Crossbow permit repeal

[creed]

12 hours ago, wildwoody said:

Oh ya. We can still shoot a gun.  But can we get drawn.

 I’m old enough to remember OTC rifle deer tags. Just a handful of years ago desert rifle deer tags used to be a sure thing with two bonus points.. I have friends and family needing 3-4 now.  I don’t have the time to wait that long. I likely am done if I don’t draw this year. 

[NOTAGS]

15 hours ago, wildwoody said:

Oh ya. We can still shoot a gun.  But can we get drawn.

depends..... on how picky you are.  

[cactusjack]

I went to the Commission meeting.  Unfortunately my voice is gone due to a sinus infection.  

 I struggle with the way crossbow hunters were portrayed in the last meeting by Russ Richardson and  Marvin Zeiser.  I can get the CHAMP permit, with the new requirements, but I shouldn't need to and what about other people that are disabled, but not disabled enough?  I have been speaking with ADA groups and an attorney but hopefully we can find an equitable solution.

 

here is what I tried to communicate. 

  

 

Attached is what I struggled to get through this morning.

Good morning,
Thank you for the opportunity to express my concerns regarding the proposed repeal of R12-4-216 and the debate surrounding crossbow use in archery-only hunts. As an advocate for equitable and fair hunting practices, I believe this change risks alienating and disadvantaging hunters, especially those with physical disabilities who rely on crossbows as their legal method of take.
Numerous allegations have surfaced regarding fraudulently acquired crossbow permits. However, how many of these cases have been formally cited or reported to Operation Game Thief? Without concrete evidence, these claims appear speculative and detract from the core issues.
The argument that crossbow technology has advanced beyond "standard archery equipment" lacks consistency when viewed alongside advancements in other hunting tools. Modern compound bows now feature 90% let-off, trigger releases, and arrow speeds of up to 340 fps. Paired with laser rangefinders, these advancements enable accurate kills at distances exceeding 100 yards—a fact readily verified with a simple search. Singling out crossbows while disregarding these other innovations is both unfair and impractical. If technology is truly a concern, should restrictions also apply to compound bows or other tools? Clearly, such a policy would be unreasonable and inequitable.
Concerns regarding increased crossbow use also lack proper perspective. Arizona’s population has grown by nearly 10% since 2015, naturally increasing the number of hunters. Currently, only 1.3% of permit holders use crossbows—a proportional rise, not an outsized issue. Dr. Harding noted that, in 2010, approximately 895 permanent crossbow permits were processed compared to nearly 1,100 today. This modest increase does not indicate widespread abuse.
Similarly, claims attributing over-the-counter (OTC) unit closures to crossbows fail to consider important nuances. Hunters with disabilities often face significant mobility challenges and must seize opportunities efficiently, while many able-bodied hunters extend seasons in pursuit of trophy harvests. Notably, nearly half of OTC units remained open as of January 14th, with 27 still open today—clearly showing that crossbow hunters are not responsible for widespread closures.
To address these concerns fairly, I propose the following solutions:
Refining CHAMP and Crossbow Permits: Strengthen the application process to ensure accountability from medical professionals and maintain the program’s integrity.
Transitioning to a Draw-Based Archery Season: Implement an equitable draw system for archery tags. Currently, OTC archery hunters enjoy 71 days per year, which could be more fairly balanced.
Ensuring Stakeholder Representation: Include crossbow and CHAMP permit holders in policy focus groups to ensure their perspectives are considered. 
Mandatory Harvest Reporting: Require harvest reporting for all big game species, regardless of season or method of take. Dr. Harding mentioned during the December Commission meeting that two years of crossbow harvest data has been collected but remains statistically inconclusive. More robust data collection is necessary to ensure fairness for all hunters.
The Arizona Game and Fish Department has built public trust through its commitment to responsible wildlife management. Repealing R12-4-216 without addressing these critical concerns risks alienating an important segment of the hunting community and undoing years of progress.
Thank you for your consideration. I trust Arizona Game and Fish will prioritize fairness, inclusivity, and respect as the foundation of Arizona’s outdoor heritage.

Steve King

[bonecollector]

So did it get voted on today?

[654321]

28 minutes ago, bonecollector said:

So did it get voted on today?

They are excepting public comments until April 2nd. They won’t do anything until after that.

[creed]

I had a guy tell me they are going to attempt to get the Americans with Disability Act involved.

 

There is a possibility a can of worms has been opened.

Think I will go fishing

[BOHNTR]

I have no problem with Russ or Marvin’s comments.  Spot on, IMO. But I understand your concerns.  

[wildwoody]

Every has there opinion. Do away with second hunts in units and make a crossbow or ham hunt. Just me

[cactusjack]

OTC archery tags are good for 71 days every year. 

The ABA, Russ Richardson,  Marvin Zeiser, Brian Rimza and others are hypocritically slandering disabled hunters in order to protect their guaranteed 71 days each year.  Apparently, now some of us are cheaters, cowards, lazy, and liars. Purely selfish protectionism. 

Before the archery quota days, nobody cared about what archery method was used. BOHNTR, I took that from your words. 

BOHNTR,  you were on the panel and claim to know 3 people that committed fraud.  Did you turn them in? If not, in my opinion you are an accomplice to fraud. Had you turned them in, it's up to Game and Fish to investigate and possibly charge them.  

If you know someone is fraudulently buying an In State license and tag, would you turn them in? 

I don't hunt OTC deer, but if I wanted to I could and should be able to with my permanent crossbow permit.  The ADA attorneys are ready. 

 

[knothead]

1 hour ago, cactusjack said:

OTC archery tags are good for 71 days every year. 

The ABA, Russ Richardson,  Marvin Zeiser, Brian Rimza and others are hypocritically slandering disabled hunters in order to protect their guaranteed 71 days each year.  Apparently, now some of us are cheaters, cowards, lazy, and liars. Purely selfish protectionism. 

Before the archery quota days, nobody cared about what archery method was used. BOHNTR, I took that from your words. 

BOHNTR,  you were on the panel and claim to know 3 people that committed fraud.  Did you turn them in? If not, in my opinion you are an accomplice to fraud. Had you turned them in, it's up to Game and Fish to investigate and possibly charge them.  

If you know someone is fraudulently buying an In State license and tag, would you turn them in? 

I don't hunt OTC deer, but if I wanted to I could and should be able to with my permanent crossbow permit.  The ADA attorneys are ready. 

 

I think you need to stop and look at the data and statistics to know that the crossbow permitting system was clearly being abused.  Crossbow permit holders are taking a disproportionate number of deer and thus reducing opportunity for bowhunters.  Your argument is based off emotion and not rational thought.

[AZbowhntr]

Cactusjack, I understand where you are coming from and somewhat agree with you.  However, you keep talking about how everyone is an accomplice to fraud by not turning abusers in.  That is a very loose statement that you are using as everyone of them has gone in to a doctor and received a signed form stating that they are handicapped in some way that is 100% legal. In our minds, they are abusing the system but in fact they are going through the proper channels to receive the permit just like you did. So, maybe they are abusing the system but prove it.  Good luck with that. I am kind of in the middle of the road as I see both sides of the issue. Just no solution. There are only so many days in a year that we can hunt and everyone wants to create another hunt for this or that. We are at a point that we have to steal tags from one hunt to give tags to other hunts.  So there will always be someone that is not happy.

[BOHNTR]

2 hours ago, cactusjack said:

OTC archery tags are good for 71 days every year. 

The ABA, Russ Richardson,  Marvin Zeiser, Brian Rimza and others are hypocritically slandering disabled hunters in order to protect their guaranteed 71 days each year.  Apparently, now some of us are cheaters, cowards, lazy, and liars. Purely selfish protectionism. 

Before the archery quota days, nobody cared about what archery method was used. BOHNTR, I took that from your words. 

BOHNTR,  you were on the panel and claim to know 3 people that committed fraud.  Did you turn them in? If not, in my opinion you are an accomplice to fraud. Had you turned them in, it's up to Game and Fish to investigate and possibly charge them.  

If you know someone is fraudulently buying an In State license and tag, would you turn them in? 

I don't hunt OTC deer, but if I wanted to I could and should be able to with my permanent crossbow permit.  The ADA attorneys are ready. 

 

First off, it is apparent that you have little no true understanding of criminal law and what is needed by an agency to secure a charge that would withstand a trial and or judge. Having been in that field for over 30 years, I may have a bit more understanding. It is difficult for an agency to invalidate a physicians signature the way the permit system is CURRENTLY implemented.  As such, the department has elected not to challenge some of those abused permits. Instead, they have ‘revamped’ the entire system AND redefined what archery equipment should be……essentially closing the loophole.  Crossbows, except for those legally permitted through CHAMP, did not fit their definition.  
 

Good luck with a civil ‘challenge’.  It’s been tried before in other states and failed.  The fact is, you must prove that there is NO opportunity for permanently impaired sportsman who NEED to use a crossbow. That simply is not the issue here, as the system provides many opportunities the use a crossbow providing they meet the requirements.  Additionally, other weapon systems are available to use instead of a crossbow.  Nothing prevents you from hunting with a muzzleloader, pistol, etc., and a crossbow is not a legally ‘guaranteed’ weapon system.  No weapons system is.  

It’s ironic that you believe Russ is slanderous towards handicapped people…..especially when he deals with a special needs family member daily.  Perhaps you should look at this issue objectively, analyze factual data, and then form an opinion. Your rhetoric above depicts an emotional response, which usually doesn’t bode well in these types of proceedings.  Having said that, I still understand your concerns, I just don’t support them.  

 

[HuntHarder]

Emotional response reminds me of Josiah and the trail cam ban.  His lawyers failed, as I am hoping these new ones will.  Grab a gun and go hunting, if you can no longer bowhunt.  It is what I will do, when that day comes..

[cactusjack]

20 hours ago, knothead said:

I think you need to stop and look at the data and statistics to know that the crossbow permitting system was clearly being abused.  Crossbow permit holders are taking a disproportionate number of deer and thus reducing opportunity for bowhunters.  Your argument is based off emotion and not rational thought.

statistics. Dr Hardin, who works for Game and Fish, in December said "the 2 years of harvest data is not statistically defensible".  and there are still 30 archery units open.  

[cactusjack]

19 hours ago, BOHNTR said:

First off, it is apparent that you have little no true understanding of criminal law and what is needed by an agency to secure a charge that would withstand a trial and or judge. Having been in that field for over 30 years, I may have a bit more understanding. It is difficult for an agency to invalidate a physicians signature the way the permit system is CURRENTLY implemented.  As such, the department has elected not to challenge some of those abused permits. Instead, they have ‘revamped’ the entire system AND redefined what archery equipment should be……essentially closing the loophole.  Crossbows, except for those legally permitted through CHAMP, did not fit their definition.  
 

Good luck with a civil ‘challenge’.  It’s been tried before in other states and failed.  The fact is, you must prove that there is NO opportunity for permanently impaired sportsman who NEED to use a crossbow. That simply is not the issue here, as the system provides many opportunities the use a crossbow providing they meet the requirements.  Additionally, other weapon systems are available to use instead of a crossbow.  Nothing prevents you from hunting with a muzzleloader, pistol, etc., and a crossbow is not a legally ‘guaranteed’ weapon system.  No weapons system is.  

It’s ironic that you believe Russ is slanderous towards handicapped people…..especially when he deals with a special needs family member daily.  Perhaps you should look at this issue objectively, analyze factual data, and then form an opinion. Your rhetoric above depicts an emotional response, which usually doesn’t bode well in these types of proceedings.  Having said that, I still understand your concerns, I just don’t support them.  

 

how does having an special needs child make him a spokesperson for people with a disability?   it doesn't.  No more than me being a disabled veteran or having grown up with a foster sister with sever cerebral palsy, that lived with us for 15 years makes me an expert.  I have been dealing with the VA for 20+ years, so my perspective is different.  I can get a CHAMP permit, according to the new requirements, so this isn't sour grapes. 

I will agree that disabled hunters that qualify for the new requirements of the CHAMP permit, will have the same 71 days a year of access to OTC deer tags, however what happens to those who are disabled, but not disabled enough, but still cant pull and hold a bow well enough to use it?  They get to put in for draw hunts.  So they dont have the same opportunity.   

 

A.R.S. 17-101  Guides are required to report violations , that the guide knew of or should have known...... Russ claimed to know outfitters that had people commit fraud.  

Statistics are never skewed to show a preferred outcome

Dr Hardin from Game and Fish gave some statistics in her presentation in Dec. 

In 2010 there were 895 permanent crossbow permits issued compared to almost 1100 a year now. a 22% increase  --Az population in 2010 was 6,407,342 and in 2024 is 7,582,384, an increase of 1,175,042 or an 18.339% increase in population. That is a 14 year window, so the hunting population is aging and with age comes frailty or disability. Information about the permit has spread, people that would have quit bow hunting found a way to legally continue.  The 22% increase in applicants is not a shock when you look at the 18.339 % population increase and factor in aging hunters.  

She also said the 2 years of harvest data isnt statistically defensible by itself.   What other factors are in play?

You were a part of the focus group, do you have the totals on how many permanent crossbow permits have been issued and are still being used? and how many temporary ones have been issued and are still being used?   

How many CHAMP permits are there currently and how many do they expect to now qualify?  There are 95 any elk CHAMP permits this year. I hope they are ready for the competition for those.