Trail Camera Question

[Sneaker]

2 hours ago, creed_az_88 said:

"which states that a person shall not use a trail camera for the purposes of taking or locating or aiding in the take of wildlife, becomes effective Jan. 1, 2022."

 

This is the rule. What you are trying to do is completely legal as far as I can tell. The rule says nothing about unit boundaries, or a timeframe or anything like that. So just don't shoot a buck you have a picture of and you're good. And don't set a camera out with the intent of finding a deer to shoot. If your intent is only to take pictures of random animals with your kids, have at it. I respect the game and fish's ruling on this, but it's a shame that they wrote the rule in a way that makes regular citizens feel like they may become criminals for simply just setting out a harmless trail camera with their kids. Trail cameras are only illegal if you intend to hunt what you get pictures of. Don't let anybody tell you any different. 

You say "don't shoot a buck you have a picture of", well I dont think thats enough. By setting out cameras this year, you could identify a watering hole that is very popular a certain time of year, come back a couple years later and kill on that water. I don't feel that is allowed as it is using the camera info to aid your hunting. Same with putting camera on a water that has nothing on it, you decide, because of that info to NOT hunt that water in a couple years. That as well I feel is cheating since you are using the camera info to make your hunting decisions. Even if you say don't shoot bucks you have pictures of, well I have shot a 9 year old tooth aged mule deer buck in Arizona, elk can live even longer frequetnly, so you are black balling yourself in that area for a long time if you take that literally as well.

[HuntHarder]

 

 

Emailed response from AGFD I received:

thank you for your questions. While there are endless what-if scenarios that can be generated about cameras and the new rule I will answer your question this way.

 

The new rule states:

R12-4-303.5: A person shall not place, maintain or use a trail camera or images, video, or location, time or date data from a trail camera, for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife, or locating wildlife for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife.

 

So for the purposes of your questions, any photograph and/or data captured by a trail camera after January 1, 2022 and used for the take or aiding in the take of wildlife will be unlawful, even if that was not the initial intended use of the trail camera. This data is not limited to a photograph of a specific animal, all knowledge gained by the use of the camera will be unlawful as well. There is no time limit on that knowledge, if it is gained after January 1, 2022, it is unlawful.

 

 

 

Gene Elms | LAW ENFORCEMENT BRANCH CHIEF

ARIZONA GAME AND FISH DEPARTMENT

OFFICE: 623.236.7307

MOBILE: 623.694.5044

EMAIL: gelms@azgfd.gov

azgfd.gov | 5000 W. Carefree Highway, Phoenix, AZ 85086

 

Join our new Conservation Membership program and ensure a wildlife legacy for the future. 

[Couzer]

17 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

When I emailed the Agfd, the Chief Leo responded and said any and all info gathered by a trail camera is considered info gained to aid in the take of.  He said you do not have to have a picture of the animal shot in order to be in violation.  I will see if I can find the email, it was probably 6 months ago.  The way I interpreted his response was,  knowing there are no animals there is the same thing as knowing there is animals there.  So, having a picture of an animal is not required imo.  Email them and see what response you get.  I am sure they have gotten this question a TON and they have a response they send to everyone.

 

Emailed response:

thank you for your questions. While there are endless what-if scenarios that can be generated about cameras and the new rule I will answer your question this way.

 

The new rule states:

R12-4-303.5: A person shall not place, maintain or use a trail camera or images, video, or location, time or date data from a trail camera, for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife, or locating wildlife for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife.

 

So for the purposes of your questions, any photograph and/or data captured by a trail camera after January 1, 2022 and used for the take or aiding in the take of wildlife will be unlawful, even if that was not the initial intended use of the trail camera. This data is not limited to a photograph of a specific animal, all knowledge gained by the use of the camera will be unlawful as well. There is no time limit on that knowledge, if it is gained after January 1, 2022, it is unlawful.

 

 

 

Gene Elms | LAW ENFORCEMENT BRANCH CHIEF

ARIZONA GAME AND FISH DEPARTMENT

OFFICE: 623.236.7307

MOBILE: 623.694.5044

EMAIL: gelms@azgfd.gov

azgfd.gov | 5000 W. Carefree Highway, Phoenix, AZ 85086

 

Join our new Conservation Membership program and ensure a wildlife legacy for the future. 

Thanks for the information! Looks like there is no time associated with his response. That being said sounds like a lifetime ban for that area. Again appreciate the response

[Sneaker]

47 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

 

 

Emailed response from AGFD I received:

thank you for your questions. While there are endless what-if scenarios that can be generated about cameras and the new rule I will answer your question this way.

 

The new rule states:

R12-4-303.5: A person shall not place, maintain or use a trail camera or images, video, or location, time or date data from a trail camera, for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife, or locating wildlife for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife.

 

So for the purposes of your questions, any photograph and/or data captured by a trail camera after January 1, 2022 and used for the take or aiding in the take of wildlife will be unlawful, even if that was not the initial intended use of the trail camera. This data is not limited to a photograph of a specific animal, all knowledge gained by the use of the camera will be unlawful as well. There is no time limit on that knowledge, if it is gained after January 1, 2022, it is unlawful.

 

 

 

Gene Elms | LAW ENFORCEMENT BRANCH CHIEF

ARIZONA GAME AND FISH DEPARTMENT

OFFICE: 623.236.7307

MOBILE: 623.694.5044

EMAIL: gelms@azgfd.gov

azgfd.gov | 5000 W. Carefree Highway, Phoenix, AZ 85086

 

Join our new Conservation Membership program and ensure a wildlife legacy for the future. 

Yep, they really went about as nuclear as you can without saying "no cameras in the woods". There really are a ton of what-ifs, and ANY kind of knowledge for ANY kind of hunting decisions FOREVER pretty much makes it so you can not hunt that "area", now someone define "area" lol.

[HuntHarder]

4 minutes ago, Sneaker said:

Yep, they really went about as nuclear as you can without saying "no cameras in the woods". There really are a ton of what-ifs, and ANY kind of knowledge for ANY kind of hunting decisions FOREVER pretty much makes it so you can not hunt that "area", now someone define "area" lol.

You don't even need to hunt the area your camera is in to be in violation.  Knowing what's in or isn't in another unit/ area is considered knowledge gained.  Most will just quit using cameras, some will continue to do so.  

[bigorange]

This totally reinforces how unenforceable this will be…

[HuntHarder]

9 minutes ago, bigorange said:

This totally reinforces how unenforceable this will be…

It will be interesting to see the first few cases adjudicated.  I just wish that all the unenforceable people would put their $$$ where their mouth is and go about it blatantly.  I know the major offenders have changed their online presence for sure.  I think Josiah will pay for your legal costs too or something to that effect he said.  

[trphyhntr]

37 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

It will be interesting to see the first few cases adjudicated.  I just wish that all the unenforceable people would put their $$$ where their mouth is and go about it blatantly.  I know the major offenders have changed their online presence for sure.  I think Josiah will pay for your legal costs too or something to that effect he said.  

Don’t think anyone would blatantly ask for trouble. Catch them if they can, then prosecute to a guilty verdict. Now that would be interesting 

[HuntHarder]

34 minutes ago, trphyhntr said:

Don’t think anyone would blatantly ask for trouble. Catch them if they can, then prosecute to a guilty verdict. Now that would be interesting 

I don't think so either.  No doubt enforcement of this is gonna be tough unless someone is blatant about it.  I am not sure that game and fish would even pursue a nobody either.  I am thinking if anyone gets busted, it's gonna be a big boy in the hunting world or an additional charge on top of others. 

[creed_az_88]

13 hours ago, Sneaker said:

You say "don't shoot a buck you have a picture of", well I dont think thats enough. By setting out cameras this year, you could identify a watering hole that is very popular a certain time of year, come back a couple years later and kill on that water. I don't feel that is allowed as it is using the camera info to aid your hunting. Same with putting camera on a water that has nothing on it, you decide, because of that info to NOT hunt that water in a couple years. That as well I feel is cheating since you are using the camera info to make your hunting decisions. Even if you say don't shoot bucks you have pictures of, well I have shot a 9 year old tooth aged mule deer buck in Arizona, elk can live even longer frequetnly, so you are black balling yourself in that area for a long time if you take that literally as well.

It's very simple to me....don't use a camera to locate animals you intend to harvest, and dont harvest animals you located with a camera.  The guy just wants to set a camera out with his kids for god's sake. Cameras are not illegal to use. The commissioners made that very clear on the blood origins podcast which I assume most people here did not listen to. You just can't use them to locate animals and then hunt those animals. You can knit pick the rule all you want. Interpret it how you'd like, but based on how the rule is written, you can use a camera legally for anything you please except for collecting information that will aid you in a hunt or harvest.  It doesn't change the rule or the way the rule was written. If you weren't allowed to have a camera out in the same unit you were hunting, the rule would state that. The rule is vague. Very vague. But it is also clear at the same time. Use a camera with your kids Vowell. Just don't set the camera out with the intent to get pictures of animals you intend to hunt. And don't hunt any animals you happen to get on camera even if you did not intend to get that animal on camera. It's literally that simple. And if you don't want to risk it and would prefer not to put cameras out at all, then that's fine too. But it's your loss IMO. 

[Couzer]

3 hours ago, creed_az_88 said:

It's very simple to me....don't use a camera to locate animals you intend to harvest, and dont harvest animals you located with a camera.  The guy just wants to set a camera out with his kids for god's sake. Cameras are not illegal to use. The commissioners made that very clear on the blood origins podcast which I assume most people here did not listen to. You just can't use them to locate animals and then hunt those animals. You can knit pick the rule all you want. Interpret it how you'd like, but based on how the rule is written, you can use a camera legally for anything you please except for collecting information that will aid you in a hunt or harvest.  It doesn't change the rule or the way the rule was written. If you weren't allowed to have a camera out in the same unit you were hunting, the rule would state that. The rule is vague. Very vague. But it is also clear at the same time. Use a camera with your kids Vowell. Just don't set the camera out with the intent to get pictures of animals you intend to hunt. And don't hunt any animals you happen to get on camera even if you did not intend to get that animal on camera. It's literally that simple. And if you don't want to risk it and would prefer not to put cameras out at all, then that's fine too. But it's your loss IMO. 

Agreed, I just didn’t know if there was a length time associated with the law. But I see nothing like you stated Creed. Thanks for the clarification. 

[JSR]

Don't show anyone but your family the pictures and there won't be an issue.

Lets just face it.....the rule was put in place knowing that 95% of the people will comply and they will just live with the 5% that don't or count on some Karen to turn them in. They are not going to spend money going out and looking for cameras. 

 

 

[trphyhntr]

8 hours ago, creed_az_88 said:

It's very simple to me....don't use a camera to locate animals you intend to harvest, and dont harvest animals you located with a camera.  The guy just wants to set a camera out with his kids for god's sake. Cameras are not illegal to use. The commissioners made that very clear on the blood origins podcast which I assume most people here did not listen to. You just can't use them to locate animals and then hunt those animals. You can knit pick the rule all you want. Interpret it how you'd like, but based on how the rule is written, you can use a camera legally for anything you please except for collecting information that will aid you in a hunt or harvest.  It doesn't change the rule or the way the rule was written. If you weren't allowed to have a camera out in the same unit you were hunting, the rule would state that. The rule is vague. Very vague. But it is also clear at the same time. Use a camera with your kids Vowell. Just don't set the camera out with the intent to get pictures of animals you intend to hunt. And don't hunt any animals you happen to get on camera even if you did not intend to get that animal on camera. It's literally that simple. And if you don't want to risk it and would prefer not to put cameras out at all, then that's fine too. But it's your loss IMO. 

I don’t think it’s that easy, unfortunately. One example, If a guy used a cam in a random unit sees the deer are hitting water often, guy sits water in his unit and kills. He just used a camera to help kill a buck and never photo’d anything in his unit. 

[Sneaker]

12 hours ago, creed_az_88 said:

It's very simple to me....don't use a camera to locate animals you intend to harvest, and dont harvest animals you located with a camera.  The guy just wants to set a camera out with his kids for god's sake. Cameras are not illegal to use. The commissioners made that very clear on the blood origins podcast which I assume most people here did not listen to. You just can't use them to locate animals and then hunt those animals. You can knit pick the rule all you want. Interpret it how you'd like, but based on how the rule is written, you can use a camera legally for anything you please except for collecting information that will aid you in a hunt or harvest.  It doesn't change the rule or the way the rule was written. If you weren't allowed to have a camera out in the same unit you were hunting, the rule would state that. The rule is vague. Very vague. But it is also clear at the same time. Use a camera with your kids Vowell. Just don't set the camera out with the intent to get pictures of animals you intend to hunt. And don't hunt any animals you happen to get on camera even if you did not intend to get that animal on camera. It's literally that simple. And if you don't want to risk it and would prefer not to put cameras out at all, then that's fine too. But it's your loss IMO. 

I wish it were that simple but it is not, the wording of the rule and the G&F's own email goes way way beyond whether or not you "intend" to hunt around there or not. It is wrong to say "You just can't use them to locate animals and then hunt those animals". Thats just the blatant beginning. They say literally "This data is not limited to a photograph of a specific animal, all knowledge gained by the use of the camera will be unlawful, that is such a huge superlative, it could easily be argued that ANY using of a trail camera would make it IMPOSSIBLE to not have gained some knowledge then that would benefit the camera owner if he were then to hunt ever after. EVERYTHING the cam does and doesn't show is info that is impossible for a cam owner/future hunter to ignore and not utilize as a hunter. You then have an unfair leg up on anyone that didn't run a camera, which essentially makes it so that you can't use cameras and hunt anywhere that the info would be beneficial in any way. I don't like it but thats how they are interpreting it and maybe(probably not) going to enforce it.

[creed_az_88]

8 hours ago, trphyhntr said:

I don’t think it’s that easy, unfortunately. One example, If a guy used a cam in a random unit sees the deer are hitting water often, guy sits water in his unit and kills. He just used a camera to help kill a buck and never photo’d anything in his unit. 

Not sure I follow on this example.