Any Worries?

[desertdog]

Okay let me start off by saying I am not a bow hunter and do not plan on being one anytime soon. However I had a discussion with my best friend well he is more my brother than my best friend but I digress. He has a concern that all these HUGE bucks being taken and posted on sites such as this may lead to the stop of the over the counter archery tags due to the increase of out of state hunters coming here to take a trophy.

 

Interesting thought, I can say I would hate to see that even though I am not a archery hunter but I would also hate to see all the great posts from good hunters with their hogs. I don't know, what do you all think. Its a good debate I think.

[bobbyo]

Okay let me start off by saying I am not a bow hunter and do not plan on being one anytime soon. However I had a discussion with my best friend well he is more my brother than my best friend but I digress. He has a concern that all these HUGE bucks being taken and posted on sites such as this may lead to the stop of the over the counter archery tags due to the increase of out of state hunters coming here to take a trophy.

 

Interesting thought, I can say I would hate to see that even though I am not a archery hunter but I would also hate to see all the great posts from good hunters with their hogs. I don't know, what do you all think. Its a good debate I think.

 

We have discussed this before. I think G+F would enjoy an increase in over the counter out of state archery hunters as long as they are not successful. Most archery hunters resident and non resident are not successful. Success rate is 6%. Probably the worst success rate in the whole country. But your right, I believe the big deer being taken by archery may cause changes in archery regulations. Those changes will not be instituted because G+F is worried about extra hunters from out of state. They will be instituted for two reasons. First, There is a gun hunting bias that permeates at the commission and agency level. I believe they are getting complaints from gun hunters and guides stating that archers are stealing their trophies. All these 120 inch bucks that are being killed with a bow are being taken before they have a chance. Right? Second, some outfitters/guides have perfected their archery hunting methods which have significantly increased their success rate to a point that a client is almost guaranteed at least a shot at a Coues and a much better than 50% chance of harvesting one.

 

Of coarse I believe both these arguments are bogus. Most of the Big Coues are being taken in areas that are unhuntable with a rifle anyway. That is why you can find a 120 inch Coues. Duh! The second argument is bogus because it penalizes success, and yet their success has not raised the bow harvest figures significantly. Really I think G+F would like this solution. "Hey Archers, bow hunt all you want, Just don't kill anything!"

Bob

[Buckhunter]

I wouldn't worry about it. Like before in another thread the succsess rate is so low among bow huntersexcept in unit 22,23 they closed these units in December. Keep selling OTC. The state needs the money and Guides are benefiting to.

[AZantlerhead]

This is a legitimate worry.

 

As more and more hunters with bow in hand learn to hunt useing

 

#1 Scent control

#2 Stands/Blinds

#3 hours spent waiting in good spot

#4 Spot and stalk with radios and spotter.

#5 Rangefinders

#6 Super high tech bows and accessories

#7 awesome camo

#8 Scouting/cams

#9 Guides/outfitters

etc. etc.

I am saying this because obviously it's the way to get it done. As more and more hunters realize they are doing it all wrong(like myself). The success rates will skyrocket. Now, it can be done stillhunting, i.e the old fashioned way (as my father prooved with his forst bowkill in 20 years,Useing 20 yr old gear, a 216 muley, gift from God) but simply put, is a fat chance and the ultimate challenge.

 

Now I MADE myself practice good scent control and sat a tank( a good spot) for about 7 hours for one day this season and allmost got it done. If I would have had a blind or stand I probly would have. Hunting the old fashioned way of hikeing and stinkin like a french whore house, trying to get on one just walking blind, following sign and trying to play the wind and pattern the animals, well- allmost impossible. I had one close call and a few glimpses of a monster in a whole week. Vs. not even a day hunting the new way and allmost getting it done.

 

As more and more hunters wise up and impliment the ways listed above, well. Theres gonna be allot more bloody arrows and deer on the ground.

This is allready a pattern I'm seeing this year. If hunters ditch the old ways of basically useing rabbit/quail tactics when bowhunting deer and useing the new ways, there will be more bowkilled deer hittin the dirt(even if it rose to 20%), forceing G&F to regulate the OTC tags. Either as limited OTC first come first serve tags( I hope they do this first). Or completely skipping this step and going to the draw Like the BAB and unit1. Anyone whos not worried about this is, well I strongly disagree, because they are allready doing it! Merely expirimenting, but still.

 

I have learned more in one day this season than all past seasons combined. Also have taken great notice to how others have gottin it done.

The deer are smarter these days and hunters are wiseing up too, hunting lazy and smart-instead of hard and dumb. I had My Uncle, Cousin and friend all hunting the Unit 1 archery tag, For three straight weeks!!! I told them of my new epiphany of bow tactics and allmost sealing the deal in 1 day useing them in my unit, but they did not listen, continued simply hikeing around, smelling to high heaven(camp fire,beer,cigarettes,food,sweat) and hopeing to get lucky after jumping umm up. Needless to say they came home with nadda. And so did I because I only used my new tactics for one day out of 8 hunted, but prooved to myself what will work in the future, and what will not.

 

As more and more Hunters like myself graduate to the new ways of bowhunting you will see a spike in the success rates and G&F will be forced to limit the tags in one way or another. This is their worst fear I'm sure. They would love to keep selling 20,000 avg archery tags and keep there 6% success rates. But they will be forced to regulate tags as hunters wise up and get fed up with hikeing around with a bow and experienceing no results, I did find some sheds and came close useing the my old ways. But after the closest wildlife encounters and an allmost archery buck useing the new ways(in ! day!), I'm doing a 180 on bow tactics and I'm sure my Success with bow on deer will do a 180 as well. Now apply this to the shear numbers of OTC tags and those hunters starting to use tactics listed above, yes it will force G&F to regulate archery tags as more and more hunters learn to be better with their bows. The same as the evolution of the General tags and folks learning how to be snipers instead of jumping umm up and hopeing to get a shot off like in the Oregon trail days when deer were as dumb and common as rabbits.

 

I've had ZERO success stillhunting, thus I have seen the light, Stand hunting in a tree or blind and haveing a spottter doing spot and stalk is definatly the way to go, allthough nothing is a given, I can see by others examples and my experience this season it highly increases your odds for success, as hunters continue to demonstrate,(Myself as well in the future).

 

So I will force myself to be lazy in a stand/blind practice scent control and get it done in the future(the most challenging way to hunt for very active person). As more of us doing the stillhunting thing get fed up with bagging zilch or maybe one in 20yrs. you will see more and more OTC tags filled Useing tactics listed, thus the need to regulate or due away with them alltogether to balance things out.

 

So I was one of the many who didn't get it done but probly learned how to get it done in the future. So I'm looking forward to my general hunt and time to be a sniper for a week and use my ML just for kicks. You can bet your keister I'll be out in January useing new bow tactics too!

 

As more Hunters learn to effectively bowhunt there will be an increase in Deer on the ground, and statistically more Monsters on the ground. As we've seen this season.

[Snapshot]

I think the people taking the biggest archery bucks are the ones putting in the time and hard work to be successful. Days of pre-season scouting, trail cams, etc. and they are the exception and not the rule.

 

The average archery hunter, resident or non resident, probably will not have much of an impact on sucess ratios, regardless of how many may flock here because of pictures seen on the internet.

 

If a non-resident thinks they can zip out here and bag a bruiser of a buck with little knowledge of the deer or area they are going to hunt, then they are probably in for a rude awakening to western Coues hunting, unless of course they hire a guide.

 

G&F has already addressed the archery hunting in some units by turning them into draw hunts, and they may add more to that list if overhunting/overcrowding becomes an issue.

 

 

[bobbyo]

Dustin,

 

I disagree with a few of your points. First Success rate for archery deer will never sky rocket in this state. As snapshot pointed out it is hard work being successful at bowhunting. Most hunters are not crazy enough to put in that kind of effort. In addition blind hunting or tree stand hunting is not a "lazy" way to hunt. Ask the guys who have put in 100 plus unsuccessful hours this season if they feel they were lazy. Waiting long periods of time without seeing anything is hard work! Personally, I can't do it for longer than 4 hours. This is why I mostly spot and stalk. My hat goes off to those "lazy"hunters that can sit a stand all day long. They are able to accomplish something that I simply cannot do, so I have a lot of respect for the hunters that can.

Bob

[AZantlerhead]

Dustin,

 

I disagree with a few of your points. First Success rate for archery deer will never sky rocket in this state. As snapshot pointed out it is hard work being successful at bowhunting. Most hunters are not crazy enough to put in that kind of effort. In addition blind hunting or tree stand hunting is not a "lazy" way to hunt. Ask the guys who have put in 100 plus unsuccessful hours this season if they feel they were lazy. Waiting long periods of time without seeing anything is hard work! Personally, I can't do it for longer than 4 hours. This is why I mostly spot and stalk. My hat goes off to those "lazy"hunters that can sit a stand all day long. They are able to accomplish something that I simply cannot do, so I have a lot of respect for the hunters that can.

Bob

 

By skyrocket I simply meant it would get better as bowhunters hunt smarter and put in more dedication. If 1 in 5, 20% rates appeared i guess it would qulify for AZ anyway, as "skyrocket", bad word choice on my part. But even that would be three fold the number of deer taken demanding for limited tags or closed late seasons.

 

And yes putting in long hours trying not to fall asleep when game is idle is THE hardest kind of hunting for myself as well( hey you wanna go sheddin?)lol. So I know how you feel about sitting for a mere 4 hours. Specialy when theres sheds to be found while moving. My hats off as well to those (srry bad word choice again) maybe not "lazy" but Patient hunters. As it's my biggest down fall that I'm realizing these days.

So some (most people)would consider it hard hunting and torture to hike all day, I consider being patient and sitting still all day hard hunting and torture.

Sitting and glassing doesn't bother me, but sitting and waiting does. But is obviously how those "patient" srry not lazy, hunters are stickin it to us hyper active bow hunters. And I can't wait to try spot and stalk bowhunting. My General tag unit would be great for this I think, as well a tree stand in one of the large oaks right over the darn spring I shot my buck last year. I climbed up the tree to see if I could drill him with the rifle from 5 yds, but after hours sitting there realized i couldn't even see through my scope from this close and moved to some boulders overlookin it 220 yds away. . And yes I missed once(steep angle), luckily got another chambered and on it's way fast enough that was true.

 

Srry I should have picked better words, I have the utmost respect for Patient , thus successfull bowhunters. I guess patience would be a factor in a successfull spot and stalk as well........ Thus the challenge at hand. I too see that putting miles under your boots is hard work but hours in the stand is just as hard if not harder for guys like you and me.

 

Sounds like we are agreed as of how too bag one with a bow( just wait ) but just need the self discipline to do it. I watch hunting show after hunting show of guys stickin umm doing just that,and it makes me sick knowing how easy it is for some to do that, and how hard it is for me to just simply, wait.

Maybe a bottle of nyquil would help me sit there . Another reason for the increase of big bucks taken is guys just simply not shooting the smaller ones, These are patient guys who would probly tag out anyway(or guided hunters) but you get the point I'm sure.

 

Thanks for correcting my bad word choices Bob and allowing me to better explain. BTW your avatar is a STUD!! Hope to get a muley of that caliber some day, but for now my focus will be on the allmighty Coues and to become deadly on a 6 inch target out to 200yds at wierd angles with my ML, and try to get something similar to last years. Ohh darn, Ive set my goals a bit high, but hey ,if get half that, A 60inch or so I'll be happy.

 

CANT WAIT FOR LATE BOW SEASON TOO!! Ohh this Hunting thing, it is an incureable disease isn't it? Well if theres a cure, I don't want it!!

[desertdog]

I think I know what Dustin was trying to say about the "lazy" part. I don't think he was saying if you sit a stand for hours on end you are lazy. I think he was trying to say that compared to hiking all day up and down canyons chasing the deer around that sitting a stand is not as much physical work. I think he grew up like me with the mind set that if you want to see deer and increase your chances of taking one then you need to get your but out there and find one. I guess its kind of the old timers mentality. My grandpa grew up hunting that way taught my dad how to hunt that way and he well passed it on down to me. For years I thought that the guys just walking into a good vantage point, sitting on their butt glassing all day were lazy. I know now the truth and have taught my dad a thing or two when it comes to this strategy. It is not lazy at all just the best way to see the most amount of deer.

 

As far as the topic, I think that archery may come to a draw one day and it may be soon. But I don't think that the Internet and web sites will be the driving factor. I think that archery overall is becoming a much more popular way to hunt. And I don't think it is because of the great bucks that are being taken. I feel that it has grown in popularity so much because of the exposure it has gotten on TV hunting shows and for the fact that it opens up so many more hunting opportunity's for the sportsman. I know a lot of guys that look at it and say hey I will go ahead and hunt with my rifle but before my rifle hunt starts I can get out with the bow and see if I have any luck. And also if I don't get one during my rifle hunt then I can be right back in the woods with my bow and hunt the rut. So if it does come to a draw someday I don't think we can blame sites like this one. It may play a roll in it but a very small one. Just my thoughts

[AZantlerhead]

I think I know what Dustin was trying to say about the "lazy" part. I don't think he was saying if you sit a stand for hours on end you are lazy. I think he was trying to say that compared to hiking all day up and down canyons chasing the deer around that sitting a stand is not as much physical work. I think he grew up like me with the mind set that if you want to see deer and increase your chances of taking one then you need to get your but out there and find one. I guess its kind of the old timers mentality. My grandpa grew up hunting that way taught my dad how to hunt that way and he well passed it on down to me. For years I thought that the guys just walking into a good vantage point, sitting on their butt glassing all day were lazy. I know now the truth and have taught my dad a thing or two when it comes to this strategy. It is not lazy at all just the best way to see the most amount of deer.

 

As far as the topic, I think that archery may come to a draw one day and it may be soon. But I don't think that the Internet and web sites will be the driving factor. I think that archery overall is becoming a much more popular way to hunt. And I don't think it is because of the great bucks that are being taken. I feel that it has grown in popularity so much because of the exposure it has gotten on TV hunting shows and for the fact that it opens up so many more hunting opportunity's for the sportsman. I know a lot of guys that look at it and say hey I will go ahead and hunt with my rifle but before my rifle hunt starts I can get out with the bow and see if I have any luck. And also if I don't get one during my rifle hunt then I can be right back in the woods with my bow and hunt the rut. So if it does come to a draw someday I don't think we can blame sites like this one. It may play a roll in it but a very small one. Just my thoughts

 

+1, if anything it's gonna be the Outdoor channell and the likes that spread the knowledge of ditching the old ways of beating the brush and haveing the discipline to sit still long enough in a stand or blind till the golden boy arrives that will increase the big bucks taken and overall success. Thus the need for limited tags.

 

I think hunters like Chuck Adams are the exception who have the old ways down to an absolute Frigin science. And well, He really is the king. Theres not another bowhunter that can even hold a candle to that guy. He's half Mt. Lion i think. . Even The Nuge, Waddell,Bill Jordan, Jackie B., Shockey etc. etc. really on a stand/blind to acheive success with a bow on deer. Low and behold , it works, I gotta try it!!

 

And as I stated as more hunters turn to the new methods more and more(and take bowhunting serious with effort/time/dedication), hunters will return with a bloody arrow instead of tag soup, and more brutes taken knowing they simply gotta wait for the big one . Thus the need for limited archery tags will arrise. The Bab and unit 1 were simply overrun with people knowing there were concentrations of deer there and nice cool temps, thus increaseing the deer sightings and maby shot opps, i dunno? BUT NOT IF YOU USE THE WRONG TACTICS!! people useing the new ways and more successfull tactics( Mt. Lion Chuck don't count) will be the real reason. And God help us all, in a state with a 6% average. we need every advantage of the new ways we can possibly use. But G&F sees it the opposite, I think. For instance trying to ban baiting on deer, Isn't it hard enough in az allready? I guarantee If we as a whole become better bowhunters they will limit the tags to balance it out. Or cut the archery season in half, or close the late season, or due away with general hunts, whatever it takes to keep the balance as they see it, Too retain maximum funding and minimum harvest? I love G&F for what they do for wildlife, and at the same time despise them for keeping the success rates low, sub par, and substandard compared to the rest of the nation. They have a system that works for them, and will change it as needed to retain the maximum funding possible while trying to keep overall success low to increase Herd numbers and slowly but surely make overall hunting in AZ better? They are stuck in between a rock and a hard place while manageing herds and keeping hunters interested enough to buy tags... Overall I love Hunting AZ and G&F probly know what's best for the Wildlife and hunters alike. But I question this at times.

 

Heres an idea G&F, offer a bounty on those dang Mt. Lions!!!!!! Increase deer herds and success rates and tags sold all in one!!