Is Shane Koury the next guide to lose license?

[654321]

On 9/13/2024 at 9:51 PM, MogollonMan said:

I came upon this topic and was intrigued by some of the comments. I believe AZGFD has a long history of overstep and abuse of authority. For example when they passed unconstitutional rules prohibiting hunters from carrying a firearm while archery hunting. This AZGFD rule was overturned because AZGFD has no authority to pass laws/rules beyond the scope of taking game. As long as the archery hunter doesn’t use his firearm in the process of taking the game, AZGFD should and has to mind their own business and not infringe on second amendment rights.

Based on this limited information, it seems Mr. Koury is a victim of another AZGFD overreach. As long as an individual isn’t fly to aid in taking big game, AZGFD has no jurisdiction to tell anyone when or where they can fly, even during an open hunt. So unless AZGFD can prove Mr. Koury had a tag for the OTC elk hunt, or was helping someone for that hunt, they have no case. Mr. Koury was within his legal rights to fly anywhere he wanted in the area up until the 48 hour period before his hunt. It sounds like this incident occurred a week or two before hunt? 
So if all of this is accurate, Mr. Koury should absolutely win his appeal, the warden should be reprimanded, and AZGFD needs to apologize for their abuse of authority AGAIN.

Actually AZGFD does have the jurisdiction to tell people when or where they can fly hence the reason for the ticket. I think it has more to do with how you're flying in a certain area, big difference in flying from point A to point B at a couple thousand feet and circling your hunting area hundreds of feet off the ground.  I would have to assume that Mr. Koury hired a lawyer to fight this citation. For this to end up in court I would have to guess the prosecuting attorney felt the evidence against Mr. Koury was strong enough that the state would win its case.  For whatever reason it looks like Mr. Koury chose a nonjury trial and a Judge found him guilty not the WM who wrote the citation.  I don't know why you feel the WM who wrote the citation should be reprimanded for doing his job which is enforcing the law and rules.  There are plenty of citations that WM's write that get tossed out or the defendant is found not guilty, and I don't think I've ever heard of the WM being reprimanded and the department apologizing for it.  As for Mr. Koury I'm guessing there is a great deal riding on his appeal.

[Coues247]

1 hour ago, 654321 said:

Actually AZGFD does have the jurisdiction to tell people when or where they can fly hence the reason for the ticket. I think it has more to do with how you're flying in a certain area, big difference in flying from point A to point B at a couple thousand feet and circling your hunting area hundreds of feet off the ground.  I would have to assume that Mr. Koury hired a lawyer to fight this citation. For this to end up in court I would have to guess the prosecuting attorney felt the evidence against Mr. Koury was strong enough that the state would win its case.  For whatever reason it looks like Mr. Koury chose a nonjury trial and a Judge found him guilty not the WM who wrote the citation.  I don't know why you feel the WM who wrote the citation should be reprimanded for doing his job which is enforcing the law and rules.  There are plenty of citations that WM's write that get tossed out or the defendant is found not guilty, and I don't think I've ever heard of the WM being reprimanded and the department apologizing for it.  As for Mr. Koury I'm guessing there is a great deal riding on his appeal.

Making a rule out of thin air doesn't mean azgfd had the jurisdiction to enforce it. They have the ability to make the rule and now the courts will decide if the rule is enforceable as written. Someone getting a ticket for it and fighting it is usually the process on how laws/rules are either upheld or reversed. The azgfd commission aren't kings that can make laws and rules without restriction. 

[654321]

24 minutes ago, Coues247 said:

Making a rule out of thin air doesn't mean azgfd had the jurisdiction to enforce it. They have the ability to make the rule and now the courts will decide if the rule is enforceable as written. Someone getting a ticket for it and fighting it is usually the process on how laws/rules are either upheld or reversed. The azgfd commission aren't kings that can make laws and rules without restriction. 

Please enlighten me on who enforces the laws and rules that are in place. Last time I checked cops are better known as Law enforcement officers  

[Coues247]

25 minutes ago, 654321 said:

Please enlighten me on who enforces the laws and rules that are in place. Last time I checked cops are better known as Law enforcement officers  

Reading comprehension is an important skill to have my friend. I mentioned nothing about law enforcement officers. I spoke about the ones that made the rule. Keep up. 

[jgraffaz]

57 minutes ago, 654321 said:

Actually AZGFD does have the jurisdiction to tell people when or where they can fly hence the reason for the ticket. I think it has more to do with how you're flying in a certain area, big difference in flying from point A to point B at a couple thousand feet and circling your hunting area hundreds of feet off the ground.  I would have to assume that Mr. Koury hired a lawyer to fight this citation. For this to end up in court I would have to guess the prosecuting attorney felt the evidence against Mr. Koury was strong enough that the state would win its case.  For whatever reason it looks like Mr. Koury chose a nonjury trial and a Judge found him guilty not the WM who wrote the citation.  I don't know why you feel the WM who wrote the citation should be reprimanded for doing his job which is enforcing the law and rules.  There are plenty of citations that WM's write that get tossed out or the defendant is found not guilty, and I don't think I've ever heard of the WM being reprimanded and the department apologizing for it.  As for Mr. Koury I'm guessing there is a great deal riding on his appeal.

This is the problem that he is referring too. These fish cops can just throw stuff against the wall and wait to see what sticks. A lot of the time, it seems like there is no accountability or skin in the game for them making these accusations but the people they are accusing of committing these crimes will have their lives significantly affected by such accusations even if the individual is innocent. These false accusations can financially ruin someone, not to mention the time suck and public smear campaign (as we can see in this thread) it can have on someone who might not have even broken the law. The WM can throw these charges around and worst case scenario for the WM is they get dropped. Best case scenario for the accused person is they “win” the case at the expense hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars, hundreds of hours of their time, etc. After all, the WM and legal system is funded by the people they are accusing, tough to take on the government or IRS or any government bureaucracy because no matter what they have unlimited resources compared to a private individual.

Now I don’t know enough facts to make a judgment about this particular case against Koury. But I have seen some of these fish cops with little man syndrome and jealousy connive their way into issuing some BS charges. Not saying all are bad but some are. I see the need and support enforcing laws but it should be done in a way that isn’t punitive or based on an individuals feelings like it seems to be some of the time. 
 

here is a real life example explaining a what I’m talking about. Worth the 5 minute YouTube video. 
 

 

[MogollonMan]

2 hours ago, 654321 said:

Actually AZGFD does have the jurisdiction to tell people when or where they can fly hence the reason for the ticket. I think it has more to do with how you're flying in a certain area, big difference in flying from point A to point B at a couple thousand feet and circling your hunting area hundreds of feet off the ground.  I would have to assume that Mr. Koury hired a lawyer to fight this citation. For this to end up in court I would have to guess the prosecuting attorney felt the evidence against Mr. Koury was strong enough that the state would win its case.  For whatever reason it looks like Mr. Koury chose a nonjury trial and a Judge found him guilty not the WM who wrote the citation.  I don't know why you feel the WM who wrote the citation should be reprimanded for doing his job which is enforcing the law and rules.  There are plenty of citations that WM's write that get tossed out or the defendant is found not guilty, and I don't think I've ever heard of the WM being reprimanded and the department apologizing for it.  As for Mr. Koury I'm guessing there is a great deal riding on his appeal.

You are incorrect. AZGFD has no jurisdiction over where people can fly unless it directly pertains to their charter of game & fish. It is really frightening how easily you are willing to blindly hand over authority to your rights.
After your comments, I dug into this a little further today. It turns out this “judge” is a justice of the peace, an elected official not required to have any formal legal experience or education in order to qualify for office. Untrained under qualified judges with overzealous prosecutors (out of Colorado City none the less), WMs who get a little tingle in their dingle at the prospect of “getting” a well known guide, and AZGFD who has repeatedly demonstrated they have no respect for their own boundaries. Talk about a giant circle jerk!

[654321]

12 minutes ago, Coues247 said:

Reading comprehension is an important skill to have my friend. I mentioned nothing about law enforcement officers. I spoke about the ones that made the rule. Keep up. 

😂, you used the word “Jurisdiction “ who’s jurisdiction do you think it is to enforce title 17 and the commission rules? Keep up my friend the title 17 and the commission rules do indeed fall under the AZGFD and their WM enforce those laws and rules

[654321]

2 minutes ago, MogollonMan said:

You are incorrect. AZGFD has no jurisdiction over where people can fly unless it directly pertains to their charter of game & fish. It is really frightening how easily you are willing to blindly hand over authority to your rights.
After your comments, I dug into this a little further today. It turns out this “judge” is a justice of the peace, an elected official not required to have any formal legal experience or education in order to qualify for office. Untrained under qualified judges with overzealous prosecutors (out of Colorado City none the less), wardens who get a little tingle in their dingle at the prospect of “getting” a well known guide, and AZGFD who has no respect for their boundaries. Talk about a giant circle jerk!

I don’t believe he was written a citation for just flying around. I believe he was written a citation for flying during an open big game hunt which indeed falls under their jurisdiction.  We wouldn’t even be having this conversation if he hadn’t broken a rule everyone must follow.

[jgraffaz]

4 minutes ago, 654321 said:

I don’t believe he was written a citation for just flying around. I believe he was written a citation for flying during an open big game hunt which indeed falls under their jurisdiction.  We wouldn’t even be having this conversation if he hadn’t broken a rule everyone must follow.

It’s not illegal to fly around during open big game hunts.

[654321]

4 minutes ago, jgraffaz said:

It’s not illegal to fly around during open big game hunts.

B. Except in hunt units with Commission-ordered special seasons under R12-4-115 and R12-4-120 and hunt units with seasons only for mountain lion and no other concurrent big game season, a person shall not locate or assist in locating wildlife from or with the aid of an aircraft, including drones, in a hunt unit with an open big game season. This restriction begins 48 hours before the opening of a big game season in a hunt unit and extends until the close of the big game season for that hunt.

I believe he was trying to locate deer.  

[jgraffaz]

3 minutes ago, 654321 said:

B. Except in hunt units with Commission-ordered special seasons under R12-4-115 and R12-4-120 and hunt units with seasons only for mountain lion and no other concurrent big game season, a person shall not locate or assist in locating wildlife from or with the aid of an aircraft, including drones, in a hunt unit with an open big game season. This restriction begins 48 hours before the opening of a big game season in a hunt unit and extends until the close of the big game season for that hunt.

I believe he was trying to locate deer.  

This makes my point. cannot be used to help take or locate wildlife during an open season. This restriction applies 48 hours before the start of a big game season and lasts until the season ends. 
 

I don’t believe he was trying to locate deer. Burden of proof is on the prosecutor. Unless they have evidence that he was trying to locate big game he’s not guilty and has every right to fly wherever the heck he wants.
 

Now I’m just playing devils advocate and trying to tell you how I believe this all really works. I don’t personally know the guy or care about his case 

 

 

[MogollonMan]

14 minutes ago, 654321 said:

B. Except in hunt units with Commission-ordered special seasons under R12-4-115 and R12-4-120 and hunt units with seasons only for mountain lion and no other concurrent big game season, a person shall not locate or assist in locating wildlife from or with the aid of an aircraft, including drones, in a hunt unit with an open big game season. This restriction begins 48 hours before the opening of a big game season in a hunt unit and extends until the close of the big game season for that hunt.

I believe he was trying to locate deer.  

I don't have any idea about what he was trying to locate. I don't know the man. I am just fed up with AZGFD overreach, bias, and bad WMs. Don't get me wrong, I personally know several great WMs. But you must have missed the part where he was flying what is said to be 1-2 weeks before his deer hunt, which is 100% legal. Only way it becomes illegal is if he had a tag for the OTC elk or was helping a hunter with a tag for that hunt. I haven't seen anyone or anything suggest that is the case.

I would suspect you have some bias against Mr. Koury or guides in general? Seems something is clouding your basic logic?

[654321]

Just now, MogollonMan said:

I don't have any idea about what he was trying to locate. I don't know the man. But you must have missed the part where he was flying what is said to be 1-2 weeks before his deer hunt, which is 100% legal. Only way it becomes illegal is if he had a tag for the OTC elk or was helping a hunter with a tag for that hunt. I haven't seen anyone or anything suggest that is the case?

I would suspect you have some bias against Mr. Koury or guides in general?Seems something is clouding you logic?

No bias against Mr. Koury have never met the guy. Don't have problems with guides have a few friends who have guide license and are currently with clients now. 

[654321]

44 minutes ago, jgraffaz said:

This is the problem that he is referring too. These fish cops can just throw stuff against the wall and wait to see what sticks. A lot of the time, it seems like there is no accountability or skin in the game for them making these accusations but the people they are accusing of committing these crimes will have their lives significantly affected by such accusations even if the individual is innocent. These false accusations can financially ruin someone, not to mention the time suck and public smear campaign (as we can see in this thread) it can have on someone who might not have even broken the law. The WM can throw these charges around and worst case scenario for the WM is they get dropped. Best case scenario for the accused person is they “win” the case at the expense hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars, hundreds of hours of their time, etc. After all, the WM and legal system is funded by the people they are accusing, tough to take on the government or IRS or any government bureaucracy because no matter what they have unlimited resources compared to a private individual.

Now I don’t know enough facts to make a judgment about this particular case against Koury. But I have seen some of these fish cops with little man syndrome and jealousy connive their way into issuing some BS charges. Not saying all are bad but some are. I see the need and support enforcing laws but it should be done in a way that isn’t punitive or based on an individuals feelings like it seems to be some of the time. 
 

here is a real life example explaining a what I’m talking about. Worth the 5 minute YouTube video. 
 

 

Seems Ted Nugent has to make these videos often, he also has one explaining his no contest plea in California for a baiting charge.  

[jgraffaz]

2 minutes ago, 654321 said:

Seems Ted Nugent has to make these videos often, he also has one explaining his no contest plea in California for a baiting charge.  

Seems like you have no response to my comment