, so that we are seen as striving to be law abiding ethical hunters, and not radical freaks.

[WOODSAZ]

I havent taken the CCW class yet but hypothetically speaking, if you were up glassing and saw a group of these gangs holding a group of hunters at gunpoint, would you have the right to shoot in their defense?

[Brian Payne]

QUOTE (Jessedr @ Oct 23 2009, 09:47 AM) *

Just set a 50 cal. up on the highest points, the first shoot is a warning after that their just numbers.

 

 

For those of you that have posted suggestions like this one, you are not helping the situation. The other side wants to paint us as gun wielding lunatics that will shoot anything that moves and have no respect for life. If we are smart, we will keep this discussion within what the law allows, and be realistic on how to deal with difficult border issues. If you really want to know the law, go to a CCW class and you will understand that you can only use deadly force in response to the threat of deadly force, or deadly force itself. Now here is the kicker- This is what the law states, however it only applies as interpreted in "the eyes of a jury in a court of law". Please, lets all rise above this "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude, so that we are seen as striving to be law abiding ethical hunters, and not radical freaks.

 

Well said Hammy. Let's not forget that these are people, and not varmints (some may fit the second category better but not most). The border is a very tough issue. The problems that illegal immigration cause to our society are vast and serious, from violence and drugs to social and economic issues. We are fighting it hard but not near hard enough from a government standpoint. I had the opportunity to live in Guatemala for two years and I do not blame the people one bit for trying to leave there hopeless situations of poverty and corruption. I would try to do the same. There is a right and a wrong way to do it though and the problem is that most of them don't even know the right way.

 

While it is very likely that if you hunt the southern units you will see illegal immigration/smuggling activities, the chances of a dangerous or harmful encounter are much less likely. My brother and I have had several encounters with illegals and smugglers but nothing that keeps us from going back. These people want more than anything to keep a low profile. Coyotes and smugglers have routes that they like to continually use and if they do something to call attention to that route they will have to find a new one. With that being said there are definite dangers involved with people as desperate as many of them are and we need to be cautious when hunting/scouting in areas where this activity is taking place. My wife worries about me hunting in the border units. I tell her that the most dangerous thing I do each week is get in my car and drive down the freeway to work with all the yahoo drivers. I honestly believe that. I have a 36B dec. tag this year and am so excited I can hardly stand it.

 

I havent taken the CCW class yet but hypothetically speaking, if you were up glassing and saw a group of these gangs holding a group of hunters at gunpoint, would you have the right to shoot in their defense?

 

WOODS, AZ I have thought about this as well and I would think that based on the imminent threat of deadly force I would say YES, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this.

 

I want to paint another picture for you all and see how you would respond to this situation:

 

You are hiking with your hunting partner to an area you are going to glass. You both have your long range hunting rifles over your shoulders and .45 cal pistol on your hip in a holster. You come up over a rise and suddenly you see two smugglers with assault rifles over their shoulders just 20 yards in front of you. The smugglers see you about the same time you see them. What is your reaction? I think I know how I would react but I am curious to see what the rest of you say. Please respond to this as I see this as a very likely situation where a split second initial reaction could make all the difference in the outcome.

 

[WinMag]

WOODS, AZ I have thought about this as well and I would think that based on the imminent threat of deadly force I would say YES, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this.

 

I want to paint another picture for you all and see how you would respond to this situation:

 

You are hiking with your hunting partner to an area you are going to glass. You both have your long range hunting rifles over your shoulders and .45 cal pistol on your hip in a holster. You come up over a rise and suddenly you see two smugglers with assault rifles over their shoulders just 20 yards in front of you. The smugglers see you about the same time you see them. What is your reaction? I think I know how I would react but I am curious to see what the rest of you say. Please respond to this as I see this as a very likely situation where a split second initial reaction could make all the difference in the outcome.

 

 

In response to your question,

 

I think almost anybody that comments on this is merely stating what they would like to think they would do only. The fact is that for most, what you say you would do and what you would do is two different things. Unless you train daily for this sort of thing then you are working on emotions only when it happens. When you train daily on this type of scenario then you build muscle reflex and can over power your emotional reactions. This is why Leo’s and the Military train constantly to avoid the emotional reaction. I won't say what I would do until it happens and then let's hope I make the right decision. But I will say 'I'm going to make it home to the best of my ability. Anything I would do down there is to "stop his actions" only to ensure my return trip home".

 

With that said, here is a better plan or should I say challenge for our members. If we as members and hunters really care for the safety of our fellow hunters, then why not post up the areas that you feel are the worst areas and should be avoided. If you hunt the same area every year and feel it is unsafe then say so, and post it. Not just unit 36B blah blah blah, say it. As in Hells Gate, Apache Pass, The south end of the road where California Gulch and Warsaw come together, Tres Ballatos Ranch area and so on. I have hunted 36B every year now for 12 years or more and if you want to know what I have seen in a certain area then say the area and ask. I will tell you what I have seen and give you my thoughts on it. There is no "private" hunting area down there or anywhere worth letting somebody stumble into a bad situation just to protect my "Honey Hole". Not at any time would I would consider an area that is unsafe to hunt in one's opinion a "Honey Hole" so why wouldn’t I give it up.

 

I have held off posting on this for awhile but felt the need to post my opinion now. Just my thoughts......

[Broken Wheels]

I recommend that your friends, EACH, send a letter to their representatives and senators!!!! Personal experiences always seem to be the ones that hit home for these disconnected folks.

 

Unfortunately this is the best way to combat this problem though anymore it falls on deaf ears. McCain isn't even representing us (conservative Republicans) and knows all about fences as he rides his all the time! Violence never solves anything and yes I served and with pride during the drug wars of the 80's throughout Central and South America. Our hands were tied then as they are now because it is still big business and always will be. Those two legged mules packing the product are NOT the problem as the ranchers we speak with down there while hunting tell us stories of how these are family men and boys that are forced to do this or see their families being held in Mexico raped, shot and killed. Any of us in the same position would also pack that crap wherever, whenever before we would see our children, wives and grandchildren harmed. Be careful my friends and be smart as it sounds like most of you are when it comes to "bumping into" some of these characters.

[AZLance]

Had some friends who are camped in 36C on the Anvil ranch right now. The first evening, they had a Illegal Allien come into their camp and she was badly beaten by her coyote. She said she had escaped from the coyote, and that the coyote was looking for her. Soon after that they could hear foot steps all around their camp in the dark. My friend said the area they are in right now is being overrun, and they are sleeping with one eye open and one in the chamber...

[John O]

I havent taken the CCW class yet but hypothetically speaking, if you were up glassing and saw a group of these gangs holding a group of hunters at gunpoint, would you have the right to shoot in their defense?

 

As far as the law goes, you have the right to defend third party individuals against either the threat of deadly force or deadly force, as you would defend yourself. In doing so, you are responsible for any unintended consequences that might occur. For instance- You come over a ridge and see a group of bad guys holding a group of hunters at gunpoint. You quietly set up for a steady shot, and fire away at one of the bad guys, or at least the guy threatening deadly force to the hunter(s). Now let's say your scope got bumped without you realizing it, and when you fire, your bullet hits one of the hunters and kills him. Guess what, you go to jail for a long time for taking the life of an innocent man. Now what if your bullet flies true, and passes through the bad guy killing him, but exits at an angle striking one of the hunters killing him. Once again, you are accountable for the loss of human life and the consequences of the law, as interpreted by a jury, and believe me, the prosecution will attempt to throw the book at you. Our CCW instructor gave several examples of situations that third party individuals used deadly force to help what appeared to be a threatening situation, but were either mistaken, or ended up firing at the wrong guy. For example, what if one of the hunters is carrying an AR for personal protection, and it is actually him who is holding the Illegal at gunpoint. The illegal could even be dressed just like a hunter, but from your standpoint, it appears the bad guy is the one with the gun. My recommendation is that if you ever think you could be in a situation where you would choose to use deadly force to defend yourself or others, understand clearly what the law states, and use that to guide your decisions, and not what you think makes sense. Many times what makes sense is not supported by the law. I am not pointing any fingers here, just trying to convey that it is important to do everything we can to stay within the law, and hold human life in the highest regard.

[bobbyo]

Hammy and Bryan Payne, Thanks for your measured remarks it calmed me down slightly. Really where do people come off saying there going to shoot human beings. What is the mentality of you morons.

Bob

[Jessedr]

I removed my reply as "it got the response" I was looking for. "I also have a CCW. and was in LAW ENFORCEMENT". Stay Safe and GOOD LUCK ON YOUR HUNTS. SEMPER FI., GUNG HO.