Muzzleloader help?

[TAM]

I bought a pro hunter and haven't got out to shoot it yet. After talking to another individual with the same gun who has shot his a lot. He advised me to use Blackhorn 209 which is a smokeless powder for muzzle loaders. You don't have to clean the crud after every shot because there is no crud. His groups tightened up considerably. Yes it costs more but it's worth every penny for extra accuracy with a lot less cleaning. Here is the link: http://blackhorn209.com/

 

 

I know nothing about muzzleloaders. I don't have one, never even shot one. During casual conversation, though, with a guy who shoots them a lot, he told me that smokeless powder was illegal to use while hunting?? Don't know if it is true or not, but I thought I would just throw it out there for you. Might be something to look into. I only mention it, because when he told me, I remember thinking to myself that I didn't even know there was a difference.

 

 

Thanks Blake. Can anyone clarify this?

[KGAINES]

There is a muzzleloader by Savage that shoots smokeless powder, I think AZ just states muzzleloader, some states have other rules on powders and the types of projectiles. I will see if I can find it in the regs. I was really considering the Savage as my next firearm purchase. I sent an email to AZGFD with the question and will put the answer up when I receive it, maybe Jim H. (deernut) might know the answer.

http://savagearms.com/muzzleloader_home.htm

[TAM]

Thanks Keith, keep us posted.

 

Here's a buck I found today that looks promising. He's the standing buck that is facing the camera in the first picture. Pretty sure he was the only buck in the entire group. I don't think that he knows that the rut is still another 5 months away!

 

 

 

[bobbyo]

I bought a pro hunter and haven't got out to shoot it yet. After talking to another individual with the same gun who has shot his a lot. He advised me to use Blackhorn 209 which is a smokeless powder for muzzle loaders. You don't have to clean the crud after every shot because there is no crud. His groups tightened up considerably. Yes it costs more but it's worth every penny for extra accuracy with a lot less cleaning. Here is the link: http://blackhorn209.com/

 

 

I know nothing about muzzleloaders. I don't have one, never even shot one. During casual conversation, though, with a guy who shoots them a lot, he told me that smokeless powder was illegal to use while hunting?? Don't know if it is true or not, but I thought I would just throw it out there for you. Might be something to look into. I only mention it, because when he told me, I remember thinking to myself that I didn't even know there was a difference.

 

 

Thanks Blake. Can anyone clarify this?

 

The Buckhorn Powder is a black powder substitute. I believe it would be legal. The savage ML is capable of using regular smokeless powder that you would use in your 300 RUM. My gun is not able to shoot this kind, so I don't know the legalities. I believe your gun can only shoot a blackpowder substitute also, so I would not worry about it.

Keep posting the antelope pictures please. It is getting me fired up.

Bob

[Red Rabbit]

Under R12-4-101, a muzzleloader is defined as using black powder or synthetic black powder.

 

This would preclude the use of modern smokeless powders. I was looking into this before I applied for antelope last year and was considering a muzzloader tag.

[Diamondbackaz]

Bob is right that it is a black powder substitute. I should not have used the word smokeless. There may be issues in some states because this powder is best used with sabots, and must also be used in 209 guns. As far as I know AGFD recognizes muzzleloaders at the way the are loaded, not what they shoot, or what they shoot.

[TAM]

Under R12-4-101, a muzzleloader is defined as using black powder or synthetic black powder.

 

This would preclude the use of modern smokeless powders. I was looking into this before I applied for antelope last year and was considering a muzzloader tag.

 

RR, I'm trying to understand/clarify your explination. "modern smokless" powders like Hodgen, IMR, Reloader, etc would not qualify. However black powder and black powder substitutes such as the "Blackhorn 209", Triple 7, etc would be allowed?

 

Bobbyo, I live right on the edge of my unit, probably about 5 minutes away from where the antelope live. I have a job which keeps me driving around the unit quite a bit. I will no doubt take thousands of pictures before the hunt. I will try and update this post with new pictures as often as time will permit.

 

Thanks,

Tim

[KGAINES]

Mr. Gaines,

 

 

 

Thank you for contacting the Arizona Game and Fish Department with your question. What follows are the rules that define a muzzle-loader. If a weapon is capable of firing fixed ammunition or does not have a single barrel and single chamber, or is not loaded through the muzzle with black powder or synthetic black power or a single projectile then it is not a muzzle-loading rifle or handgun.

 

 

 

So if the weapon you are considering cannot fire fixed ammunition, has only one barrel and one chamber, is loaded through the muzzle with black power or synthetic black powder and a single projectile then it meets Arizona’s definition for a muzzle-loader (these rules are not applicable to tribal lands).

 

 

 

R12-4-101. Definitions

 

A. In addition to the definitions provided in A.R.S. § 17-101, R12-4-401, and R12-4-501, the following definitions apply to this Chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:

 

 

 

14. "Muzzle-loading handgun" means a firearm intended to be fired from the hand, incapable of firing fixed ammunition, having a single barrel and single chamber, and loaded through the muzzle with black powder or synthetic black powder and a single projectile.

 

15. "Muzzle-loading rifle" means a firearm intended to be fired from the shoulder, incapable of firing fixed ammunition, having a single barrel and single chamber, and loaded through the muzzle with black powder or synthetic black powder and a single projectile.

 

 

 

R12-4-318. Seasons for Lawfully Taking Wild Mammals, Birds, and Reptiles

 

A. Methods of lawfully taking wild mammals and birds during seasons designated by Commission order as "general" seasons are designated in R12-4-304. Restrictions designated in subsection © do not apply to general seasons.

 

B. Methods of lawfully taking big game during seasons designated by Commission order as "special" are designated in R12-4-304. "Special" seasons are open only to individuals who possess special big game license tags issued under A.R.S. § 17-346 and R12-4-120.

 

C. When designated by Commission order, the following seasons have specific requirements and lawful methods of take more restrictive than those for general and special seasons, as prescribed in this Section. While taking the species authorized by the season:

 

1. An individual participating in a "muzzleloader" season shall not use or possess any firearm other than muzzle-loading rifles or muzzle-loading handguns, as defined in R12-4-101.

 

 

 

 

 

***************************************

 

Responsive Management Coordinator

 

Arizona Game and Fish Department

 

5000 West Carefree Highway

 

Phoenix, AZ 85086

 

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[Red Rabbit]

Under R12-4-101, a muzzleloader is defined as using black powder or synthetic black powder.

 

This would preclude the use of modern smokeless powders. I was looking into this before I applied for antelope last year and was considering a muzzloader tag.

 

RR, I'm trying to understand/clarify your explination. "modern smokless" powders like Hodgen, IMR, Reloader, etc would not qualify. However black powder and black powder substitutes such as the "Blackhorn 209", Triple 7, etc would be allowed?

 

Thanks,

Tim

 

Tim, What you said is the way I interpreted the rule.

 

Doug~RR

 

[KGAINES]

I asked specifically about modern smokeless powders and this was the response.

 

"The definitions are what they are, and I tend to interpret these as written, but can’t guess at how other officers or the courts will interpret them."

 

 

 

 

[KGAINES]

I e-mailed the commissioners to have them clarify the rule.

 

[TAM]

Here's a buck I saw this afternoon feeding with a group of does. Should be a decent buck when he's done growing. As long as he stays where he's at he should be safe. He lives in an area that is off limits to hunters.

 

 

[bobbyo]

Tam,

Keep the pictures coming. Really this section gets so little use it could be basically a yearbook for your hunt.

 

Your muzzleloader is not capable of shooting MODERN SMOKELESS POWDER, so I do not see how you could get a ticket for any black powder substitute in your gun. Below is straight from encore manual.

 

USE ONLY BLACK POWDER OR AN APPROVED BLACK

POWDER SUBSTITUTE SUCH AS PYRODEX® TO LOAD

YOUR MUZZLELOADING FIREARM. Never use even small

amounts of smokeless powder, even if it is black in color. The

use of any other propellant may cause injury or death to the

shooter or bystanders and damage to property.

• NEVER SMOKE WHILE USING YOUR MUZZLELOADER

 

NEVER USE SMOKELESS POWDER OF ANY TYPE OR IN

ANY QUANTITY IN A MUZZLELOADING FIREARM, AND

NEVER MIX POWDERS. The use of any smokeless powder

could result in a detonation or explosion which could cause

injury and/or death to the shooter or bystanders and damage

to property

[TAM]

The does are getting fat!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CouesFanatic]

What unit is your tag in? I might have the same one but rifle. We should compare notes later on if it is. 18A?