Genetics

[TREESTANDMAN]

I don't remember if this topic has been covered or not but I wanted to see what your opinions are on why it is that some areas have extremely big bucks and some areas have just small to average bucks. Is it because of low hunting pressure which allows many bucks to grow older and larger because of denied access? Is it because of the area harbors less lions? Is it because of the water/food/mineral resources are abundant? Is it because of the gene pool? I'm sure there are a combination of these factors that attribute to the larger than normal buck, but if you were to pick just one, which would it be?

 

I think I will pick the genetic gene pool as the #1 factor. Maybe those genetics however come from the food/water/mineral resources over time in that area.

[Guest Ernesto C]

If you alredy knew the answer.....why ask? It looks to me you already answered your question

 

Ernesto C.

[CHD]

Treestandman, I'll take you up on this discussion. Thanks for getting this one going.

 

As we all know, a buck needs age, feed, and genetics to grow a big rack.

 

Maturity is a necessity for a buck to reach his full potential. Tag allocations among units usually dictates the age structure within each unit. Some units are managed as trophy units with few tags and plenty of 4+ year old bucks. Others are managed to maximize 'hunter opportunity' with most bucks killed before 3 years, resulting in few 4+ in that unit. Therefore management has a huge influence on big bucks numbers in each unit. A heavy lion population can make it hard for a buck to live 4+ years, not to mention the fact that lions commonly kill mature bucks because they both are reclusive and live in rougher, out-of-the way places. So lion numbers can influence mature buck numbers as well. However, even old bucks may not have big racks if they have poor or even mediocre genetics. So having old bucks doesn't automatically guarantee big ones.

 

I believe that genetics are more important than feed......far more important. On a drought year, a mature buck with super genetics may have a rack that is only 85% of it's maximum potential.........but will still have a great rack. There are areas such as eastern Colorado where there just isn't a lot of good quality classic muley feed (there ain't much browse on the prairie), but muley hawgs live there because of the super gene pool. There are also areas like northern Nevada where there is a lot of tremendous muley feed such as bitterbrush, serviceberry, chokecherry, mtn mahogany, etc... and many mature bucks only have average racks because of mediocre genetics. So great feed doesn't automatically produce a big rack, and mediocre feed doesn't automatically keep a super rack from growing. Feed quality only makes slight differences in rack sizes. Noticeable ones, but still slight. So, find a mature buck in a genetically superior area, and he'll prolly have a great rack on a drought year and a super rack on a wet year. Given the choice between an area with great feed and mediocre genetics and an area with mediocre feed and super genetics, I'll take the genetics every time, assuming age class is equal among both. I've seen many, many huge bucks taken in sorry looking areas that look like no deer would be living there. I've also seen some drought-proof bucks that were absolute hawgs living right among severely drought stunted bucks.

 

I also believe that super genetics can somewhat overcome an age-class problem in a unit because a buck that is a whopper at 5 years old prolly was a fairly decent buck at 3. Particularly with Coues deer, since they mature early.

 

One other thing that you Arizona folks don't have to deal with that can influence rack size is bad, prolonged winters. A buck that got his butt kicked by a bad winter after being run ragged during the rut must spend much more of his springtime and summer nutrition rebuilding his body before feeding his growing rack. That's just nature's way.

 

In summary, I agree with you Treestandman. IMO, genetics is the most important factor in producing a big rack.

[111]

Genetics seem to be #1 for producing trophy class bucks. I think most bucks are capable of growing a big set of antlers given the years to do it, but for the bucks that really stand out have good genetics and plenty of years. #2 would be food/water/cover. I have yet to find big bucks that live far from food, and a reliable water source, but I think the most important out of the three is very thick cover nearby.

[TREESTANDMAN]

Great responses. Keep them coming.

[Manamal]

I agree with the above posts, a combonation of all factors will most certainly produce bigger than average bucks, with genetics being the most important.

 

Take this for what its worth, but I remember hearing or reading somewhere down the line that an area with above average amounts of sulpher and phospherous in the soil will produce large antlered deer. I have seen some huge desert bucks near southern AZ mines, however I don't know anything about mining, but maybe there is something in the soil.

 

What about fire? When a wildfire burns through an area fast enough not to damage the soil, the new growth is high in nutrition and readily eaten by deer. There are some big 'ol bucks in Arizonas fire scarred landscape.

 

Good topic!!

[Rembrant]

I'm not so sure that there are areas that just produce small to average bucks. A quick glance at the record book reveals a wide assortment of areas that have produced monsters. Might be a fun thing to do a little study using the record book and listing the entries and scores for all of the areas.

What units do the biggest racks come from?

What units do the most enties come from?

What units have the least entries?

Is there a whitetail unit that has no entries?

Is there a unit that is for whitetail what the Kaibab is for muleys?

Of course there will be a top unit, but I don't think there will be a large separation from the other units (like the Kaibab/Strip is for muleys).

I'm not saying I know. I don't. But my gut feeling is that good antler genes are spread out all over Coues Country.

Mike

[ultramag]

I have been looking at the record books that i have.And the thing thats interesting is that most az mule deer come from the strip area.No surprise .but if you look at the coues.Anywhere in the state that has them.their are records some more than others.What i would like to see is a desert mule deer list. that would give you a good idea about that

[TREESTANDMAN]

Good point Rembrant. W/ coues, pretty much all units have 100 inch deer. There may be areas in units that generally harbor smaller bucks and vice versa due to pressure etc.

[coues addict]

I used to think it was Genetics and habitat also! Then I started pushing '' further in'' than I ever had in one particular unit and I started finding nice deer and sheds! I really agree with Rembrant, that there are trophy quality deer in most all units! I think the main limiting factor is our own weakness! Most hunters do not penetrate really very far from a trailhead or road. I think most guys"Myself included "are basically lazy! Not all but most! I backpack as far in as I can and rarely ever see another hunter! Deer, sense pressure and adjust accordingly. If we start getting further and further from trails and roads , I believe we will start tying into the "toads".The biggest problem a man has is carring water! Its a pain, so we have to either get in better shape or try and learn the intimacies of a particular area. I have been lucky in finding water all over the unit I like to hunt! It helps a lot, because I can pump it and keep on hunting! Four or five miles is quite a ways to us, but to a deer it ain`t sh_ t. I think most units are so big that we really only scratch the surface. I have also started investigating areas that don`t look real good and am finding out that sometimes they can be real sleepers! I didn`t mean to ramble on like this, but my vote goes to the human "wimp factor". I truly believe the deer are there, for the most part, its just up to us to find them!

Coues Addict

[couestaxi]

TREESTANDMAN - I would have to agree with genetics. Many mountain ranges have their own distinct shape and size to the basic antler growth pattern within each individual range. Second would be food for that year and the ability to grow to the 6-8 year old range.

 

A Grad student from NAU was doing a study on Coues Deer genetics and the deer's travel habits between sky islands in Southern Arizona along with how these travel patterns relate to genetic diversity. We saved DNA samples from all coues deer brought in for his study. I am not sure what the final outcome was if any.

 

One thing I have noticed after measuring hundreds of Coues deer bucks is that those living approximately North of the Phoenix area (North of the major "sky islands") tend to have a larger body weight than those from southern Arizona for mature bucks over 4 years old. Also, on average their heads tend to be 1/4" - 1/2" shorter from nose to eye and 1/4" wider through the tear ducts than those from southern AZ. I think this has to do more with genetics than anything else.

 

The same goes for Mexico. It seems most ranches have 1-3 basic genetic antler frameworks for the resident deer. Look at some of the photo's of the bucks taken off a ranch over the years. They do not change much but you might have 2-3 totally different traits present. Mass on adult deer is a very prevelent trait as well as spread.

Additionally AZGF (I believe) is doing a study on Coues deer movement patterns in the Payson Area with collared deer. It is my understanding (second hand) that the average coues deer in this area moves 7-8 miles between his non-rutting area and his rutting area in January. Very interesting!

 

Good luck and great huntin'

Greg