baiting, salting

[bobbyo]

Good Afternoon,

 

The below table shows the white-tailed deer harvest in game management unit 22 from 2001 to 2007. You will see the reported archery harvest increased until in 2006 more white-tailed deer were taken during the archery season than during the general firearms hunt.

 

GAME MANAGEMENT UNIT 22 WHITE-TAILED DEER HARVEST

 

Year Archery Harvest General Harvest Total Archery % of Total Harvest

2001 25 139 164 15%

2002 47 129 176 27%

2003 47 155 202 23%

2004 27 129 156 17%

2005 67 117 184 36%

2006 97 96 193 50%

2007 53 158 211 25%

 

 

 

Ron Day

Small Game, Predator and Furbearer Biologist

Arizona Game and Fish Department

 

Man you guys are well behaved today! Hopefully we keep this civil. Now let me add my gripes.

 

1. Why is it such a crime to have bowhunting harvest exceed rifle harvest. Why is there a cap only on bowhunting harvest. If you know what the bow harvest is through mandatory reporting just reduce the rifle tags. I know, what a crazy idea, rifle hunters are what we are managing game for and the archery guys are the ugly step child that needs more rules and regulations. Archery hunters seem to be a terrible nuisance to game and fish.

 

2. Unit 22 north is a perfect example of where bow hunting can be as effective as rifle hunting. The thick cover, lack of glassability make it a hard hunt for a limited rifle season. Unit 22 south is more suitable to rifle hunting tactics. I will bet a large amount of money that if 22 were split into north and south for deer like the Elk hunt that there is no way that archers could come close to the rifle hunters harvest numbers in the southern unit. Likewise even if baiting is banned archers are going to harvest close to the same percentage as rifle hunters in the north. Unit 22 archery success is terrain and enviornment driven. So when archers come up with a tactic that may slightly increase their already long odds of actually harvesting an animal a meeting must be called.

 

3. As you can tell I feel their is a bias against archery hunting. I know, we hunters have to stick together and support one another blah blah blah, but as i stated in other posts this proposed rule is not about harvest numbers. It is not about CWD. Its not about fair chase. It is not about success on little deer. Its not even about the anti-hunters. The real reason???? The huge trophy's archers have been shooting over salt. Deep down you know it is true. This rule is jealousy pure and simple. Look at the number of 120+++" inch bucks taken and pictured very nicely during the early bow season on this very site. Look at the nice, but yet, don't quite measure up rifle deer taken this year. Its easy, to see that it is time to make a new regulation to stop the archers from stealing all the rifle hunters trophy deer.

 

Bob

[bowhunter4life]

Ron,

 

1) Can you provide a unit by unit archery success for the last 5 years? Number of mule deer/ coues deer by unit

2) Do you have any facts, # per harvest of types I.E. 5 mule deer harvest over salt, 8 mule deer over water, 3 mule deer spot stock, 1 mule deer" dumb luck standing off the side of a trail" same with coues per unit?

3) As for your breakdown of the deer harvest for 22 what is the amount that was taken over bait, also what is the break down between mule deer, coues deer

4) Since we lost our december hunts this year in many units, would'nt it be wise to wait and see what the success is for 2008. We now have lost 1/3rd of our archery hunting, many believe this was our best archery hunting time, peak rut.

5) What is the dept. goal for hunt success by unit, # bucks for archery, muzzy, rifle. I.E 15 coues archery, 20 coues muzzy, 90 rifle for a total of 125 coues bucks for 22?

 

 

I think for us as hunters, AZGFD, to ban a hunting method without true facts is foolishness. This is allot like our september bull hunts, 2 years ago there was a push to shift bull tags from september to nov. fast forward to dec 2008 and here we are again drafting a survey to prove that az elk hunters would rather wait for a quality bull hunt then hunt elk in nov.

 

Also look at the new draw units for archery deer like unit 7, wasn't there more then half of those tags not ever used even after the left over process? Does this mean that unit 7 will go back to being over the counter?

 

Again thank you Ron for taking the time to post the truth about this new rule change;

 

Mike

[hunterdude]

Hey it is good to voice your opinion, but are they taking names and checking bonus points. I have salt out but it is right near the game tanks and I have not sat on them yet becuase the road hunters always drive up to the tanks and walk around them. I believe that salt being a natural element should not be concidered as a target, I can understand maybe a feeder or a peanut butter lick or something of that sort but salt? Makes no sence except another way for the activist within the G & F. I guess we have to not only fight for our right to keep and bear arms but now the right to distribute salt for the wildlife!

[TAM]

I have an idea..... Lets ban road hunting? I'm sure there are more deer killed each year using this method than salt, and it would be much easier to enforce. G&F could even go out on STING operations with a fake life sized buck and place it off the side of the road and let the road hunters drive by and jump out of there pickup and blast away at the fake buck! Then the G&F officers could jump out of the bushes and issue citations to the dirty scumbag road hunters! I'll bet if we did that then there would be no more road hunting in Arizona!........ Oh wait, I forgot, it's already illegal to road hunt in AZ.

 

We can't even enforce the simple rules we've got and we want to make more rules that are even more difficult to enforce than the first rules. What are people thinking???

[curmudgen]

Take a look at the thread on the archery forum and you'll see where this is going. Texas style stands and feeders. There's even an outfitter bragging that his feeding deer is resulting in more twin fawns and improving the health of the herd. What crap. That's not deer hunting, except back east and in Texas. What'll we have next? Food plots in the forest behind some rancher's locked gates and accessible only for a fee? Bow hunters already are privileged to hunt before the rest of us and during the rut and to avoid the uncertainties of the draw. They always told me it was the challenge they wanted, but now they seem to want box blinds and food plots and think hunting as we know it will end if they don't get their way. They may have some valid concerns, but Game and Fish has some valid points as well that need to be addressed. Jack

[bowsniper]

Bow hunters already are privileged to hunt before the rest of us and during the rut and to avoid the uncertainties of the draw. They always told me it was the challenge they wanted, but now they seem to want box blinds and food plots and think hunting as we know it will end if they don't get their way. Jack

 

 

That's right! Let's have the rifle hunters and bow hunters fight it out!! Along with salt, let's ban the laser range finders, high power spotting scopes, and fancy turrent scopes that let you shoot out to 800 yards. That's not hunting! That's lazy!!

 

 

Divided we will fall.

 

Mark

[JMP]

sounds liky bobbyo may be right

[bowsniper]

Bow hunters already are privileged to hunt before the rest of us and during the rut and to avoid the uncertainties of the draw. They always told me it was the challenge they wanted, but now they seem to want box blinds and food plots and think hunting as we know it will end if they don't get their way. Jack

 

 

That's right! Let's have the rifle hunters and bow hunters fight it out!! Along with salt, let's ban the laser range finders, high power spotting scopes, and fancy turrent scopes that let you shoot out to 800 yards. That's not hunting! That's lazy!!

 

 

Divided we will fall.

 

Mark

 

But if you shoot from at least 185.56 yards, with only a 4x scope, and do not glass for more that 27 minutes before you find a buck, you are ok. These are my hunting ethics, and if you don't follow them, you are lazy and unethical. We need new G&F regulations to enforce these ethical rules!!

 

Mark

[wklman]

i'm with the game and fish on this one. ban it and turn everybody back into hunters.theres nothing natural or sporting about putting out bait and waiting for an animal to come in and feed so you can get a better shot at a deer.

 

 

Wade

[bowhunter4life]

i'm with the game and fish on this one. ban it and turn everybody back into hunters.theres nothing natural or sporting about putting out bait and waiting for an animal to come in and feed so you can get a better shot at a deer.

 

 

Wade

 

Let me guess, but it is ok for you to use high power glasses and a scoped rifle to nock off a deer at 300 yards with know clue you are sitting across the canyon from? just a question.

[bowhunter4life]

 

 

GAME MANAGEMENT UNIT 22 WHITE-TAILED DEER HARVEST

 

Year Archery Harvest General Harvest Total Archery % of Total Harvest

2001 25 139 164 15%

2002 47 129 176 27%

2003 47 155 202 23%

2004 27 129 156 17%

2005 67 117 184 36%

2006 97 96 193 50%

2007 53 158 211 25%

 

 

 

Ron Day

Small Game, Predator and Furbearer Biologist

Arizona Game and Fish Department

 

 

 

Ron,

Was not 2006 the year we had the drought and also the cavecreek/complex fire through the end of July? Did we not loose 100,000's of acres from unit 22? would this not account for the limiting water holes throughout that area and really pocketing those deer during that time frame? Since the bow season started only a few week later. Yes I was there and yes we did harvest some coues bucks off water during that time. The point is AZGFD has no facts showing how those deer were harvested, you can only guess. If I was guessing I would think more then half were taken over water. mike

 

[TAM]

i'm with the game and fish on this one. ban it and turn everybody back into hunters.theres nothing natural or sporting about putting out bait and waiting for an animal to come in and feed so you can get a better shot at a deer.

 

 

Wade

 

Let me guess, but it is ok for you to use high power glasses and a scoped rifle to nock off a deer at 300 yards with know clue you are sitting across the canyon from? just a question.

 

 

What's the difference between using salt to attract a deer and using a bugle/cow call to attract an elk? Or perhaps a dieing rabitt call to attract a coyote or bear? What about creating mock scrapes to attract a buck? What about using a buck antelope decoy to attract an antelope? What about sitting water to attract game? How about using dogs to run a cat up a tree? Am I still less of a hunter if I use these other methods to attract my query?

[JMP]

i'm with the game and fish on this one. ban it and turn everybody back into hunters.theres nothing natural or sporting about putting out bait and waiting for an animal to come in and feed so you can get a better shot at a deer.

 

 

Wade

 

how is there nothing natural about it?? don't the crocodiles wait for the zebras to come get a drink? a crocodile isn't a cheetah, but does that make it less of a hunter? to each his own craft. it's not like the deer are hearing the feeders and running in for their dinner salivating the entire way.

[DesertBull]

If you don't like Oprah, don't watch her show

If you don't like liver, don't eat it

If you don't like Ford's, don't buy one

If you don't like salt or baiting, don't use it

[JMP]

at least Jim Hefflinger had the decency to stick around and discuss the justification for the altered hunt structures, and increased number of tags in the heavy hit unit 33. that was a long post, and he kept responding to everyone's concerns. This guy, Mr. Day, posts bogus statistics, and dissapears. this thing is already done.