Picacho Peak Elk

[Redbeard]

As far as guys with muzzleloaders not being able to kill them all... They killed about 50 million bison in about 5 years! The indians wiped out (extinct) 39 genera (100's of species) of large mammals after the last ice age in North America and they used spears. When you can hunt anyway you want 365 days a year it doesn't take long to wipe them out. The early settlers took care of a lot of things that the indians hadn't wiped out yet. We sport hunters have rescued many species from possible extinction. As Ted Nugent says if you want to have lots of some animal make a sport hunting season for it and hunters will protect it and be sure they don't go extinct. Spotted owl for dinner?

[DesertBull]

There is not much difference between the elk living near Picacho Peak and the elk I have seen in some of the areas in Unit 21. I've seen Elk between the Dugas Ranch and I-17, which is pure cactus desert. If you look hard enough, you can find a lot of Elk sign in the 4 Peaks area and around Mt Ord too.

[bowhunter4life]

21 bull tag is almost as good as a 9 tag. keep puttin in and some day have a tag.22 years putting in only 2 bull tags.the point are bound to help, someday

[.270]

ok, ok, i gotta chime in on this now. to say there were never merriams elk here is real irresponsible to me. there are folks that say we never made it to the moon either. and folks that say there are sasquatches too. ('course bullwidgeon looks like a pygmy sasquatch, so maybe there is such a thing). there is a museum here in the phx area that has a couple merriams racks. at least one of them was taken by an old timer from the round valley area. seems like it was an eagar or a crosby, but heck, everbody from RV is either an eagar or a crosby. but they have the racks there and they weren't taken by this guy of questionable repute. i've read the same old article multiple times about a guy that collected a couple merriams toward the end of the 19th century, and he hunted out of RV and wasn't down on the rez. and he was commissioned by someone to do it. maybe the smithsonian. i can't remember for sure. but he wasn't some ill-reputed con man. the merriams was here. too many stories about em to not be and the country is just too good o' elk country for it to not ever have elk. and indians didn't wipe out all the ice age animals. the weather had as much to do with it as anything. get it, ice age? no glaciers in nevada anymore. things change. sure, the natives got all they could, but i don't buy 5' tall guys with clovis points wipin' out mammoths, mastodons and cave bears. maybe the merriams was a victim of circumstances other than market hunting? maybe it was just their time. been a lot of species extinced just because. maybe there were a few merriams who made it and interbred with the yellowstones that were transplanted. sounds reasonable. you ever been in squirrell or chitty canyon or off in KP? there coulda been thousands of em in there and nobody see em. heck, they're trying to introduce wolf/dog crosses and pass em off as wolves right now. maybe we got some sorta super elk. sorta like a brangus. whatever we have, i'm glad we got em, but i wish they'd keep em in the high country. whether or not they were plains animals, they don't belong in the sonoran desert. leave if for the javelinas and desert muleys. and whitemen didn't wipe out the buffalo with muzzleloaders either. the vast majority of the big time bison killin' happened after the civil war and was done with big Sharp's breechloader rifles with metallic cartridges and by the new repeaters that were real common after the war. mainly the winchester '76 with .45/60 ammo. and they shot a bunch of em trains, with "hunting parties" on em. we can speculate all we want about what was. only thing that really matters now is what is. wildlife has to be managed. with interstates running everywhere and towns popping up faster than gopher holes and all the other development, everything in between has to be managed. no way to not do it and be successfull. if animals are left unchecked, only the strongest will survive. kaibab and the strip is seeing the effects of decades of poor management. no lion control, too many coyotes, elk infestation, bison encroachment, drought, too many doe permits, too many permits in general, etc. Ted Riggs predicted this 35 years ago. i heard him say it. if you don't know who Ted is, find out. i doubt he even graduated from high school, but he knew more about the country north o' the colorado than all schoolys combined ever will. same as my ol' uncle Earl. another legendary govt' trapper. these guys knew what was. i've seen Earl's predictions come to pass so many times it's scary. elk need to be kept in areas where they can do well and not be a big detriment to the other animals. the desert ain't that place. there are ways to do it, but they ain't PC. the azgfd has to bite the bullet, and soon, and do the right thing. Lark.

[az4life]

Lark

Take a breath !!! Looks like you held in your thoughts until they exploded on the screen. LOL Your typing all ran together and I cannot read that fast.

 

Another fine perspective to add to the fray. Some of the old timers reall did and a few probably still do know a lot. Experience taught them and unfortunately we "younguns" don't learn to listen and watch and ask about those things untill it is too late.

[billrquimby]

The report of Merriam?s elk antlers taken in Round Valley is the first I?ve heard, and the Merriam?s elk is a subject I have followed closely since even before the nearly forty years I?ve had a place in Greer, which as you surely know is only a few miles from that valley.

 

You can count the number of alleged Arizona Merriam?s antlers known to exist on two hands and have fingers left over. An alleged pickup hung for years at the old lodge at Buffalo Crossing and later at Hannagan Meadow; another was found on a cabin on Mount Lemmon; and two supposedly were collected near the headwaters of the Black River in 1886. These two were sent to the American Museum of Natural History. Another reportedly was found ?somewhere near Flagstaff.? Another set was reported to be from a bull shot at the ?mouth of the Little Colorado River.? Anyone who has ever stood where that muddy creek meets the big Colorado will burst out laughing at that report. I have and I did.

 

If just one of the six known Arizona Merriam?s elk antlers that survived is obviously bogus isn?t it possible that the others might be, too ---- especially if the veracity of the guy who supposedly collected the two specimens on the Black River is debatable?

 

Although I don?t think I ever met Ted Riggs I do know who he is. I personally knew many notable old timers, such as Lynn Cool, George Parker, Tom Knagge, and almost everyone honored in feature articles in the Arizona Wildlife Federation ?s last record book. (I even wrote one of those articles.)

 

I am not as ignorant as about wildlife as someone in this thread implied. I?ve hunted and fished in every Arizona county (as well as all over this continent, and four others) and have taken every species of legal game animal and fish in this state over the past 68 years. My family, which included ranching people who lived in present elk country, has been in Arizona for a century. I have no idea whether or not there ever were Merriam?s elk in Arizona , but doesn?t it seem odd so very few antlers survive and that there is no substantial archaeological record of elk here?

 

The Merriam?s elk in New Mexico, Texas, and northern Mexico were supposed to be larger than the Rocky Mountain elk brought here from Yellowstone, so it is possible that Merriam?s genes contributed to larger antlers in Arizona?s present elk herd if there were, in fact, ?pockets? of them surviving when the Wyoming elk were released. The question is "if."

 

I will not comment about being called ?irresponsible.?

 

Bill Quimby

[bullwidgeon]

I hate to do this to a friend but Quimby is as nuts or irresponsible as they come, I have been in a skinny flimsy canoe with him before trout fishing at Greer in some BIG WIND and he used to OWN AND RIDE A MULE. Let see, you hang out around the likes of me, trust me in a boat no less and owned and trusted a mule at one point, I am not sure what else a guy needs to do to qualify as being crazy ?

(Lark didn't you used to have a mule too? Bwaahahahahaha!!)

Seriously, how are you doing Bill? Are you back up on the hill for the summer yet? I need to get up there.

Anyways, Mr. Quimby is really a gem of information and knows alot about wildlife (in Arizona and darn near everwhere else too) especially as it pertains to hunting. I consider myself extremly lucky to be able to hang out with him a few days a year, and I mostly just shut up and try to listen when he and my grandfather get to talking, it usually pays off....

As far as Merriams elk, I would like to think they were here and never got shot out, but who can ever really know now. I have looked in Squirrel Canyon and about 10 more of those big bottomless holes around there, not too mention been lost in the Black River canyon for days and I can not imagine shooting all of any critter out of there or the 100 other such bottomless holes in that country. heck, my truck leaves bigger tracks and moved alot less than any elk and it took me a day and a half just to find it one time .

 

Bret Mattausch

[.270]

ok bill. i have a couple more questions. you've confused me. you say there weren't ever any merriams in Az. but also say that some probably survived and crossed with the yellowstones? maybe i've read too much and am all messed up here, but that's my take. i have to agree that some merriams could have survived and could have crossed with the introduced elk. sounds real reasonable to me. there could be pure merriams still living in there own little herds for all i know. there is some rough country on the rim. but why would some guy over 100 years ago conspire to fake out everybody into believing there were merriams when there weren't? i see why guys would salt bogus gold mines. i see why guys would put sawdust in a noisy rear axle so they could sell it to some poor joker. but why would there be a conspiracy about merriams? i don't understand it. especially when there is at least a lot of campfire legend to substantiate that they were here. my bunch has been in Az. since the 1860's. i have a good friend who owns a ranch in the gilas in new mex. his family has been there since the 1850's. there are stories i've heard from both groups about the old elk. why the heck would they make that up? i know for a fact that there were sonoran grizzlies and mexican wolves all over this country. show me a hide or a bone from one of them? i've seen a couple grizzly artifacts. actually saw a live wolf a few times. but show me a hide from one. ain't many around. but i've seen just as much merriams stuff too. i know a guy who has what has been substantiated as a merriams shed. i've held it in my hands. he lives in RV. maybe it ain't. but i like to think it is. and i'm real confident that there were merriams elk in Az., in the white mts. i guess we'll agree to disagree. there were merriams here and the azgfd needs to do something about whatever kinda elk it is we have now. they don't belong in the cedars or the desert. Lark.

[WHT_MTNMAN]

Well I don't have time to make a educated argument, or comment, so it will be just opinion. As a boy I spent lots and I mean lots of time on the fence line of the reservation on top of the rim. (less than 5 miles from the house i grew up in) My family were some of the first to settle that area and my great great aunt was supposedly a medicine woman that even everyone left alone indian and white alike. (most think she was just plain crazy)

I have no idea if merriams existed but my grandfather thinks there was some in the big canyons off just off of the rim. I love looking at big bulls, i don't care how they came about. As far as elk in the cedars, I prefer elk there, I've seen bigger bulls in the cedars than anywhere else, maybe once again I just love big bulls, as long as they don't expand to my COUES areas.

[billrquimby]

OK Lark.

 

First off I don't think I've said there absolutely were no Merriam?s elk here, although I do suspect there were none. If they were here I believe it would be close to impossible to eliminate them. I think the only way to remove every elk would be to flood the state with cattle, which iswhat was done just after the turn of the century. However, there would be archeological records that elk were here in good numbers and, I believe, a heck of a lot more surviving antlers. 1900 is not that long ago in the scheme of things.

 

Second, campfire legend is exactly what it could have been. One good ol? boy sees a big mule deer buck and says it was as big as an elk. His buddy tells someone else his friend saw an elk, and the next thing you hear is that the first guy killed an elk. This type of thing happens all the time. Just ask any defense attorney.

 

Third, in the 1880s, when the type specimens allegedly were taken in Arizona there were naturalists -- professionals and amateurs -- running all over the place trying to gain immortality by identifying new species and subspecies. Anyone who could ?prove? that elk were in Arizona would impress his peers and perhaps make some money on the lecture circuit, which was a big thing before TV. The professionalism of the guy who shot those two bulls at the headwaters of the Black River is suspect.

 

Fourth, although I?m not saying it is so, I don't rule out that the alleged Merriam?s elk antlers reportedly found in Arizona were brought into the state from elsewhere. All those I know about were big bulls, which lends credence to someone not wanting to leave his best trophy behind when he moved here. How was the shed owned your friend in Springerville/Eagar ?substantiated?? Were DNA tests done?

 

You are correct about grizzly bears and wolves ?all over the place? in Arizona. There even were bears along the Colorado River within 50 miles of Yuma and in the river's delta in Mexico. You also are correct about elk not belonging in the desert. Our desert mule deer certainly don?t need more competition.

 

Bill Quimby

[billrquimby]

"i've seen a couple grizzly artifacts. actually saw a live wolf a few times. but show me a hide from one. ain't many around."

 

I neglected to answer you on the above. I should have pointed out that there are photos of grizzly bears and wolves in Arizona, which is more than can be said about Merriam's elk.

 

I repeat, though, I've only said there are people who doubt that this subspecies reached Arizona.

 

When I still was a reporter I interviewed several of them, and there were not wide-eyed, irresponsible loonies. I'm still keeping an open mind.

 

Bill

[billrquimby]

Seriously, how are you doing Bill?  Are you back up on the hill for the summer yet?  I need to get up there.

Bret Mattausch

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi Brett.

 

I guess I must be crazy if I try to get others to question things they've read or have been told.

 

We spent about ten days on the hill but came down Sunday so I could undergo a medical procedure. We'll head back up as soon as I feel better. I did get out to check "my" elk herds three or four times while I was there. It's still too early to see antlers, of course, but I did see more animals this year than in the past couple of springs. I also drove up on a bear crossing the road at the cabins in North Woods, almost exactly the same place where I've seen two in the past.

 

Look forward to seeing you in God's country. Did you draw a turkey permit?

 

Bill

[hunterdude]

I once read that the last grizzly in Az. was shot in Yuma back in 1914 at the river crossing. I think I read this in The wildlife views from the g&f .

[billrquimby]

I once read that the last grizzly in Az. was shot in Yuma back in 1914 at the river crossing. I think I read this in The wildlife views from the g&f .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Grizzly bears were gone from Yuma County long before 1914. The last griz in Arizona was killed either in the Blue or on Escudilla Peak. I don't remember which. I have books by David E. Brown and Bob Housholder that talk about these bears but I can't put my hands on them at the moment. I have more than 2,000 hunting-related books and it's hard to find one when I want it. Brown's book is very good. Housholder's was less so, if I remember.

[COUESAZ]

I would bet the blue. That country has alot of brown faze bears in it.