A parting gift from the Bush Administration

[SilentButDeadly]

I just read a couple of articles that really got my hackles up.

 

For months now Republicans have been chanting 'Drill, Baby, Drill!!' --- and now the Bush administration in its final death throws is pushing through legislation to allow oil and gas drilling next to a couple of the crown jewels of the National Park Service, Arches and Canyonlands National Parks.

 

IMO these permits and the roads/infrastructure to be developed will not only put at risk NPS sites but will also seriously impact hunting in Utah and Colorado (and any other western state where they go up).

 

And BTW, the Feds have a history of using tax payer dollars to build these roads (often at taxpayer loss -- See Tongass NF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongass_National_Forest )

 

To me this is pure politics, not partisan, as a sportsman and conservationist I am at a loss to explain how my fellows can support this. The greatest threat to hunting is not global warming, gun control, environmentalists, or vegans, it is DEVELOPMENT!! The equation is pretty easy to understand, more people = less land for each of us to walk around on; the more you develop that land the less land to share with more people. Less land, more people the greater the outcry for 'protection', Public Forest land will become so valuable that it will be converted to National Monument, then to National Park.

 

I want to hear your perspectives.

 

Tyson

 

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008...-drilling-utah/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/opinion/...amp;oref=slogin

 

http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/prog/energy/oi...d_gas_faqs.html

 

[DesertBull]

Drill now, start building nuke, solar and wind power plants now, and start developing new energy sources NOW.

[tommat]

I will be so happy when the Bush administration is retired to Texas! Good Ridance.

[az4life]

Drill now, start building nuke, solar and wind power plants now, and start developing new energy sources NOW.

 

 

+1

[DesertBull]

Let's see, the NP are, rightfully so, protected, but now everything AROUND the park is to be off limits too. How far of a buffer zone? What about a buffer zone for the buffer zone? We could go on and on about this. The area around the parks is not protected and it is to be multiple use.

 

Everyone wants gas, oil, timber, etc, but no wants to cut down a tree or dig a hole to get it. How come we don't protest the Arabs drilling in the gulf, after all, we only have one earth and the water and air in the Persian Gulf is the same water that laps the shores of our beaches and we all breath the same air.

 

 

[bowsniper]

The greatest threat to hunting is not global warming, gun control, environmentalists, or vegans, it is DEVELOPMENT!!

 

 

You got that right! But many feel that the greatest threat to hunting is the environmentalists. Most (not all) environmentalists are neutral about hunting. Bunny huggers and enviros are usually not the same people. I think enviros are good for hunting because they usually focus on habitat preservation. That is what we as hunters should be worried about, habitat preservation. The less habitat, the less animals to hunt.

 

I have been hiking and canyoneering in Utah for the last 30 years. It's is truly God's country, there is nothing like it on earth. I'm sad to see Bush take a lame duck parting shot at it. Maybe President Hussein will do one thing right and reverse King George.

 

Mark

[SilentButDeadly]

DB - Multiple use is what USFS does with its land and renewable resources; Non-renewable resources are different, BLM is managing for the greatest good of the American people (not the recreationalists, hunters, etc who use the land). That means that hunting can be negatively impacted and its too bad for us -- the rest of America needs their oil and gas more than we need to hunt!

 

As far as multiple-use goes the only reason permits go unused for forests that have timber, or some other extractable, is that it isn't cost-effective to try and manage a business that way. Shoot, if you could figure out how to use small diameter timber you'd be a multi-millionaire for all the dog-hair the USFS has growing all over the State's ponderosa forests...

 

There are places that have $$$ extractables (like the proposed Rosemont Mine outside of Tucson). But the reality is that they will destroy (for decades to centuries) the deer hunting on that side of the range with their open pit mine... Not to mention the benefits of the mine will be going to another country. What is more valuable to society: a few hundred local labor jobs for a couple (2-3) decades, or a 'worthless' hillside covered in blue oaks, grama grasses, and a couple ghost deer?? IMO the deer are == you can manage the deer for an infinite amount of time so they are worth an infinite amount of $$, the mine is finite and will go dry eventually.

 

If you take the position that we have to do the greatest good for society, i.e. open everything up to oil/gas/coal/uranium exploration you will get what you need (for now), but what about the 2x American population in 30-50 years who want what you had? How do you explain to tomorrow's children that you had to destroy their opportunity to experience the hunt so that we could pay for cheap gas and oil today?

 

Why is it that we are licensing these areas to exploration before we've passed a single law to increase the minimum MPG rating? Have we passed any new renewable energy plans lately? Made any effort as a federal goverment (other than Picken's Plan http://www.pickensplan.com/act/ ), to institute a systematic change?

 

Its like saying, let's drink that last 30 pack of beer in our fridge before we go start AA tomorrow!

 

It does strike me as unethical that they (BLM) are trying to do this without the comment of another part of their own agency (NPS).

 

Tyson

 

[DesertBull]

I agree about the strip mining, but is there any evidence that gas wells kill all of the deer?

 

BTW, the Pickens plan calls for cars to be converted to NG. Where do we get the gas if we don't drill?

 

People said all of the Caribou would be gone in Alaska when the pipeline was being debated. Didn't happen. In fact, the haul road is a favorite destination for DIY hunters now.

 

Still, the point is, the park acreage is protected, the surrounding area is not.

[SilentButDeadly]

Its the idea of a 'fire sale' on the permits that has me upset; I'm certain that a NEPA analysis has gone into this (which means that it likely won't affect the park directly). The Feds have a history of quickly unloading public land to developers if it is in the Politician's interests (Gail Norton former Secretary of the Interior is now a VP of Shell Oil?? I'd call that a red flag!)

 

I'm taking a Natural Resource Economics class right now that is going over the history of the Tongass NF; that place got F@$%ed! They fire sold some of the oldest most productive temperate rainforest in Alaska for chump change (actually for the price of a cheeseburger = $2 = 1 thousand year old Sitka spruce). As a result the blacktail population crashed, the hillsides sluffed off, and the salmon streams were destroyed.

 

The risk is that Utah and Color Country are at stake this time, not some remote island forest in the North Pacific.

 

Thanks for keeping up the discussion.

 

T

 

I agree about the strip mining, but is there any evidence that gas wells kill all of the deer?

 

BTW, the Pickens plan calls for cars to be converted to NG. Where do we get the gas if we don't drill?

 

People said all of the Caribou would be gone in Alaska when the pipeline was being debated. Didn't happen. In fact, the haul road is a favorite destination for DIY hunters now.

 

Still, the point is, the park acreage is protected, the surrounding area is not.

[DesertBull]

If you think that is bad, you should see what the Native Americans in the Tongass did.

[SilentButDeadly]

I know, they were the worst, and they bankrupted themselves through poor business management...

 

If you think that is bad, you should see what the Native Americans in the Tongass did.

 

[IHunt2live]

On the mountain range I worked on up in central utah they did some oil and gas exploration between the two years I was there. The second summer I show up and there were several dosens of these 15 feet trails they cut out of the aspen stands, and mashed all the sagebrush, that extened for MILES.

Whats scary about that situation is that it was state/private land that owners, including the state, would love to sell seing the price they could get out of it. It would destroy not only the deer and elk wintering ground but also destroy habitat for the threatened sage grouse and endagered utah prairie dogs.

These type of situations are hard. I agree that our natio should become more energy independent but what also makes our nation so great is our open/wild places and I hope we can keep it that way.

Would we all feel a little different about the whole thing if it was going on in our back yard, the mine is and a lot of us don't like the idea, but what if a natural gas company open operations in our your hunting spot and closes access.

Just some of my thoughts.

[SilentButDeadly]

did you get any photos?

 

picture = 1k words

 

anybody got photos of the new kinder-morgan pipeline here in AZ? Looks like its over a 100 yard wide... they did cursory repair job, moved a bunch of rocks into the middle of it. reminded me of an Ed Abbey quote: ""Of course I litter the public highway. Every chance I get. After all, it's not the beer cans that are ugly; it's the highway that is ugly."

 

On the mountain range I worked on up in central utah they did some oil and gas exploration between the two years I was there. The second summer I show up and there were several dosens of these 15 feet trails they cut out of the aspen stands, and mashed all the sagebrush, that extened for MILES.

Whats scary about that situation is that it was state/private land that owners, including the state, would love to sell seing the price they could get out of it. It would destroy not only the deer and elk wintering ground but also destroy habitat for the threatened sage grouse and endagered utah prairie dogs.

These type of situations are hard. I agree that our natio should become more energy independent but what also makes our nation so great is our open/wild places and I hope we can keep it that way.

Would we all feel a little different about the whole thing if it was going on in our back yard, the mine is and a lot of us don't like the idea, but what if a natural gas company open operations in our your hunting spot and closes access.

Just some of my thoughts.

 

[IHunt2live]

Sorry Tyson no pics.

 

You can see some of the impacts on Google earth. Go to 380 15’53.06” N 1110 53’24.11” W. Some are roads but the straight lines heading east from here are the cuts.

I think these pics were taken in the middle of the project, not sure. I’m sure some of them are worse now because the never tried to block the cuts and I bet tons people drive on them. They were sure major eye sores in some beautiful country.

 

[DesertBull]

I know, they were the worst, and they bankrupted themselves through poor business management...

 

If you think that is bad, you should see what the Native Americans in the Tongass did.

 

Yeah, they sold out to the Japanese for a fraction of what they could have got if they had had waited.

 

There is not a tree left standing on their land.