Late desert Mule Deer hunts?

[soazarcher]

Why do we not have any late desert mule deer rifle hunts?

 

Just curious, seems like it would be a great hunt.

 

Maybe a VERY limited number of tags, dec 1-15 time frame, in central and southern AZ.

 

I’d bet a lot of higher BP holders would jump on the opportunity to hunt desert bucks.

 

I can’t really think of any negatives, maybe you guys can enlighten me???

 

As an example, 5-10 tags, in 5-10 different units, for a total of 25-100 tags. The first two weeks of December would not conflict with anything, except sheep hunts, and these could be easily avoided. (and hunted in different terrain). You could even alternate units each year, as we do on some other species.

 

Sorry if this is crazy, I’ve been on the road a lot lately, maybe I’m thinking too much for my own good. We have high demand hunts (rut,trophy,etc) for Antelope, Elk, Coues, RM mule deer etc…. just not desert mule deer.

 

These would be higher success hunts (+50%), but with a small number of tags, I can’t seem to find any negatives.

What do you think?

 

Matt Woodward

 

[SilentButDeadly]

Personally I'm afraid of a high success rate late hunt for muleys (come on, they're DUMB during the rut)... The quality of SOAZ mules is good (but rare), if you add a late hunt you'd be preferentially taking better animals out, lowering quality on an already depleted population.

 

I'd be for a decrease or temporary end to rifle muley tags across SO AZ to increase numbers and quality (for example, the Tucson Mountain Hunt Area is teeming with older deer due to the limited Archery only season).

 

I think the greatest issue with muleys is #1 development and fragmentation of habitat; #2 prolonged drought -- I heard a talk here at the UA the other day that climatologists are predicting the current drought to go on into 2013; #3 competition from these darn Coue's deer that have decided they can live in the desert too -- a recent census of deer on the loop road in Saguaro National Park East found that Coue's have replaced the Desert Muleys at low elevations (likely a product of issues #1 and #2).

 

Tyson

 

ps, the current drought is likely not a product of human induced climate change, it is within the historic range of variability of long term (+25 year) drought cycles...

[johnnie blaze]

couldnt have said it better myself!!! SPOT ON!!!

[soazarcher]

Agreed guys.

 

Good points.

 

Would such a small number of harvested deer make a difference? I don't know.

 

Seems like a lot of Muleys dying down south, not getting hunted.

 

I guess I feel like there are alot of muleys in SOAZ that just don't get hunted.

 

They spend the early season in the lowlands (private) and don't move to the foothills until Dec.

This is true throughout soaz.

 

I know populations are declining, but I saw 30 plus bucks a day on multiple occasions this year.

 

Seems like all the does would still get bred if we harvested 5-10 deer a year.

 

I wouldn't hunt it, you're right they are dumb in the rut, It was just a thought on a 12 hour drive.

 

I think I'll stick to killing them with a bow

 

 

 

 

Probably a bad idea to offer rifle permits

 

 

 

[stanley]

Good question, although one more for the specific WMs for each individual unit! I definitely don't know all of the specifics, but I understand that the managers for the units are the ones who propose the hunts for their units each year (within the guidelines of the Directors, etc... of course...).

 

If you have a unit or two in mind you might want to e-mail the WM for those specific units and query them on the possibility.

 

As has been mentioned though, I think the success ratios may come into play. Specifically with the department's 'opportunity' goal, they might be less likely to approve these so called 'high success' hunts. They seem to think that offering more tags is a priority over high hunt & quality hunt success.....

 

S.

 

[soazarcher]

Good question, although one more for the specific WMs for each individual unit! I definitely don't know all of the specifics, but I understand that the managers for the units are the ones who propose the hunts for their units each year (within the guidelines of the Directors, etc... of course...).

 

If you have a unit or two in mind you might want to e-mail the WM for those specific units and query them on the possibility.

 

As has been mentioned though, I think the success ratios may come into play. Specifically with the department's 'opportunity' goal, they might be less likely to approve these so called 'high success' hunts. They seem to think that offering more tags is a priority over high hunt & quality hunt success.....

 

S.

 

 

Good point Stanley, unfortunatley most of the units I hunt do not have a WM at all. It's a shame.

 

I guess it's the dept's "opportunity goal" that I don't like at all. I say get rid of all 5000 muley tags and offer 50 that are actually good tags!

[ac guy]

I don't think success rates have anything to do with it. Coues get pretty stupid as well during the rut. Look at all the 60% success hunts in Dec

[stanley]

Success definitely has something to do with it. Why do you think they've been lowering the number of Dec coues tags???? So they can offer more early season tags! Due to the high success in the late hunts, they can offer an incremental increase in early tags as they decrease the Dec tags.

 

More tags = more 'hunter opportunity' in the Department's opinion.... They can either let 50 hunters into the field in December, or 150 hunters into the field in October! More opportunity in October! Same number of deer killed in the end.... (numbers are examples only, of course...).

 

S.

 

[IHunt2live]

Good question, although one more for the specific WMs for each individual unit! I definitely don't know all of the specifics, but I understand that the managers for the units are the ones who propose the hunts for their units each year (within the guidelines of the Directors, etc... of course...).

 

If you have a unit or two in mind you might want to e-mail the WM for those specific units and query them on the possibility.

 

As has been mentioned though, I think the success ratios may come into play. Specifically with the department's 'opportunity' goal, they might be less likely to approve these so called 'high success' hunts. They seem to think that offering more tags is a priority over high hunt & quality hunt success.....

 

S.

 

 

Good point Stanley, unfortunatley most of the units I hunt do not have a WM at all. It's a shame.

 

I guess it's the dept's "opportunity goal" that I don't like at all. I say get rid of all 5000 muley tags and offer 50 that are actually good tags!

 

 

Your right, we need more WM's out there and I hope to be one of them starting Jan.

I agree what has been said about our desert muledeer, They are sure hurting right now and I personaly feel that the last thing they need is more rife hunters on them. Thats easy for me to say though because I love hunting them that time with a bow. If we do hunt them with rifles that will only take away from the archery oppertunity (Maybe an archery DRAW) for the southern units, and I think most of us don't want to see that.

[soazarcher]

Good luck! We need some more hunting WM's out there!

 

You guys are right, It was a terrible idea.

 

Too much time on the road, i guess.

 

This "opportunity" stuff is really getting to me.

 

Why do people want to go on 10% success hunts???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, wait, don't jump on me! I know why, but i don't have to like it.

 

In AZ, we have the OPPPORTUNITY to have great hunting, but for some reason we choose not to.

 

I just wish we had a few more HIGH QUALITY hunts available, even if they would take max points to draw

 

G&F is increasing tags for '09, in units that had leftovers in '08 (coues). Can anyone explain that to me??

 

If we are not shooting enough deer, why don't we bump the december tag numbers, that are in high demand.

 

example: 200+ tags leftover in unit X, 200+ more tags this year=400 extras that are not in demand. But, wouldn't there be a high demand for 40 additional december tags??? It would knock a bunch of BP holders off the list and offer some great hunting (with only 80-100 tags in the hunt)

 

I'll shut up now

 

Matt

[DubTee]

I hate saying this, but doesn't hunter opportunity also equal more dinero for the state? Could this be a reason they are adhering to that philosophy? I'd be all for decreasing some opportunity for more high quality tags. Heck, I'd be for an increase in tag fees to help off-set the lost revenue, especially for the non-residents.....if you build high quality hunts, they will come. Good topic.

[soazarcher]

Well put Dub

 

 

I know I'll get blasted for saying this, but I would pay double for a deer tag, to have 1/2 the hunters afield

[billrquimby]

>>>>>>>>" I say get rid of all 5000 muley tags and offer 50 that are actually good tags! "<<<<<<<<<<

 

I hope you are kidding. Why not cut them to ten (or five), and auction all of them to the highest bidders?

 

<<<<<<<<<<"I agree what has been said about our desert muledeer, They are sure hurting right now and I personaly feel that the last thing they need is more rife hunters on them. Thats easy for me to say though because I love hunting them that time with a bow. If we do hunt them with rifles that will only take away from the archery oppertunity">>>>>>>>>>>>

 

I hunted mule deer 1-1/2 days last November. We saw a herd with more than 100 does and fawns in it, and not a single buck, both morning and evening of the opening day. Another herd we found in mid-day had more than 60 does and fawns. We also saw perhaps 50 more mule deer does and fawns in groups of two to 10, and not a buck. The herd we found on the morning of the second day had 48 deer, including four bucks, and we shot one of them.

 

There apparently are lots of bucks in that unit (otherwise there would not be so many fawns), but we simply were not good enough hunters to find them. The point is, it looks to me as if there has been fantastic fawn survival over the past five years we have hunted there.

 

Around my cabin in Greer, I am seeing a great many more mule deer than I have seen in at least 20 years. The reason, in my opinion, is the forest service's thinning of the forest for fire control has created openings and more browse.

 

In my opinion, mule deer are doing just fine in the two areas I am most familiar with now.

 

I have no argument with archers -- I used to be one before I dropped a truck on my arm -- but for bowhunters who now have more opportunity than all other deer hunters to say "will only take away from the archery 'opertunity'" is enough to make me want to spit nails!

 

Bill Quimby

[IHunt2live]

Yes hunter oppertuity equals more money but thats not why they did it. Remember that survey they had several years ago. the Majority of the public would pefer oppertunity over quality so thats what the are doing, trying to give the MAJORITY what they want. I don't think anyone on this site is part of that majority so many will disagree with me on this but they are a goverment agency trying to do they best they can for the most they can.

[soazarcher]

Bill, I was kidding, just trying to make a point.

 

300, exactly! Drop 20 tags from unit 8, 27, 23, 10, 44 or 39 or or anywhere in the state and add 5 high quality tags and entirely new hunt option to Arizona. A high quality hunt option. Heck, charge triple, people will pay it.

 

Would the "regular" hunt draw odds be that different if tag #'s dropped from 300 to 280 in unit X?

 

We have seen more dramatic changes, and nobody raises an eyebrow

 

It struck me as funny that you can hunt basically every species in AZ with a rifle in the rut. Obviously, with very low draw odds, but high success. Everything but Desert Mule deer.

 

For that you have to head further south and pay 8-12K!