Carmen Mountain Whitetail

[BowNut]

Was watching Hank Parker 3D the other day and Hank was hunting with the Michael Waddell in Mexico for whitetail. They called them Carmon Mountain Whitetail. I had never heard of these before and Hank said they were a cross breed of Coues and a South Tx. whitetail what ever they are. They said Micheal shot the new record #1 Carmen Mountain Whitetail and Hanks was #3 I think they said. Just looked like South Tx. deer to me.

[JMP]

I don't know that I'd call them a crossbreed, a sub-species, just like the coues or a texas whitetail. just inhabit a different area. At least that's what I got from the Leonard Lee Rue book, or maybe Hefelfinger's.... I forget.

[Kilimanjaro]

Ive seen them in the Chinati mtns in the Big Bend area of west TX while chasing aoudads.. They behave and live in the exact same type of terrain and country as coues do. They are a subspecies of WT just like coues. It's unfortunate that B&C doesnt recognize them like they do coues cuz a 110 Carmen Mtn WT is a brute!

 

I have a buddy in Dallas who shot a 130 typical BRUTE on a ranch in far western Coahuila, Mex back in 2002. It was an amazing Carmen mtn WT.

[CouesWhitetail]

Jim Heffelfinger discusses them in his book Deer of the Southwest.

 

here is some info on Carmen WT that he emailed me awhile back:

"There is a smaller form of whitetail (Carmen Mt Whitetail) that is intermediate between the Coues and the South Texas whitetail that lives in the Sierra del Carmen, Chisos, Davis, and surrounding small mountain ranges. There is also the desert mule deer that lives in the Big Bend area"

 

 

Scottyboy, got any pics of your buddy's buck?

 

 

Amanda

 

[billrquimby]

The SCI Record Book originally had a separate category for Carmen Mountain whitetails, but now lumps this subspecies in its "Mexican white-tailed deer" category with the eight other whitetail races found in Mexico. Below is from the current book:

 

 

 

NOTES The SCI Mexican white-tailed deer category consists of the following subspecies: Carmen Mountains whitetail (carminis), Miquihuan whitetail (miquihuanensis), Veracruz whitetail (veraecrucis), highland Mexican whitetail (mexicanus), rain forest whitetail (toltecus), Oaxaca whitetail (oaxacensis), Sinaloa whitetail (sinaloae), Acapulco whitetail (acapulcensis), and the Veracruz and Oaxaca populations of the lowland Mexican whitetail (thomasi). The name mexicanus Gmelin, 1788 has priority.

 

DESCRIPTION The Carmen Mountains whitetail (carminis) is a smaller race, measuring up to 31 inches (79 cm) at the shoulder. Winter coat is grayish with a darker dorsal line. Smaller than the Coues whitetail, with a longer and narrower skull and paler legs. Much smaller than the Texas whitetail (as much as 12 inches (30 cm) shorter and 10 inches (25 cm) lower at the shoulder), with a smaller and narrower skull, but with a longer hind foot. Tail is slightly shorter than in the Texas whitetail, but appears long in relation to the small body and is pure white underneath. Antlers are small, moderately open, and have short tines. Originally recognized only from the Chisos Mountains in Big Bend National Park in Texas, and from the adjacent Sierra del Carmen and Serranias del Burro in northern Coahuila. Subsequently found north of the park in the Rosillos, Christmas and Del Norte mountains in Brewster County: in the Chinati and Sierra Vieja mountains in Presidio county; and even extending as far as the Davis Mountains northwest of Fort Davis in Jeff Davis County. Carmen Mountains whitetails are seldom found lower than 4,000 feet (1,200 m), and are more commonly at 6,000-7,000 feet (1,800-2,100 m). Texas whitetails and mule deer may share the same general areas, but texanus are at lower elevations and mule deer are in the valley bottoms. There is evidence of some hybridization between carminis and texanus north and northwest of Big Bend N.P., but carminis genes are said to be predominate in most cases.

 

Bill Quimby

[Guest 300ultramag.]

Bownut,

 

 

Off topic a little bit how do you like ur 15s Im looking to pick a pair up just wondering how you like em'

[BowNut]

Thanks for all the great info guys/gals.

 

The 15's are working great. I like em A LOT.

[azcoues]

I shot a whitetail down in sasabe in 36b once and it was a 4x5 but it was like 5 inches wide and tines were 2 inches long little tiny basket rack and the body was tiny what kind was that deer maybe a mutant deer or one of them cross breed s.

[johnnie blaze]

I shot a whitetail down in sasabe in 36b once and it was a 4x5 but it was like 5 inches wide and tines were 2 inches long little tiny basket rack and the body was tiny what kind was that deer maybe a mutant deer or one of them cross breed s.

Might have been a fantail...dont know if they still recognize this subspecies anymore.

[Arizona Griz]

I shot a whitetail down in sasabe in 36b once and it was a 4x5 but it was like 5 inches wide and tines were 2 inches long little tiny basket rack and the body was tiny what kind was that deer maybe a mutant deer or one of them cross breed s.

Might have been a fantail...dont know if they still recognize this subspecies anymore.

 

Fantail was never a subspecies. It was just a local name for a small Coues deer with a small basket rack.

 

[AZP&Y]

Bownut,

 

I saw the same show, boy they hammered em' with that C'mere deer... I mean these bucks were all over that stuff... Of course they sponsor the stuff, but That really made the difference during that hunt for sure!

 

 

AzP&Y

[BowNut]

Bownut,

 

I saw the same show, boy they hammered em' with that C'mere deer... I mean these bucks were all over that stuff... Of course they sponsor the stuff, but That really made the difference during that hunt for sure!

 

 

AzP&Y

Ya they seemed to love the stuff.

The way Hank seemed to be joking around about his certificate for shooting the third biggest buck ever shot I was not sure if was a true species of deer or if there was some kinda joke i was missing.

[catclaw]

I once saw two bucks in the back of a Scout pickup (International) at the circle K in Superior. One deer was a forky and they other a 3x3 with eyeguards. Neither buck weighed over 40# on the hoof and both had antlers the diameter of a yellow #2 school pencil. The 3 pt was about 9" wide. His teeth were worn to nothing- an old buck. The old guy who had them wouldn't tell me what range they were from. Amazingly small- think of how tiny the bed is on an International Scout!!!

[AntlerObsession]

I shot a whitetail down in sasabe in 36b once and it was a 4x5 but it was like 5 inches wide and tines were 2 inches long little tiny basket rack and the body was tiny what kind was that deer maybe a mutant deer or one of them cross breed s.

Might have been a fantail...dont know if they still recognize this subspecies anymore.

 

Fantail was never a subspecies. It was just a local name for a small Coues deer with a small basket rack.

 

The Fantail may not be recognized as an official subspecies, but the 2 I have seen had as much or more difference from Coues than Coues do from Texas WT, or the other 9 Mexican subspecies.

[Red Rabbit]

Bownut,

Do a search here on cwt for the Carmen Mtn deer. Thread is probably 4-5 years old. Good info too in addition to what Bill wrote.

 

Doug~RR