Non-lead bullets on the Strip

[soazarcher]

 

 

The following is an email I just received from SCI, no doubt many of you got it also.

 

Quote:

 

 

Dear SCI Members,

 

We are looking for information about members’ hunting experiences on Federal lands in the Arizona Strip north of the Grand Canyon. In particular, we seek to know if you hunt on the Arizona Strip using lead ammunition, the nature and extent of your hunting, and the probable impact on you if Federal agencies ban the use of lead ammunition on the Arizona Strip. We understand that the State of Arizona has a fairly intensive voluntary program encouraging the use of non-lead ammunition for hunting. If you respond, please confirm that you do use lead ammunition for your hunting there. For information about the Arizona Strip, please go to http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/fo/arizona_strip_field.html.

 

 

 

The reason for this inquiry is that an environmental group – the Center for Biological Diversity (“CBD”) – has sued the Federal agencies that administer the Arizona Strip. One of CBD’s claims involves the agencies’ refusal to ban non-lead ammunition for hunting on the Arizona Strip. CBD is unhappy about the fact that, rather than banning lead, the federal agencies only encourage the use of non-lead ammunition. SCI is considering whether it should participate in this litigation and if so, in what capacity. For this, we wish to know the impact on our members if CBD succeeds in forcing the federal agencies to ban lead ammunition on the Arizona Strip.

 

 

 

If you and/or other SCI members have hunted on the Arizona Strip with lead ammunition and/or plan to do so in the future, please provide a description of your past and/or future planned hunts to SCI Litigation Counsel, Doug Burdin, at dburdin@safariclub.org. Please e-mail or call 202-543-8733 with any questions.

 

END QUOTE

 

 

 

 

 

In the first paragraph, it asks sportsman to reply ONLY if they use lead ammo for hunting on the Strip.

 

 

Let's hear some CWer's opinions on the Lead Vs. Non lead debate

 

Inquiring minds want to know what is wrong with non lead bullets.

 

It seems like the dept. is really pushing non lead on the strip, due to the Condors

 

Do they not perform as well?

 

Please set me straight,

 

Matt

 

[EagleEye]

Hunted the OCt 12 W with the copper bullets they provided and both deer went down on 1 shot bullet held together and worked perfectly as far as we could tell.

[CouesWhitetail]

I have a couple friends that killed their deer with copper bullets and they were very happy with the performance.

 

Amanda

 

[soazarcher]

 

Agreed, they performed perfect for me, also.

My 2007 strip buck fell to one well placed G&F supplied bullet.

 

Why is SCI anti, and AZGFD pro???

 

Do only "condor lovers" shoot copper?

[catclaw]

Used a bunch of lead bullets and left some dead coyotes- at least their carcasses. I have never seen ANYTHING eat a coyote except flies. This whole copper thing is crap.

 

They work fine, but are expensive and don't always shoot well in all rifles, besides, they limit your choices when working up loads etc. I generally don't use them anymore. Last elk tag in unit 10 we used factory W-W ammo with Fail-safes- mostly copper but with a smidgen of lead and steel. I see this lead-ban stuff going no where good. Everyone that jumps on this wagon is just helping it to gain momentum with the next ban. Just say NO to copper! In fact, copper is toxic as heck!

[vitalzone]

Used all copper bullets in 12a west back in 2001,they are most accurate bullets I have shot out of my 270, federal factory loads with a 130 grain barnes xtc. One shot and my buck was down,weight retention was almost 100 %, expansion was perfect. I now shot barnes all copper bullets in all my centerfire rifles.

[4Falls]

Was at the Canyon yesterday and there was a memorium display asking people not to throw coins off the canyon edge because Condor #22 had injested a coin and died. So I guess well have to ban all non-paper money on the Strip as well.

[AZbowhntr]

I shot my buck a few years ago with a 100% copper bullet and he made it about 10'. Had a pass through with a real nice exit hole. And they are accurate as can be.

[desertdog]

Used a bunch of lead bullets and left some dead coyotes- at least their carcasses. I have never seen ANYTHING eat a coyote except flies. This whole copper thing is crap.

 

They work fine, but are expensive and don't always shoot well in all rifles, besides, they limit your choices when working up loads etc. I generally don't use them anymore. Last elk tag in unit 10 we used factory W-W ammo with Fail-safes- mostly copper but with a smidgen of lead and steel. I see this lead-ban stuff going no where good. Everyone that jumps on this wagon is just helping it to gain momentum with the next ban. Just say NO to copper! In fact, copper is toxic as heck!

 

I agree completely. The copper bullets may work well, but I am not big on voluntarily giving up out rights and options. I dint want to see this go without a fight. Sorry it just does not make much sense to me.

 

[308Nut]

Hello, I am new to this site. Thanks for a cool place. I have not bagged a coues buck yet but have hunted them a few times. Archery mostly. I am planning a rifle hunt later this year in AZ.

 

This post caught my eye and thought I would offer my two cents.

 

Mono metal bullets have both advantages and dis-advantages. Depending on ones shooting abilities and accuracy standards there may not be any major dis-advantages but for precision shooters and or long range shooters, there are some dis-advantages.

 

Advantages:

 

1: Very deep penetration. Not as necessary on deer as it is for elk and moose.

 

2: There are no jacket wall concentricity issues to deal with for accuracy concerns.

 

3: No lead to contaminate the enviornment.

 

Dis-advantages:

 

1: Many rifles will not shoot them as accurately as some shooters would like. Some rifles will shoot them with a resonable degree of accuracy and in some case exceptional accuracy. Others will just not tolerate them.

 

2: Regardless of what you read, they do copper foul a bit more than jacketed lead. This can lead to accuracy and inconsistency problems.

 

3: If larger bones are encountered with mono metal bullets at oblique angles, the hollow point tends to get pinched shut. When this happens, expansion does not take place. Expansion is critical for clean kills.

 

4: From a long range shooters view point, the minimum impact velocity requirements are a bit on the high side. In some long range senarios, the lower BC of the all copper bullets slows the bullet fatser than conventional bullets. Between faster loss of velocity and a high impact velocity requirement, they become unreliable for longer shots. It is popular belief that all copper bullets have a higher BC than jacketed lead. This is not true. The specifec gravity of copper is 8.89 where jacketed lead is 10.7. The higher the specifec gravity, the higher the BC, provided all other things such as diameter and shape are equal. It is not my or anybody elses place to judge how far a given hunter should shoot at his quarry. The key is to use gear and components that work for the style of a given hunter. For a long range hunter, the all copper bullets dont always work reliably.

 

Again, depending on how far one is going to shoot and what his accuracy requirments are, there may not be any dis-advantages. For other hunters the dis-advantages may be huge.

 

I dont meen any flame here, just my humble opinions.

 

Thanks again for the site!

 

 

[SilentButDeadly]

Used a bunch of lead bullets and left some dead coyotes- at least their carcasses. I have never seen ANYTHING eat a coyote except flies. This whole copper thing is crap.

.... Just say NO to copper! In fact, copper is toxic as heck!

 

Copper toxic? Only if a person ingests large quantities of copper-salts can they become poisoned. Maybe we should re-plumb our houses with lead pipes again instead?

 

There are two issues being debated here - is copper bad for hunting and is anti-gun legislation bad for hunting?

 

Copper has its ups and downs, but one thing is certain: it is not toxic if ingested as a metal -- which it isn't because the bullets don't fragment into a bazillion particles like lead, hence this impetus for copper hunting bullets.

 

Anti-hunting and anti-gun groups will of course use the lead bullet issue as an excuse to damage hunting; if hunters are pro-active and show a progressive attitude toward conservation (as they always have) of all game (including the Condors) than the majority of the public will side with them, and the anti's will never gain the publicity or traction they want and need. It is reactionary stubborn-mule-like-behavior to reject what the science has told us that has damaged groups like the NRA on this argument and it will continue to give the anti's a platform.

 

T

[.270]

lead is everywhere. the area around the grand canyon has uranium and lead all over the place. you find both minerals in the same places. you also fine lead where you find silver. buzzards have a gizzard. they fill it with rocks. wouldn't be hard to get infected that way. you also find lead in roadkill from car exhaust. even if everyone uses unleaded gas. the forest circus gave everything a liberal coat of lead paint for decades. to blame lead poisoning in california buzzards soley on bullets is completely irresponsible. it is just one more way to have control. why aren't the ravens, red tails and eagles getting it too? or the blue jays? why just buzzards? ever think of that? there are a helluva lot more of the other birds than there are buzzards. lead poisoning is a real thing. and it is really bad. but it takes lead on almost a molecular scale to cause it. the lead needs to be in solution or in a vapor or gas for it to have a big effect on people. that why the romans went nuts. lead pipe. the water leached the lead into solution and they drank it and it went into their blood. same with lead crystal glasses and booze containers. i've had a bullet in me for decades. i don't have lead poisoning. and i can prove it because i have to have a heavy metal blood test done periodically because of the work i did for years. the endangered species act is not about the species recovering. that's the last thing they want. even when a plan works, like it has on the yellowstone wolves, they won't let go of it. it is about taking liberties away from folks who use the land and this is a convenient way to do it. looking at some of the stuff that the usfw has been caught doing, like planting lynx hair, dragging off wolf kills around yellowstone, heck there ain't space to list it all, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the lead poisoning is a plant by them too. i've never seen good results with copper bullets. if you want to track a wounded animal off into a canyon, then they are what you want. they would be ok on big bears and dangerous african animals, but they zip through too quick to shock an animal the way a well made jacketed bullet will. and i refuse to believe that the copper bullet deal in the grand canyon area is anything other than a ploy. Lark.

[SilentButDeadly]

I know we've argued about lead before, but here is a link to a recent study of lead-bullet killed venison fed to animals.

 

The results indicat a daily average of 2.3 micro-grams of lead per 1/10th of a liter of blood in lead-venison fed pigs versus 0.6 micrograms in controlled-venison fed pigs.

 

The author's indicate that 'dangerous' levels of lead are >10 micrograms per 1/10th liter in children. So the levels achieved by eating lead-shot venison for a couple days is below the danger level. However, they also state that levels as low as 2 micro-grams can cause problems in adults and children and that dangerous levels may be achieved through continuous consumption.

 

If the questions are: Are we feeding our children potentially dangerous metals? AND What alternative can we make to avoid giving ourselves or our children any amount of a hazardous material? Why would you knowingly continue to hunt with lead (or copper) bullets when they could have adverse health and mental effects on your kids???

 

If you really care about this you could look into getting your children and yourselves tested prior to hunting season, and a few months afterward (when you've been consuming your lead-shot game). It would be a really cool study for someone to conduct... Get a bunch of volunteers to submit to blood testing prior to hunting season (when your freezer is empty) and sometime later when you've been consuming large amounts of whatever you've killed then compare those results to non-hunters and hunters who killed using copper bullets... Hmmm, maybe I'll write a research proposal!

 

 

[.270]

like i said, i get tested once a year. worked in a high risk trade for metal disease for a long time. i've never had a positive test. not from the work or from eating "contaminated" meat. and what i'm talking about is the usfw trying to control more land. if you want to use copper bullets that's your choice. i have no problem with it what so ever. in fact, if that makes you feel better, i encourage it. but don't tell me that lead in deer guts has anything to do with lead poisoning in condors. eagles, hawks, especially red tails, ravens and turkey vultures are all protected and eat carrion. the bald eagle is considered endangered. they all eat the same things as condors, from the same area. why aren't they dropping like flies? why isn't there any concern over them getting lead poisoning? over the years i've consumed parts of countless big game animals and birds taken with lead projectiles. swallowed more than one piece of 8 shot. i imagine i've ingested more than one piece of a bullet. i have a bullet in me. worked in a heavy metal rich enironment for years. i've never contracted lead poisoning. never even had it show up in the annual tests. i can appreciate your concern for the health of you and your family and if you feel you don't want to take a chance on lead projectiles i support you 100%. but i refuse to believe that bullets are a contributer to lead poisoning in condors. it is the beginning of a ploy by the usfw have more control. Lark.

[AZMThunter]

My oldest son and I, as well as my father-in-law and uncle-in-law, all hunted the late deer 12AW hunt in 2007.

 

My father-in-law used the G&F supplied ammo, the rest of us were using what we were comfortable with.

 

I was pondering the potential impact of the lead issue as I sat one afternoon glassing (6) condors all roosted in a large snag. They are impressive birds, and I probably would not have given them much thought had the lead bullet issue not been fresh on my mind.

 

I am not an expert on lead, condors, or any mix of the two. What I am is a fan of wildlife. I am also a fan of lass government regulating what I can and cannot do.

 

The final impact on my hunt? I used my regular rounds, dropped a nice buck at 458 yards, and buried the gut pile under a large mound of rocks in the hopes that any potential harm to condors or other predators could be minimized.

 

I doubt it was a perfect solution. I also doubt that it would have any impact one way or another what my two 150 grain bullets did to the condors. I do know that most of us want no harm to come to the wildlife we enjoy... intentional harm excepted :-)

 

The end result is that a little knowledge of the issue made a change to my hunt - I would not have normally buried anything under rocks. It wasn't any big deal to do, and if it can help out a little, what is the harm. Just don't tell me I have to do it. Rubs us all a little wrong.