2005 Fall Regs

[GRONG]

Az4life, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it for sure!!! I really don't stand behind the G&F Dept as a whole cause I'm positive that they don't give a care about wildlife in general. I'm sure there are a few that do but unfortunately those who do will never be in the positions to actually make a difference to help save what is left of the deer in AZ.

Your comment, "I would also like to think that the dpt is smart enough to TEST the theory before going off half cocked and potentially devastating the wildlife in a lot of regions." is an honest one about having faith in an organization that we assume they know what they're doing. Well after talking with Wetmule today for nearly an hour, I realize how bad they have have no clue what the deer herd north of the CO river is and how badly we all need to play a serious "active" role in the Arizona Deer Assoc. Whether it's to help preserve the almighty Coues or to save what's left of the carp deer, we really need to get involved and voice our opinions. It's easy to shoot them back and forth at each other here on a talk forum but we need to direct it to those where we can hopefully be of some influence and make a difference. Be it at a Commission meeting or part of an organization that's fighting to keep whats left of our deer.

 

The AZG&F Dept will issue 1000 buck tags in a unit that might only have 50 living bucks in the entire unit. They call that management? I call it irradication and it ticks me off! Get involved!!!!!!

 

Good talking to you today Wetmule, thanks for all the info!!

[az4life]

I am not sure about the deer heard in the unit you and wetmule were discussing, but from history, reading both of your posts, I would have to believe you both know more than the AZGFD on the topic..

 

Follow the money... is the rule and in this case, the money seems to be being drawn in by the vacuous space on the AZGFD board.

 

I agree that more involvement is a good course of action but those who go and choose to speak, should be informed on the subject. Citizens who speak at these things really need to be prepared and have the ability to speak in complete semi-coherent sentences with facts, not rumours.

 

Point me toward the information and give me a nudge, I can help voice opinions and make the case.

[GRONG]

Get ahold of wetmule, he's a board member of the ADA and has some facts to tell that would blow your mind, and seriously frustate the pants off of you, about the G&F and how they manage the deer north of the CO.

See ya,

Josh

[couesdiehard]

AZ4Life;

I agree with you on several points. I know little to nothing about the area north of the Colorado. I would love to see stats on how bad off that herd is today. 50 bucks in any of the 12 units sounds unbelievably low. If there is science to back that up I agree we all need to speak up! It also blows my mind that the way I read it, they are willing to sell all those deer hunters buffalo tags to reduce that herd also. I understand that House Rock buff hunt is one of the toughest but then again they don't usually have hundreds of hunters beating the countryside for them either. What if the conditions are right and folks really bang the buffalo during the deer season. It could take generations for that heard to recover. I can understand wanting to clear the elk out because they have never wanted any elk in there to compete with the deer herd and historically, I don't believe elk occupied that country.

Just my 2 cents.

Lee

[GRONG]

Lee, 50 bucks was just an exaggeration of how little the game unit managers know about their own unit. There could be 200 there for all I know but saying 50 makes you think. There could be 20 for all they know and they'll still continue to pump out hundreds and hundreds of the tags out every year and continue to blame it on the drought.

 

Wetmule should post some of his factual information he filled me in on today and it would blow your minds.... SERIOUSLY!! Your jaws would drop at how little they know about the poplulation of deer on the Kiabab and the Strip.

[runningbird]

I agree with az4life, I've been to quite a few meetings and it is very frustrating to sit there and listen to the general population talk about their feelings. Qiete often they make no sense at all, their hearts are in the right place and they are not lazy like most of us, they actually get their butt to the meeting and try to make a difference.... things seem to work much better if there is a few spokespersons voicing our concerns.. we need to remember that most of the people working for the G&F have masters or phd's and are used to working with scientific facts not heart felt emotions...I also think if the commision just left the hunt numbers up to the individual biologist in each unit things would be much better.

[couesdiehard]

Josh and runningbird;

I hear both of you. Josh you are right saying 50 bucks sure got my attention! I would love to see Wetmule's stats if he would be willing to post them. I think runningbird has it absolutely right. Unfortunately the folks who are the most dedicated and willing to get off their butts are not always the best at speaking in public. I don't want to discourage anyone from attending or speaking but it would be better if all the concerns or ideas were presented by a few well-spoken individuals.

Lee

[GRONG]

Just remember, the more degrees someone has, that usually means the least amount of common sense they have. That's my personal opinion anyway. I'd trust a biologist's numbers if they could prove to me that they spent more time in the field behind the binos, miles walked, etc instead of the mathmatical equations that they use to, key word here, "estimate" the number of deer in a unit. My father and I have both spent time afield with game wardens who tell us how they get the numbers for deer per unit.

Now I don't know how they do it every year but here's what they did, according to the wardens we've talked with. During thier aerial surveys they would only fly and count the number of deer in a section. Lets say they saw 10 bucks in that section. Instead of flying the rest of the unit for a much more accurate count, they multiplied the number of sections in that unit and then again by the number of bucks they saw. For arguments sake lets say there is 200 sections in that unit. According to thier math that would make the population of bucks 2000. All you guys and gals both know if you spent much time at all in the field that there aren't 2000 bucks in any unit in the entire state of Arizona. The major problem with their system is that the section they fly might be one of the only parts of the unit that even has deer in it, therefore giving the illusion that there is plenty of bucks to justify 500 tags.

Now you can play with the math all you want. Say they only saw one buck in that section. Using the same 200 sections that'd be 200 bucks throughout the unit. Now if they're still giving 500 buck tags in a unit that only has 200 bucks, given the harvest objective, there still isn't enough deer to be hunted effectively.

We would all love to kill a gorgeous buck during our hunt but for the most part people are killing spikes to little 3 points on thier hunts. Majority of living bucks in a unit rarely get to see the ripe age of 3 years old. How can we ever expect to regain our deer herd if the G&F don't even know how to manage our deer? The only thing they know how to do is sell permits, regardless of game.

I spend nearly 6 solid months in the field hunting and guiding each year and I can attest to you all that I might get lucky and see 25-40 muley bucks in a year in the northern units I hunt. Some years much less. The reason I'm saying this is because I'm trying to give myself a little credibility so that you all don't think I'm just blowing smoke and making up things.

 

I've typed enough for tonight. See ya,

 

Josh

[bcoover]

I have hunted 12a for a long time and last year when I was up there on the archery hunt every tank I walked by was full. I have never seen that much water up there. Even when the hunting was good in 12a I didn't see that much water. That was the hunt that proved to me that 12a wasn't in a drout. It is too bad because I loved going to 12a and seeing monster bucks. You still can but it is getting more and more difficult trying to find them.

[az4life]

Josh

You have proved credibility along with lots of others on the site. If AZGFD had as much credibility, we would not all be questioning something that seems pretty plane to us but not to them.

I wonder if the mission statement for the AZGFD reads something like...

 

The AZGFD Here to sell as many Licenses and Tags in AZ as possible, for as long as the game holds out.

 

With ridiculous allocations like we are discussing now It makes you wonder .

[CHD]

Just remember, the more degrees someone has, that usually means the least amount of common sense they have.

 

Once again young Mr. Epperson kiddo, you irritate me with your worldly, absolute, expert knowledge of everything involving hunting. Don't see too many bigguns on your website, tho. Is Lark your role model and friend or something? Perhaps you just have an education envy or some other envy?

 

However, you do run a chance of being right about AZGFD overharvesting muleys in the Kaibab. What's partly at issue is the carrying capacity of the winter range, not someone's education level or common sense. But what is really at issue is why hunters in all western states financially support game departments that manage game for political reasons and not science or what the majority of hunters want. Also, why does the funding of the G & F departments always come before the hunters, when we are paying the bills? You oughtta see what is going on right now for Utah elk and Colorado muleys. It ain't pretty. The bureaucrats justify offering more tags as 'more hunter opportunity', but what they really mean is more $$$ for the agency. Too many agencies are in the business of selling licenses, not trophy animals. This situation prolly ain't gonna change as this is a REALLY f'd up society that we live in.

 

My solution to all this horsesheet is to scout a lot, spend a lot of time out in the hills, scout and hunt harder than the average guy, work hard to learn the habits and behaviors of older animals, so that I can produce one in units that are managed for $$$ for G & F departments, not for trophy quality. If I liked other things in life, I would quit hunting today and pursue them. Unfortunately, I don't, so here I am.

[DesertBull]

I would rather hunt average animals every other year than trophy animals every 10-15 years. But that's just me. I understand that everyone has their own opinion.

[GRONG]

CHD, I'm not sure why you continue to antagonize me, I'm merely passing on some fact and some opinion, both of which I try to clarify in my posts. If you want to pick on me and the success of my outfit and expect me to comment or defend myself, I will not. I'm not sure what your problem is or what your beef with the world is but you won't find an argument with me here, especially on a public forum. Nor will I make stabs back at you with spite or negative comments, like you have directed at me, to make you look like less of a hunter or man.

 

Az4ife, the mission statement you made about the G&F is hilarious!! Thanks for the nice comments as well.

[az4life]

Josh

Your handling of these attacks is just another indication of how Truly fine this forum is! Members make the forum special.

 

The vast majority of information and discussions shared are top notch with quality comments and insightful perspectives and even some good natured humor on topics important to sportsmen and sportswomen. It is rare when personal attacks happen here and even more rare when they are responded to which in the "anonymous internet" is the norm.

 

Praises now aired, use of any forum requires restraint to keep from "feeding Trolls". I would like to suggest, that another more automatic way is to add an "ignore" option which I have seen on some other boards. I am not sure if it is possible to add this feature on the server, but I am sure it would help keep the peace even more.

 

This "ignore" option would keep you from seeing posts from members who consistently flame others or generally post items of little interest to you. As more and more people "ignore" a member, there is less feedback "food" and as a direct result, the "trolls" move on to another feeding ground.

 

Food for thought.

[25-06]

az4life, I am with you on this one....Can't someone do something to keep SCUM off of this peaceful, hunting COUES, not trashing on a fellow hunter web site