While we are on the subject (Mexican Coues)

[desertdog]

Well the last post here about Coues in South America got me thinking of a few stories I have heard about a "Mexican Whitetail" roaming around northern Mexico and southern Arizona. I have heard two different people, one from a friend that family has a ranch in the Chiricahua's from the late 1800's till now, and another from a friend in Douglas.

 

They both talk about a deer that is just like the Coues, but the body is just a little smaller and the bucks rack is just like a mini Coues rack. The best way to describe it would be 6 to 8 inches wide and the same tall.

 

I just find it interesting that two people from the same area that don't know each other (just have a mutual friend me) talk about the same deer running From the Chiricahua's to Douglas. And they both call it a Mexican Coues or whitetail. Cant remember.

 

Anyone else heard of them, or are these guys crazy.

 

DD

[COUESAZ]

You are right My family calls them rock deer because we used to see them in the boulder areas alot in unit 30B. Lots of guys have seen them with the little basket racks. I saw a full 4x4 that was no bigger than both my hand put together in the shape of a rack. Neat little deer. I would like to get a nice one mounted.

[Coach]

I've heard of them too - some people call them a Sonoran Fantail. A guy who used to work the ranch behind Jackson Butte (Pinky's) said they used to see them around the White Ledges, and that Pinky actually had some sheds and/or skulls. Interestingly, the smallest 3pt shed I have found was from that general area.

 

On the other hand, I was reading a book once (Deer of the Southwest, if memory serves) that basically said there was no such sub-species. It was just smaller bodied (young) coues with full, albeit smaller racks. The auther seemed to be very convinced of this after a lot of research.

 

Sure would be cool to actually get one, if they do exist.

[ruffcountry]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say those are probaly plain ole coues deer .

[Benbrown]

I heard about "Sonoran fantails" shortly after arriving in SW New Mexico 20 years ago. I am still waiting to actually see one in the wild, harvest one, or have someone bring me a carcass. I hunted a ranch south of Rodeo, NM, this year and (once again) was advised to be on the lookout for Sonoran fantails. Supposedly they are about 2/3 the size of a Coues deer, with a diminutive 6- or 8-point "basket" racks and a reddish wash on the top of the tail.

 

About 20-30% of the small whitetails that I have seen in the Animas Mountains and the Sierra San Luis do have this reddish wash on the upper surface of the tail, but the body sizes and antlers are typical of the normal range of age classes that one sees in Coues whitetails. My wife believes that they exist (based soley on reports from folks that she regards as reliable witnesses). I am still skeptical...

[cramerhunts]

I couldn't tell you if this is a fantail or just a small coues but a friend of mine took this buck about fifteen years ago down by Douglas. I can cover each beam with my hands and totally hide the horns. He calls it his "fantail" and says it was the smallest bodied deer that he has ever seen let alone taken.

 

 

 

Phil

[desertdog]

You are right My family calls them rock deer because we used to see them in the boulder areas alot in unit 30B. Lots of guys have seen them with the little basket racks. I saw a full 4x4 that was no bigger than both my hand put together in the shape of a rack. Neat little deer. I would like to get a nice one mounted.

 

That is so funny how you describe "both your hands put together". Both of the people I have talked to did the exacts same thing while describing them. I am not trying to make this up or nothing, just sharing what I have heard. And that is just the way people describe there racks. Always with there Hand's put together, just like a basket. The first time I heard of them I thought it was not true. But when the second guy told me about them it got me thinking. Just because they both described them the same way. I guess I would not be shocked if they were normal Coues. Just a little buck with a tight spread. I guess I would have to see one to understand.

DD

 

[billrquimby]

This has been discussed here before. Here is what I wrote in my book, "Sixty Years A Hunter," that Safari Press is publishing.

 

Bill Quimby

 

 

"A scientist will tell you it is impossible for two distinct races of the same species to exist for long in the same location. That's why I always was (and still am) skeptical about the stories I have heard about “Mexican or Sonoran fantail deer.”

 

"The fantail supposedly is a miniature race of whitetail that lives among our Coues deer in Arizona, New Mexico and Mexico. While I worked for the Tucson Citizen I saw several miniature adult whitetails in our city’s taxidermy shops. I even shot one myself in the Sierrita Mountains southwest of Tucson.

 

"The eight-inch wide antlers on my forty-pound buck had five points, counting eyeguards, on each side of its miniscule rack. A Game and Fish Department wildlife manager who checked its teeth said it was just over four years old, so it was a mature buck and not a juvenile.

 

"Carlos Gonzales Hermosillo, a hunting outfitter who operates in northern Mexico, is convinced fantails exist and offered to take me to an area in Mexico's Coues deer country where he said they are regularly taken. Unfortunately, I waited too long to take advantage of his invitation. I no longer can climb the steep, rocky mountains where Coues deer live.

 

"If the fantail is a mythical beast as I believe, then the only explanation for the half-sized Coues deer that a few hunters take in Arizona and Sonora every year is that they must be dwarfs, abnormal individuals that will never grow to the size of the average deer of their region.

 

"Problem is, dwarfism is supposed to be rare in wild populations of animals."

[desertdog]

This has been discussed here before. Here is what I wrote in my book, "Sixty Years A Hunter," that Safari Press is publishing.

 

Bill Quimby

 

 

"A scientist will tell you it is impossible for two distinct races of the same species to exist for long in the same location. That's why I always was (and still am) skeptical about the stories I have heard about “Mexican or Sonoran fantail deer.”

 

"The fantail supposedly is a miniature race of whitetail that lives among our Coues deer in Arizona, New Mexico and Mexico. While I worked for the Tucson Citizen I saw several miniature adult whitetails in our city’s taxidermy shops. I even shot one myself in the Sierrita Mountains southwest of Tucson.

 

"The eight-inch wide antlers on my forty-pound buck had five points, counting eyeguards, on each side of its miniscule rack. A Game and Fish Department wildlife manager who checked its teeth said it was just over four years old, so it was a mature buck and not a juvenile.

 

"Carlos Gonzales Hermosillo, a hunting outfitter who operates in northern Mexico, is convinced fantails exist and offered to take me to an area in Mexico's Coues deer country where he said they are regularly taken. Unfortunately, I waited too long to take advantage of his invitation. I no longer can climb the steep, rocky mountains where Coues deer live.

 

"If the fantail is a mythical beast as I believe, then the only explanation for the half-sized Coues deer that a few hunters take in Arizona and Sonora every year is that they must be dwarfs, abnormal individuals that will never grow to the size of the average deer of their region.

 

"Problem is, dwarfism is supposed to be rare in wild populations of animals."

 

Sounds like we have a midget, oh sorry "little deer" Monster Quest going thing here. Many people believe that there is such a deer. And others Like Bill and myself will take a wait and see attitude. Never hurts to talk it out and see what we all come up with on this topic.

 

It is very interesting to me, and I love to see the comments, and see that they are wide spread. Not just the reports of Douglas and Chiricauha's like I was hearing about. But all over the west. That is pretty cool.

 

Keep the comments and pics coming.

DD

 

[firstcoueswas80]

My family (moslty uncle) has always called them the Mexican Fantail deer.

 

IMO, they are nothing more than a YOUNG coues that has some great genes. Firest year buck with, with a nice tight 3x3 basket rack.

[SouthernCouesHunter]

I have to agree with firstcoueswas80. I have hunted the 35A/30B boundaries for the last 6 years during archery season and have seen at least 5 deer that match this description. It was apparent after watching them that they were very young deer with wonderful genes. I saw a 4 point (5 total points on each side) last January that was at least 3 inches inside each ear. He was cruising with other (bigger) Coues bucks in the area.

[IHunt2live]

I think Jim Heffelfinger mentions them in his book. Can't remember what it said but I highly doubt that science beleives they are another species.

[Browning'sCustomMeat]

I have heard the "Fantail" name thrown around quite a bit. My dad shot one back in the early 90's 4x5 great buck, just tiny. I'll if I can get a picture of it and post!

 

-Jeremy-

[second shot]

One of the guys I hunt with has a tiny 4x4 he took outside of Patagonia in the 1970's. The spread on this buck is about 4 inches. In think it's a young coues but he insists it's a fantail.

[willhunt4coues]

I have seen one here in the Pinal mountains. The one I saw his right or left antler could fit in my palm. He had many points. I had my bow and saw something bolt across the road so I went after it well I got over the hill and low and behold there he was. Instead of drawing back I was still trying to figure out how far away he was. He had to of only been 20 inches tall if even that. Of course I could not believe how beautiful this deer was. I can tell you I have seen a lot of coues deer and if it was a coues he would have been on the short bus. I have only told so many people about this because no one believes me but I do know what I saw. I do know they are out there.