Coach Report post Posted October 8, 2009 Chris, thanks for bolstering my point, although it wasn't likely intentional. We each get to decide what constitutes "fair chase" and "ethics". Your definition probably won't match the guy or gal next to you. Some people draw the line at radios, others at mechanical heads. To some people shooting a buck at 700 yards with target turrets and a range finder is considered "fair chase" while others think it isn't. You're not going to find consensus on any of the issues that divide hunters - period. The minute any ONE of us starts trying to define ethics and fair chase for ALL of us, we become divided, and weaker. I guarantee there are hunters out there who would be more than happy to point out how much purer their form of hunting is than yours, unless you're jabbing them with a hand-knapped spear while wearing a loin cloth. Just my $.02. Jason Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bowhuntinmaniac Report post Posted October 8, 2009 You guys are just givin' G&F more ammunition fer their fight with us soon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 8, 2009 Jason I know I have watched old Bartta with his longbow.... and I am not trying to say that what I feel is right for everyone out there but In my definition of fairchase it comes to my beliefs that any thing that uses the deers own senses to modify his behavior to a predictable one by us i.e. using bait and attractants is not fair chase .... I do not agree that things we use to imrove ourself and improving our own odds such as scopes w/ turrets or mapping your yardage out to 1000 yards or masking our own sent takes away from it being fair chase ... I think, And this is just personally me that if I use anything to alter the GAMES NORMAL BEHAIVORS it lessens the experience of the hunt ... Like I said it is legal And I don't have issue for anyone who uses bait it is just not my thing and a change in the laws would not effect me or hurt me in any way .... I guess I still have that unaswered question though on why if so many feel so strongly on this and not having it taken away why do so many of the same guys shun Those who choose to do the same exact thing on those high fenced ranches .... I don't quiet get that ... Again on any game with a home range of only a couple miles on a 50+ square mile ranch the fences would be a non issue except on the extreme outer edges .... Just how I see it and not in no way taking away from what and how you do it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted October 8, 2009 so, using a cow call to lure in a rutting bull elk is not fair chase either? What about a deer grunt or rattling horns?By doing so, you are altering his natural behavior and using a sound as an attractant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 8, 2009 With a call you are not altering his natural behavior it is the games natural behaivor that MAY bring him in it is his same senses that will send him away when he feels something is not right .... The games natural behaivor makes it possible for a call or rattling to work at certain times(the sounds exist at those times in their range) .... but not everytime .... however when you put sweet corn out in the middle of the forest where it will never grow and especially with molasses mixed on it and keep refilling it or salt mineral licks in areas that they were non existant in nature .... the day in day out feeding and having that now made available will change the feeding habits and feeding patterns to one that is highly predictable .... With what percent do you know if .... when .... and where a buck or bull is going to come in with a call or rattling I gaurantee it is not a fraction as predictable as a recorded bait hole that will bring game in repeatedly .... you may have to wait days in that same spot but 9 out of 10 times those deer or elk will make it back unless something changes big such as a predator or a hunter already snuffing them out ..... with that call you are not forming a predictable pattern throughout an entire off season and setting up your blind to shoot em at your supper table..... Thanks for playing devils advocate and I see where you were going and agree it is very grey and as with AZone I agree on everyone is different but the diversity shows that there are many ways to hunt and whatever happens some may have to adapt..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 8, 2009 On another note I think the practice of creating BAIT HOLES is in a big part why we see alot of the BS over this is my spot or area to hunt and creates many of the issues that take place with hunters every year when everyone gets ready to drop the drawers and piss on the four corners surrounding the dinner tables they have been setting up the entire off season .... I understand the work they must go through to do it and in no way do I think keeping the dinner table ready and full til the deer or bulls last supper would be an easy task .... but it gives insight why so many get so territorial about their areas and almost makes sense on why they do it .... But it still does not make it right ...... I feel AZone and others point out these are the differences that divide us and manytimes makes hunting a little less fun ..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bowsniper Report post Posted October 8, 2009 you guys are just plain silly, remember, united we stand, divided we fall. What he said! We each get to decide what constitutes "fair chase" and "ethics". Your definition probably won't match the guy or gal next to you. Some people draw the line at radios, others at mechanical heads. To some people shooting a buck at 700 yards with target turrets and a range finder is considered "fair chase" while others think it isn't. You're not going to find consensus on any of the issues that divide hunters - period. The minute any ONE of us starts trying to define ethics and fair chase for ALL of us, we become divided, and weaker. I guarantee there are hunters out there who would be more than happy to point out how much purer their form of hunting is than yours, unless you're jabbing them with a hand-knapped spear while wearing a loin cloth. Jason What he said! Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 9, 2009 I am still waiting to hear from one of you guys that are so pro baiting why do so many of you same guys bash and lessen the validity of a hunt in a High Fenced Ranch that has feeders food troughs and controlled water sources... Why Do so many seem to give them such a less than respectful Stigma... Think it would be interesting to know why is it any different ???? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GameHauler Report post Posted October 9, 2009 I am still waiting to hear from one of you guys that are so pro baiting why do so many of you same guys bash and lessen the validity of a hunt in a High Fenced Ranch that has feeders food troughs and controlled water sources... Why Do so many seem to give them such a less than respectful Stigma... Think it would be interesting to know why is it any different ???? Do a search for fence and find out how many post there on that then do a search for salt and look at the hundreds of posts on it. I am not sure why you are using the fence for defense on this topic. No one has made comment about the ranches because it does not mean anything to us regarding this topic as there are none I know of in AZ other than a hog hunts in southern AZ. The ranches are run year round by a crew or rancher for the purpose of bringing in clients for prophet unlike us that work or butts off trying to establish a little spot away from the Bazilian hunters that the Comission has brought into the units with their opportunity BS. I Will not make another post on this Topic as it always goes the same way. As stated" united we stand, divided we fall" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted October 9, 2009 So man made sounds are not an attractant, but salt is. Gotcha. What about a g&F trick tank in an area that would otherwise have no water. Fair or not? With a call you are not altering his natural behavior it is the games natural behaivor that MAY bring him in it is his same senses that will send him away when he feels something is not right .... The games natural behaivor makes it possible for a call or rattling to work at certain times(the sounds exist at those times in their range) .... but not everytime .... however when you put sweet corn out in the middle of the forest where it will never grow and especially with molasses mixed on it and keep refilling it or salt mineral licks in areas that they were non existant in nature .... the day in day out feeding and having that now made available will change the feeding habits and feeding patterns to one that is highly predictable .... With what percent do you know if .... when .... and where a buck or bull is going to come in with a call or rattling I gaurantee it is not a fraction as predictable as a recorded bait hole that will bring game in repeatedly .... you may have to wait days in that same spot but 9 out of 10 times those deer or elk will make it back unless something changes big such as a predator or a hunter already snuffing them out ..... with that call you are not forming a predictable pattern throughout an entire off season and setting up your blind to shoot em at your supper table..... Thanks for playing devils advocate and I see where you were going and agree it is very grey and as with AZone I agree on everyone is different but the diversity shows that there are many ways to hunt and whatever happens some may have to adapt..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 9, 2009 OK all YOU MASTER BAITERS are right .... Guess I need to change my ways and beliefs !!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 9, 2009 You will spin everything to your point of view and thats cool ... just kinda sad that so many hunters seem to think the only way they can hunt is to ambush conditioned prey ..... that they are feeding nutrients and food sources wich do not occure naturally in the area the deer are in ..... Maybe we need some Colby Coues ..... Game Hauler and desert bull can make sure they are corn fed and they can keep a trough of beer for them to drink and every once in a while if they can catch them give em a massage to get a nice even fat distribution just the way we do our colby beef .... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 9, 2009 Just because my beliefs our not the same as yours and I express it ... it is not to belittle you nor anyone else .... and I know alot of old timers that have hunted this state for generations that feel the baiting thing is a joke too .... My opnion while it is mine is not only shared by me as yours is not just shared by you and as I sated many times if you do it good for you .... but I dopn't have to agree with it and those who don't agree with you do not need to patronized either .... So we will leave it at that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GameHauler Report post Posted October 9, 2009 You will spin everything to your point of view and thats cool ... just kinda sad that so many hunters seem to think the only way they can hunt is to ambush conditioned prey ..... that they are feeding nutrients and food sources wich do not occure naturally in the area the deer are in ..... Maybe we need some Colby Coues ..... Game Hauler and desert bull can make sure they are corn fed and they can keep a trough of beer for them to drink and every once in a while if they can catch them give em a massage to get a nice even fat distribution just the way we do our colby beef .... Oh Boy, am I going to stay out of that one You my friend just dug your grave by the other members. Op's I made another post Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Str8Shot Report post Posted October 9, 2009 I love the defensivness and the threats .... Oh no I dug My Grave!!!! What am I to do ..... Not practice my 1st Amendment rights ... Not disagree with the masses of clique hunters here .... I don't think most of the users of the site are that shallow .... but seems like you may be able to speak for them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
