AZGFD Double Standard

[El Fuego]

cmc,

 

Again, great post. Thank you again for offering your perspective and opinions. But, I think you have missed my point, which was; If you, or I were to legally take a bear and discard the animal as it was done in this situation, we would have to face legal consequences.

 

 

I fully understand your point but when we take an animal it's under the classification of hunting unless done illegally, when the States Department tasked with the management of game disposes of a game animal, or non game for that matter, it's under a completely different set of rules and guide lines.

 

Hunters are to follow rules set forth mostly under Title 17, the Department works under department policy and other guidelines.

 

Think of this the same as a Phoenix police officer compared to you or I. (I'm taking it for granted that you're not an LEO so go with me on this) You and I have different rules to follow and are held at much different standards in a court of law if we had to use deadly force vs. a Phoenix police officer. Just like a WM, which is an LEO, they work under and have much different regulations they work under than citizens of the state they are sworn to protect. Things we would do that a LEO does would put you and I behind bars but not a LEO but in return things we do we might only get a minor citation vs. a LEO could face a court case although we both did the same thing.

 

Does that mean I like that differance... nope not all the time, but I understand it and recognize why the difference is there.

 

cmc

 

Thanks again cmc. I am with you.

[GameHauler]

Maybe they could fast freeze it and give (sell) it to Cabelas

to make them feel a little better about the Dept.

making the right decision on their late applications

a couple years back

 

I am disturbed about how this went down

and does not help our cause any.

[El Fuego]

It could also be that the ear was tranquilized with drugs and was not fit for consumption by man nor beast. They still should have disposed of it in a more discreet location.

 

Your post reminds me of those who are too lazy and lack the character to dispose of a appliance, or other junk and trash appropriately. They choose to dump it off the side of the road as opposed to taking the items to the dump. The dump in this case seems much more fitting in comparison to the urban interface dump site, off the side of the road that was chosen for this bear. And once again, if we were to take the "easy road" and make the poor and lazy choice of dumping a legally taken bear in this manner, anyone of us doing so would be hammered.

[oldboy]

I found the bear. I wrote the letter, and as my correspondence dispalyed, I would like to give our Game and Fish dept. the opportunity to respond. I never intended for this to be made public. There are many issues regarding such a terrible incident. The letter is entirely composed from my experience and perspective. I believe the Game and Fish deserves a right to respond to me on this.

 

I'd just like to respond to all of you passionate hunters as I am, that we must uphold very high standards for our conduct in the field. Our sport depends on it. God bless!

[Ernesto C]

I found the bear. I wrote the letter, and as my correspondence dispalyed, I would like to give our Game and Fish dept. the opportunity to respond. I never intended for this to be made public. There are many issues regarding such a terrible incident. The letter is entirely composed from my experience and perspective. I believe the Game and Fish deserves a right to respond to me on this.

 

I'd just like to respond to all of you passionate hunters as I am, that we must uphold very high standards for our conduct in the field. Our sport depends on it. God bless!

 

Please let us know if they respond and what their answer is. Thanks.

 

Ernesto C

 

[audsley]

Personally, I'm all for G&F keeping expenses down. On the other hand, they could have gone to just a wee bit more effort to avoid confusing and alarming the citizenry. Next time how about a bag or two of lime and a shallow grave?

 

 

[desertdog]

I think this may be an isolated issue. I have heard of G&F officers contacting ranchers that they work with on a regular basis to ask them if they can dispose of troubled bears that they had to take out. They contact them to dump the remains on private property, that way the only people that will see it is the ranchers and the G&F officer that had to take the bear. If they cant use the carcass in any way I feel this is a good alternative. No chance of hikers or tree huggers happening across the animal. I feel our game department does a good job only taking animals that are a true threat to humans. I do think the choice to dispose of this bear was in this location was a bad one. Like all have said we have to be very careful and respectful of how we handle these very difficult situations. It could be a PR nightmare for the AZGFD and hunters alike if this were to get out to the general public and media.

[30-378shtr]

This incident is unfortunate. Can you imagine what the blow back could be if some of the anti's were the ones who had found this carcass? It is quite a shame how the department decided to handle the disposition of the carcass.

 

I believe that the department does indeed have double standards when it comes to their "official business". Take the issue of flying before or during a hunt for example. The department is so anti-flying that they will absolutely throw the book at someone for flying during scouting. Yet, their own department employees find a way to do this for their own personal gain. It was observed a couple years ago that a certain wildlife manager was "conducting official game surveys" during an early rut elk hunt. It just so happens that this same manager had an elk tag for the hunt the following week. How convenient. And once again, last January I personally observed a dept helicopter repeatedly fly over and HOVER over a herd of mule deer that I had stalked to within 100 yards of. I could have hit any of the four dept employees with a rock, that's how low they were hovering. And yet, it is absolutely against the law to harass wildlife, let alone during an active hunting season.

 

So yes, I believe the department has double standards for their actions.

[RHINO]

The sad part of 30-378's story is that they had hovered over the deer the first time at a higher distance and made their count without disturbing the nice buck that 30-378 and I were getting real close to. Then as we were closing the distance the helicopter came back and hovered at probable less than 100' above the deer and chased them off. There was no need to get that close or come back the second time other than to just look at the nice buck that we were about to shoot. Now if any of us had flown in there with our plane just to observe we would get the book thrown at us.

[ac guy]

Not that this is relavent to what took place but in reading the MOU between the USF&W and the AZG&F - if the G&F has a freshly killed elk or deer up near locations of wolf packs it's suggested to take the carcass close to the wolf pack and dump it so that the wolfs can feed on it. So after a WM loads and elk (usually solo) into their truck they are asked to haul it as far back from the road as they can?? Oh and they ask that the WM doesn't get any human sent on it if possible.

 

Policy in these cases is easy to write when your sitting in the office of the FS & G&F. Pretty hard to fulfill when put into practice.

 

 

 

cmc

 

Isn't it already loaded in the truck if they're taking it to a spot where wolves feed? Is it harder to dump it a mile off the road than on the road?

[hoghntr]

WOW, what a terrific way to make the hunting community look bad. i remember when i was a kid to young to hunt big game and not knowing you could harvest anything without antlers. my family was in Flagstaff area and drove past an abandoned campsite with 3 cow elk heads posted on sticks. 30 years later i still remember our disgusted feelings and anger at hunters who did such a thing. i can only assume that anyone else would feel the same way in this case. the man who stumbled accross this was disturbed and he is a hunter, what if he wasnt?? this means of disposal is just flat out WRONG! i understand dumping if thats the best theve got, but like this? in that location? with no head and (HANDS) as the anti-s might say... shame on you G&F arent we under enough criticism already???

[oldboy]

I'm sorry to say to anybody still following this but the AZ Game and Fish has given me no reply. No justification for their actions, no "I'm sorry you're right we'll look into it", nothing. It has been a little frustrating to me. It has been two weeks tomorrow since I found the bear. I mailed the letter on Saturday from Flagstaff and they should have recieved it Monday or Tuesday of last week. It seems to me somebody with in the dept. could have made a freindly call or sent a letter by now. I didn't think my letter was too over the top or overly aggressive or angry. Somebody should have respnonded to me. If I ran the customer relations at my business like that I'd be out of business.

 

God Bless,

 

Oldboy

[aztrophytakers]

I would not expect a reply either Oldboy. Remember who you are dealing with here. The AZGFD is the same as Obama and God, they answer to no one.

[Ernesto C]

How about bringing a copy, and asking the question in one of their public meetings??

 

 

 

Because you are right................if I dump a big game carcass next to the road and they see me...............oh boy! Not only I'll be in big trouble, I'll be in the news paper, T V news and even in cwt.com!

 

Ernesto C

[cmc]

Because you are right................if I dump a big game carcass next to the road and they see me...............oh boy! Not only I'll be in big trouble, I'll be in the news paper, T V news and even in cwt.com!

 

Ernesto C

 

 

Not to beat this one to death but I think you're missing a major point of the ordeal.

 

Have you ever seen those Loomis Fargo armed security delivery guys carrying the big bags of money walking out of the bank or say some grocery store? Why is it that you or I can't just go in and walk out with big bags of money just like them?

 

The difference is that it's their job and it's against the law for you and I do to that unless we are employed and tasked to do the escorting of the money to and from the locations.

 

In the above case it's only about the 'location' in which the animal was left, not it's condition it was left in. That's the only issue at stake. The fact that they killed a bear and left it is not in violation of the laws that the G&F operates under. You keep citing the law that hunters must follow and comparing that to how a WM must operate. That's not how it works.

 

cmc