2005 Fall Regs

[GRONG]

25-06 I hear ya man.

 

Az4life, I like your suggestions. We shouldn't have to put up with nonsense like this. Can't we just talk hunting, shed hunting and having fun in the outdoors w/o some person ruining it for the rest of us? I guess there's always one guy that has to be that way. What a shame.

 

For some reason I thought that all of us that come to this forum were all on the same side and come here to shoot the breeze. If we wanted confrontation we'd be on PETA's site raising heck over there.

 

Good talking with you guys.

[couesdiehard]

az4life and Josh;

You can bring up any members page and look at their posts and topics and click to "ignore user". I am not going to do it in this case because I want to know when he ticks everyone off and what it's about. Besides when so many of your posts are antagonistic it doesn't take reasonable folks long to figure out not to pay them too much heed. I will say if you want to lol read some of CHD's posts from March-Aug 2004. He clearly states on at least a couple of occassions that he will stop using this site and even asks Amanda to remove him from membership. Anyway thought you would want to know.

Lee

[az4life]

Lee

 

Thanks for the tip. I am not sure I looked since Amanda switched servers though. I do recall that series of posts from last year now that you mention it. I seem to recall a brief absence then a return with civil posts.

 

I don't generally support use of "time outs" for misbehaving children as there is not a tangible loss for them. In the case of misbehaving forum members, maybe a "time out" will work.

 

Anyway, with your help, I can now say " BEEN THERE, DONE THAT " if you know what I mean. And In this case I hope others do the same.

 

Sorry this thread was temporarily diverted.

 

We now return you to the 2005 Regulations thread....

[coueshunter]

CHD: I dont know you and probably dont want to.....I take offense to your attack of Josh......you mention that carrying capacity is more important than education......I agree; with one caveat........the way in which someone or some organization determines carrying capacity can make a whole lot of difference in how the herd should be managed.......the game managers in Arizona have been looking at alot of "questionable" criteria to manage the Kaibab herd........in our Arizona Deer Association meetings many people have asked "how are you managing, what are you looking for? how are you estimating tag numbers etc......Kevin(wetmule) is one of the board members asking these questions of Duwane Schrouf, Steve Ferrell et al of the upper echelon game managers........one response from the managers had me gagging on their lack of homework.......they had not been doing arial surveys on the Kaibab to determine population numbers......they had been using 1960 data and extrapolating from that.........you have to agree that without field data that is current, you cannot put together as useful of a plan.......an arial survey was just done and numbers submitted by an independant Biologist group and guess what? AZGFD decided they would do NOTHING with this data for 2005........the cliffrose counts and everything else ADA spent money on using the biologist group LSD to compile the info was ignored.......guys like Josh Epperson, Duwane Adams, Dana Yount, Ryan Hatch etc......must all be wrong, their field time is not valuable?????? Have you volunteered to go up to the Kaibab or Strip for the projects going on????????? I guess where I am not understanding you is precisely this..........tell us what you are doing to help out with deer from your understanding of the problem, not just throwing out insults to make yourself look better..........Allen Taylor......

[couesdiehard]

coueshunter;

I am glad to hear someone shed some more light on the Kaibab management question. I for one have never had the opportunity to hunt the Kaibab and don't know that I ever will but I am glad to know that I have a chance to hunt in such a potentially awesome hunt. I had never heard this survey information before and I think it's criminal. I am not familiar with the other surveys you refer to either but I am very interested.

Lee

[coueshunter]

Lee, I am only passing on info I receive from Arizona Deer Association or other groups that contact me. I really resent CHD coming on here like he is totally savvy on the strip and Kaibab when I havent seen his name come up under conservation nor spoke about by friends of mine who hunt these units year after year......I also resent his statement about the pictures on Josh's website........If Chris Darnell is so educated and worldly, he of all people should know that pictures are only so good.......satisfied customers are substantially better than pictures........example, two years ago I guided a client in Mexico (see muley crazy sonoran issue, client: Ben Ducek....) to a 195" muley buck......two weeks after the kill and before our article was wrote, someone called me to let me know the picture of the buck was on an Oregon outfitters website........I personally called the outfitter and had him remove the picture from his webpage.......he knew what he was doing and admitted it.........whats up Chris, would you have been impressed with guys web site????????............ease up, dont convince everyone else you are good by your mouth.......let your actions speak........as for the strip and Kaibab, there is an email right asking for volunteers to go up to the Kaibab and meet with AZGFD to look into future stuff we should do TOGETHER as sportsmen and Game management.........CHD needs to get up there and espouse his wisdom, or he could call Don Martin, Mohave sportsmen club and volunteer for the 13b water tank project that needs help.........basically Wetmule and Antlerboy are trying to mention to everyone that we need to get involved and get more informed about the sport that evokes so much emotion right now........focus your emotions into productive stuff not slamming others.........thanks for letting me vent............Allen Taylor.........

[CHD]

Boys and Girls, here is the deal.

 

Josh's comments are obscene to me (isn't it obvious?), same as mine are to you, understand? There are at least 2 sides to every story, believe it or not. The things I dislike in people you prolly don't understand as I am not like you. Everybody gets to post their opinions here, and as soon as I post mine you guys whine and try to get members to jump on the bandwagon and have Amanda banish me. We've been thru all this before, remember?

 

Josh's comment regarding education -vs- common sense is a filthy, vile, insult to every hardworking student in America. It's an insult to every person that went into debt to go to college. It's a insult to every person that stayed out of trouble, sacrificed, and worked hard to earn a degree or several of them. It's an insult to scientists and technologists that have worked to advance our society and our knowledge of things. For a youngster who has prolly spent his entire life in one chickensheet town to make such an outrageous, unfair statement..........is just plain WRONG. And I greatly object. And I will fire back.

Josh opened his post with this wonderful, enthusiastic comment. Just what kind of response did you think it would get Josh, huh? You knew very well it was this kind, didn't you? This is the stuff you all get when a statement like that is made on a public forum. Expect it every time.

 

Allen Taylor, open up the current edition of the ADA Magazine and look on Page 3. You will see my name listed under 'Sustaining Members'. I am one of only two non-residents listed there. I am also in the process of approaching ADA about doing an article for the magazine in order to contribute more to the organization. I have also approached an ADA officer about offering my help to Arizona Strip habitat improvement projects. I will do it Allen, and I will take time off from work at leave-without-pay to do it. And I expect to see you there, Allen.

 

Last week I ordered $400 in artwork from a sponsor of this site and I'm really looking forward to having it on my walls. I also bought books and vids from this site a while ago. I also donated $100 to this site a while ago. What have you done to support this website Josh & Allen & Az4life & Couesdiehard & .25-06??? Please don't hesitate to list it all right here. Please don't hold back.

[25-06]

Well CHD, I for one would like to say that I think any member of this site should never attack another member....If you have messed up feelings about someone one this site, keep them to your self...I also for one would like to see Amanda remove you from this site cuz at this point you are nothing more than trouble maker...WE DON'T WANT ATTITUDE ON THIS SITE UNDERSTAND!!!!And as far as supporting this most wonderful site in the world, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, EXEPT DOG ON PEOPLE DO YA HAVE A COUESWHITETAIL .COM STICKER ON THE BACK OF YOUR TRUCK, I DON'T THINK SO.....YOUR A PIECE OF WORK CHRIS, AND I HOPE YOU NEVER POST HERE AGAIN. By the way Chris, this is just MY opinion.

[CHD]

One more thing on this subject. In fact, one VERY important thing.

 

I make my living overcoming the bureaucrats. Even the highly educated ones. Yep, that's me. I'm very good at it, too. The sorry-butt gov't workers around here don't even hold a candle to me anymore. I beat 'em far more often than not. Know how I pull it off? CREDIBILITY.

 

 

Hillbilly doesn't beat education. Ever. If you wanna beat a scientist..................then become a better one. Cowboy up and learn the tricks of the trade and prove 'em wrong. And get qualifications.

 

Allen, if you would calm down and read my messages slowly.............then you would see that I'm not siding with AZGFD on this issue. Only with science. I already tried to make that clear. Also, the guides/outfitters you mentioned only have everything to gain by tags being reduced. Trophy quality=$$$ for them. Therefore..............they have no credibility.

 

Allen, please read the rest of my message about politics and such. As well as the fact that I specifically stated that state game & fish departments are in this for themselves. The modern government agency manages things exclusively for the longevity of the agency............not the taxpayers. It's like that all over, in all aspects of life, not just huntin'. If you guys are pissed off about how AZGFD handles hunting.................I could give you many examples that are much worse. Then you would be justified in pursuing an introverts hobby, believe me.

[ultramag]

alright the game and fish bioligists are smartest stupid people out there.

[az4life]

Just to let everyone know what is seen when a person on your "Ignore" list posts something, it looks like this...

 

You have chosen to ignore CHD. View this post ? Un-ignore CHD

 

Pretty cool feature this "Ignore member" option .

 

I see that note 2 times tonight so he must be upset. Being a creature of habit, he is probably critical of those who try to hold him accountable, and to a level of civility, and ranting about how he is right and his opinions are more valuable than other members because of his monetary donations and his worldly experience and that his posts are more valuable because they have so many hits (views). He may also be complaining that he is being picked on unfairly.

 

IF I am correct, and he is following his usual tactics, he will likely calm down and fly straight in a few weeks. That said, I have patterned him like a big buck and the ignore button is the perfect option as I already know what he has to say.

 

I almost want to click the "view this post" option but will resist the temptations.

Good night all!

[hunterdude]

CHD, are you doing that crack stuff again. Last time you said you were up for day's. Maybe you should check in to rehab.

[Redbeard]

Hey guys, Haven't been here for awhile but I just got off the phone with Josh and he told me to check out this flame fest. Nice work. So get onto some constructive work and back on topic. Although I think a big part of the problem is a general degradation in the quality of land and wildlife managers with or without degrees.

 

I have made the same kind of posts about managing the deer herd a long time ago and still nothing has changed. Like why in the heck AGFD wants to limit the number of bowhunters when they are giving out rifle doe tags and over a thousand rifle buck tags. Where the heck is the logic in that. They need to explain this. Josh is right. We need to put pressure on AGFD to actually manage the deer herd that is there now not what was there in the 60's or in the section they flew right next to the park boundary.

 

There are a million excuses but they usually run like this. We did a survey, (a bad one that is statistically indefensible) It is the drought, We have to provide hunter opportunity, the winter range is in bad shape, we don't have enough money to do a good survey, and so on. We need to stand up and demand that they do the right thing (reduce harvest) until they can show why they want to increase tags and wipe out the remaining few deer. How can WE do anything? Well groups like the ADA need to play hardball and start exposing the failures of AGFD and the total lack of evidence by complaining to the press, magazines, state representatives, whoever will listen. They hate being criticized in public. I used to work there myself I've seen them squirm.

 

There are great people in AGFD but the ones who seem to garner the power are the ones that like being bureaucrats. It is the same in most government organizations. Of course the USO approach might work too. Sue the AGFD for ruining hunter opportunity in AZ. Make it a class action suit and go for all of the application fees they have collected with no intention of increasing opportunity. How about the fact that my 14 bonus points for bison are now worthless for the only fair chase hunt in AZ. (house rock) There are a bunch of things we can do to put them on the run and force them to at least do some real science.

 

By the way CHD I have a bunch of degrees and am a professional biologist. I don't think you should be so thin skinned about what Josh says. He wasn't after you but made a somewhat valid generalization about many of the so called educated people who are making wildlife management decisions. Some of the dumbest people I know have Ph.D.s. Having a degree doesn't make a person smart. Sounds like you know from experience that some of the government workers have no clue about what really happens on the ground. Furthermore government agencies are adopting the basic phiosophy that people are bad and the wildlands and wild life need to be protected from us. I call those types Urban Environmentalists. The old guard is retiring from the forest service and game departments and new college educated (liberal brainwashed usually) recreation majors are getting their jobs. They think contraception is a much more politically correct and non violent way to manage wildlife. Seriously! I teach some of these kids.

 

So lets stop bashing and getting off topic and go after results. Just my $.02

[wetmule]

Been very reluctant to jump into this fray, but here goes. I want people to care about our deer herds and their habitat as much as I do, as do most of our ADA board members. We want to see our deer herds do well and thrive and their habitat flourish. Tough chore given the current dry spell and conditions AZ and other western states have faced in recent years. Allen started a thread some time back asking for help for the ADA, (yes we need help!) asking people to get involved, come to meetings, join the board, help with the youth programs, fundraising efforts etc., etc., etc. -- That thread was supported by myself, Amanda, Stanley and Allen all with pleas for help. You would think this website would be a great place to solicit help for likeminded, passionate people that care deeply about our deer in this state and hunting deer - you would be Wrong! That thread received alot of hits and I think One response from someone offering to do some writing for our publication. My conversation with Josh stemmed from a phone call from me asking for help. Josh asked how he could help and asked what are some of the things the ADA is doing ? He offered his help and I told him about one of the efforts the ADA is working on with the G & F regarding the Kaibab deer herd. We have been in a frustrating (both sides I'm quite sure) struggle with G & F for several years over the Kaibab deer herd. We have strongly disagreed with them pertaining to the deer numbers and all the antlerless hunts that they offer up there. We learned that the Kaibab ( the most famous and potentially the finest deer herd on the Planet ) had never been surveyed at least not any kind of survey that would give them some kind of accurate numbers. Both parties agreed to work together to come up with a plan to learn more about the Kaibab deer herd and its current state. We funded a survey, spent alot of money on (dual count, helicopter, grid, blah, blah) a good sound scientific survey. Flew in late Nov. & also Dec. 04. The results of the survey showed 75% less deer than they thought they had in 12-A East, 75% less in 12-B, and 30% less in 12-A West. A LOT less deer than their computer model said they had. Bottom line is we are trying to work with the Dept. and they are trying to work with us to come up with some solutions. It hasn't been easy. One of the issues is carrying capacity on winter range, as CHD stated, and is there enough food up there for the deer to eat in winter? Many of you may remember the Bridger Knoll fire up there in 96', it burnt up alot of winter range habitat. Hopefully we will be working with the G & F Dept. and the Forest Service to do some re-vegetation which I believe is the responsibility of the Forest Service and it NEVER Happened. How come the Rodeo Chedisky fire got re-seeded? As Allen stated we are having a meeting up there in a couple weeks with the G & F and Forest Service, possibly BLM and our ADA affiliate chapter up there to hash all this out and come up with a plan. We will see what happens.

Personally, I have hunted up there for 35 years and that country is near and dear to me and it is sad and hard to see what has happened to it. On one of my hunts up there some 12 years ago, guiding the auction tag holder, we kept track of all the bucks we saw in about a 3 week period. We saw over 1500 Bucks. I think if you spent a whole year out there now you would'nt you even come close to that number. Is all this drought related ? Is it being over hunted ? Is there not enough food? Is it predation?

I don't know but I'd sure like to know and I'd like to help be part of the solution, and that is ONE of the things the ADA is pursuing.

The Game & Fish believes in what they are doing and they are the professionals aren't they, we have to let them do their jobs. They also should be held accountable for their actions just as we all have to be.

Just a couple more things in this long winded post - you guys need a group hug, I can guarantee you that those of you bickering are all good guys and are on the same side and we need to start working together. Guys, these deer truly need our help. I'm amazed at all the help the elk groups get - the Elk Foundation and the Elk Society - seing as how elk don't need our help at all, IMO, heck we've got elk running around Picacho Peak and expanding everywhere, while our deer herds are steadily heading south. I'm done.

[couesdiehard]

Wetmule;

Very well written. Your post is truly eye-opening to someone who has never hunted north of the Colorado but loves the thought of hunting it someday or one of my kids hunting it. I had no idea things were so bad until Josh brought it up in this thread. I must admit, with the way G & F has helped screw up 36B (IMO) I shouldn't be surprized by what they don't know about the Kaibab and Strip country. Wetmule I want to apologize to you and the rest of the ADA members, I too read the thread asking for help. Like most others I felt it was a great cause but I was so busy that I thought I would leave it to somebody else this go around. If you would be kind enough to post info on your meetings, projects, etc. I for one will make the effort to participate and help. Thanks again for the great post.

Lee