125 gr. 30 cal. question

[lionhunter]

Ok, here is my thought. Many of us shoot/ reload for 30 cal rifles from 308, o6, 300 mags, on up to 30-378. Most shoot 150 gr., 165, or 180 gr. bullets. (I shoot 150 in a 300wsm, and 180 in the win mag, accubonds in both) My question is "WHY DON'T WE SEE ANYONE SHOOTING 125 GR? I looked up the ballistics in the nosler manual, and the 125 shoot 1inch flatter at 300, 3 inches flatter at 400, 6 flatter at 500, and 9 inches flatter at 600. I understand about KE, and B/C and yes it is better in the heavier bullets. I think for coues deer/ antelope the 125 is enough energy. Why don't we hear more people shooting them?????????

 

Give me some insigh...

Whitey

[Red Rabbit]

Considering a 125 BT @ 3600fps from a 300 mag, and a 180gr BT @ 3000fps:

 

With the 125 BT, the recoil will also be less. But the wind drift will be more 19" @600yds for the 180gr, and 22" @600yds for the 125gr. Wind is harder to judge than distance especially with an LRF.

 

With a rangefinder and turrets or ballistic plex reticle, a difference in drop is moot.

Without either, a faster bullet may be a good consideration. At 800 yards the 125 shows a drop of 98" and the 180gr shows 123"

 

But I think the key will be bullet construction. The 180 BT has a thicker jacket than the 125. I suspect a 125 at 100 yards @ 3350 fps could make an ugly mess. You might load both up in your WM and shoot both into some wet newspaper of phone books at 100yards and report your findings.

[lionhunter]

Thanks Red Rabbit, I was hoping you would reply. As a matter of fact, I was going to pm this question to you directly, but figured I would put it out there to all.

I agree with everything you said about wind drift, and the bullet drop. The drop is easier to calculate, and with the scopes available today a "flat shooting "rifle, in some regards, is less important than in the past.

 

It just confuses me that more people don't talk about the 125 gr for coues deer out of the 30 cal. Many people rant and rave about the 25. cal so and so shooting a 110 gr or 115 gr. so fast and flat, and how it it the perfect Anelope, and coues medicine. Or the 6 mm, 6.5, or even 270 cal bullets that shoot between a 100- 130 gr. bullet at approximately the speed you can get a 125 gr. 30 cal. to do. I am very happy with the results I am getting out of my loads, (150 and 180 accubonds) but I think I am going to load up some 125 and see what I can get them to do.

 

Anyone that has messed with the 125.gr 30 cal feel free to chime in

 

Thanks

Whitey

[.270]

i shot an 'o6 quite a bit for a few years. a colt built on a mauser action, had a micro-grooove barrel. i shot 125's almost exclusivley. real fast and real accurate. they kill the heck outta deer and elk. i always just used sierras and 4320 powder. one thing to keep in mind tho, .30 caliber is very sensitive to barrel twist. a rifle that shoots a 165 or 180 well, may be twisted too quick to stabilize a stubby 125 well. as far as the bullet killing, they do fine. i don't know what the twist was in my old colt, but it shot 125's well. i remember when i was a kid a lot of old timers talked about the wide range of bullets available for an '06. you could buy factory loads from 110 to 220 grain qnd they would brag about how they could hunt anything from coyotes to moose with one. well, you can, but most rifles won't shoot all those bullet weights real good because there is such a wide range in barrel twists needed to stabilize the different weights. for a 220 you need like a 1 in 8" and for a 110 you should shoot probably a 1 in 15". most '06's are 1 in 10 or 12 and will shoot 150 to 180 well. Lark.

[308Nut]

BC's and sectional density are too low when they are of the 308 diameter at 125 grains. They work good to a point then run out of steam.

 

FWIW, 270, you do not need an 8 twist for ANY production 30 cal bullet. Not even the 240 grain. A 10x in a 300 mag will handle the 240 with ease. Sierra says 9 but that is for the slower 30 cals. The 220's can be shot with 11 twists flawlessly.

[firstcoueswas80]

Believe me from personal experience... a 125 BT out of even a measly ole 30-06 makes a nasty mess of a coues.. Even way out there at like oh say 400 yards.. Hit in the shoulder or not.

 

Like I said... believe me...

[.270]

oh well, i've read a lotta charts that say you should use an 8 inch for a 220. whatever. a 220 gr .30 is about useless anyway. the only times i've seen anyone try a 220 it was a miserable failure. if you need a bullet that big you oughta move up to a .338. i've seen guys use 220's in an '06 and it's pathetic. you might get some performance in a .30/378 or a warbird but that is a big long bullet with a lotta barrel drag. Lark.

[singleshot]

My wife and kids took quite a few deer and pigs with 125 grain nosler ballistic tips out of a singleshot 30 - 30. They didn't shoot great but I figured they shot about as well as the gun would. It is a scoped rifle and we had a few kills at 300 yards. Turned that old 30 - 30 into a pretty decent western deer rifle. Of course you can only load that bullet in a bolt gun or SINGLESHOT, no levers.

[.270]

singleshot, sierra makes a 125 flat gr hollowpoint in .307 for a .30/30. they turn the little thing into a decent rifle. i've shot em for years and they work great in a tube mag. Lark.

[catclaw]

oh well, i've read a lotta charts that say you should use an 8 inch for a 220. whatever. a 220 gr .30 is about useless anyway. the only times i've seen anyone try a 220 it was a miserable failure. if you need a bullet that big you oughta move up to a .338. i've seen guys use 220's in an '06 and it's pathetic. you might get some performance in a .30/378 or a warbird but that is a big long bullet with a lotta barrel drag. Lark.

 

 

A 220 grain SMK out of a 300 mag is dynamite on big game. Desert diesel's son killed his bull two years ago with that bullet at 750 yds and it worked about perfect. Don't kid yourself on the bigger bullets.

 

20 years ago I would have agreed with the 125 grain bullets- we didn't have affordable LASER range finders and we needed every bit of trajectory help we could get. If 125s were good, there would be some serious shooters and hunters using them. There aren't. Pretty much everyone in the long range community is either using SMKs or a VLD such as Berger or JLK. If it has to have a hunting name, then they are using Ballistic tips, Accubonds, Sciroccos etc.

 

For long range shooting, you should use the best combination of high ballistic coefficient and energy you can accurately get.

 

As far as bullet twist- I have never even heard of an 8 twist 30 caliber barrel. A 1-16" twist will stabilize most 125s and they are used a LOT at SHORT RANGE benchrest- not at long range. They shoot phenomenally small groups with them- out to 200 yds- after that, the wind eats them alive.

 

Some of the lighter bullets have the same jackets as the heavier bullets and have a disproportionately high BC (108 grain Lapua Scenar comes to mind) it has the same jacket as the 124 and 130 but can be pushed much faster. It makes a great mid-range bullet (600 yds).

 

Hope all this makes sense!

[lionhunter]

I shot my new 270 short mag today with 130 gr silver tip...... Needless to say I don't think I will ever need to mess with a lighter 30 cal. This thing shot gooooooood.3/4 inch 3 shot groups at 200 yard. That is with a trigger that needs some fine tuning, and I am not that good. Like I said earlier, I am very pleased with the 150 and 180 gr. 30 cal that I now shoot, I was just currious.

Whitey-

[.270]

i held a 1 in 8 today. they make em. Lark.

[308Nut]

i held a 1 in 8 today. they make em. Lark.

 

If you are refering of a factory rifle that utilizes an 8x barrel I would love to hear some references.

 

The only places to get 8x 30 cal barrels is from a custom barrel manufacturer. Yes they make them. They are also extreemly rare. The only guys that use them are either straight up idiots or guys that use very heavy solid copper bullets such as the ultra long 177 GS bullets or other custom all copper ultra long prjectiles. There just isnt much of a demand for an 8x 30 cal barrel these days.

 

 

Catclaw hit the nail on the head. When we didnt have laser RF's, the flatter the trajectory the better. Now that we have lasers, who cares. More BC and higher sectional densities offer more reliable terminal performance.

[.270]

i took my .300 to a guy today for a new barrel. we were talking about stuff and i mentioned a 1 in 8. he had one there, for a special application. the one he's getting me is sorta wierd twist too, 1 in 11. just for 165's. he said 8 inchers were rare but he'd fit up a few over the years. with all these new cannons in .30 cal i'd imagine they might be used a fair amount. guys using a warbird or a .30/.378 with big 220 solids or copper for african stuff would have a real need for one. when i made the statement about a 1 in 8 i was just trying to illustrate to folks that there are a buncha different twists for .30 cal and there isn't one single twist that is optimum for all weights. a lot of folks don't have any idea what barrel twist is. i saw a twist chart just a couple months ago that recomended a 1 in 8 for 220's. so i don't think folks are actually crazy to have one. i remember trying to shoot 110 gr '06 ammo. bullets were made for an m1 carbine. about 3 or 4 inches at 100 was about it. i remember one wierd thing. i had it sighted in with 150's and it would tear the bullseye out. with the 110's it hit several inches low and several inches to the left. once you get a .308 cal dialed in they are an accurate sucker. but different weight bullets will do weird things out of the same barrel. that's why a guy needs to be cognizant of what he has. my boy bought some bergers for his .264 mag. supposed to be great bullets. wouldn't shoot less than about 2 1/2 inches at a 100 yards. they were 130's and other 130's shot fine. but the berger is a lot longer than the other ones and needs about a 1/2 inch quicker twist to shoot right. we got to looking on the box and it even said it. that's why i like my .270. a 1 in 10 works fine for em all. Lark.

[308Nut]

11x works ok with 165's but isnt optimum, unless they are solid copper, even then its a tad fast for optimum performance. 11x is more optimum with 190-210 grain pills. 12-13x is a better choice if 165's are all that are being used. Green hill stability methods are dead.

 

I would be looking at the Lilja chart.

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/caliber_twist_rates.htm

 

They are a bit conservative but close. Berger bullets is also a good resource for twist needs. If you want to find the optimum twist for a given bullet, there are various computer applications to find the optimum stability factor for a given bullet. IMHO, this is the best method. They have proven true time and time again. You also have to remember that when you add the word cannon such as the 30-378 or 308 warbird, despite using even the heaviest bullets, optimum stability is acheived by going a bit slower NOT faster. Faster twists only takes away from potential accuracy, adds more spin drift on the long shots and in extreeme cases, lowers the BC of the projectiles. Spin the bullet optimally for the best long range results. Notice I said best results. Certainly you can acheive good results from a 2.0+ stability factor but 1.4-1.6 offers a wee bit better overall package. The added velocities of these cannons increases the stability factor versus a slower cartridge shooting the same bullets with the same twist.