Attention: Sierra Vista and Hereford Members

[forepaw]

The topic refers to S.V. and Hereford, but all members interested in accessing and using the Sierra Vista - AZGFD shooting range are included.  As some of you know, the Sierra Vista shooting range has been characterized by dissension and dysfunction for a number of years.  Sierra Vista is a small town, and pretty soon the word gets around, and those of us who are shooters/competitiors/handloaders/predator callers figure out the challenging conditions (I am not talking about wind or mirage) when attempting to test a new load, zero a rifle, practice from field positions or etc.  At the Sierra Vista range, you can expect mixed results on any given day.  Given the limitations on safe places to shoot on public land, and the 100 mile drive to the Three Points range, the Sierra Vista range is the only game in town.

There will be a meeting this coming Wednesday, March 9, at 7:00 p.m. at the VFW in Sierra Vista to provide input with respect to the future operation and management of the range.  At issue is whether or not to combine the current fragmented organization (Cochise Gun Club, Sierra Vista Rod and Gun Club, and Montezuma Muzzleloaders) under the umbrella of the Sierra Vista R&G Club.  All club members are invited to attend and provide input and opinions as to the future of public shooting in the local commuting area.  If you like to hunt and shoot, and are not a shooting range member, maybe you should be!  And this meeting could provide an opportunity  to become one, and to educate yourself as to how the shooting community might provide guidance to allow this struggling shooting range to move forward.  If you have some time and energy and interest in promoting shooting sports and especially in passing on your knowledge to the next generation (or the current generation who may be new to shooting and firearms) please consider attending and sharing some of that experience and expertise.

 

[zackcarp]

I won't be able to attend tge meeting unfortunately. I am also not a member of any of the clubs, which I probably should be. I just pay my fee each time.

 My experience at the range has been mostly good. Most Range masters conduct them selves well enough as do most shooters, at least while I'm there. When I take my kids or my wife, everyone is very helpful and excited to teach them range safety and proper shooting techniques. 

My only complaint, is I wish they would open up more lanes for shooting. I understand that finding Range Officers with time to sit at the range is tough. But I'm usually always trying to develop a load. And waiting on everyone else is a bummer. I also like to take by big gun there that has a big brake. I always feel bad when the tables fill up and someone has to shoot next to me. I usually put it away.

I have not been to the range in over a year and I have found some where else to shoot. Just due to convenience of not having others around. 

I do hope the meeting goes well and you all get a large turn out with lots of responses. It might be wise to put it out on chit chat sierra vista Facebook page.

[Kavika1991]

I missed this by a few days, as usual. I don’t use social media outside of Instagram and I use that rarely, so I’m normally behind the info power curve. That’s a me problem I know 😅.

I’ve visited the SV range once. I didn’t enjoy the experience. My impression was that it’s run like a military range, and that drains the joy out of it for me. The facilities look great, the targets and distances are excellent and the structural set up is modern…but it felt like I was stepping back in time 20 years in respect to the vibe of the place. I know I only visited once, but that one time made such a strong impression on me that I haven’t been compelled to return.

Now that Ive aired criticisms, I’m not opposed to volunteering to help with any daily operations or even do range maintenance during off times. I just don’t know how to go about doing that. I don’t know many folks in the community. I moved here under a year ago and was surprised by the absence of thriving 2G, 3G community, youth marksmanship clubs or a 22lr competition every other month in my new hometown. 

[forepaw]

Hey Kavika1991.  Welcome to the forum.  Understand that your instincts regarding the SV range are right on the money.  I too moved here recently from a community with a shooting club filled with dedicated, knowledgeable shooters, with high morale, competent officers, and multiple disciplines.  Thank God, I am still a member, as membership is capped, and there is a waiting list to get in!  This is in stark contrast to the SV range.  I almost don't know where to begin, as the topic is one of considerable exasperation for me.  Part of the problem is with the club leadership.  They are old, tired and paranoid.  They spend too much time bickering and squabbling, and, with the exception of the trap and skeet range, are out of touch with the needs of the shooting community.  They are predominantly represented by (and cater to)  ex-military and ex-law enforcement people.  Now I have friends in both groups, and there are great people to be found in both.  But some tend to exhibit an extreme authoritarian mindset.   To make matters worse, shooting range leadership is basically comprised of a cabal of petty tyrants, who are authoritarian-directed, and who do not appear to exhibit any knowledge or enthusiasm for competitive shooting, marksmanship training, or allowing experienced shooters to come out, set up, wring out their load or their rifle and be left alone.  Rather, they, and some (not all) of the so-called RSOs start barking orders at you almost from the minute you step out of your vehicle.  Then, they breathe down your neck the whole time you are conducting your shooting, chronographing, note-taking, target evaluation or whatever.  Some are not too bad, but many are borderline intolerable.  As you know, there is nothing more offensive than being treated like a 6-year old, and ordered around, and talked down to when you are minding your own business and trying to get your shooting done.  If you show aggravation and become short with the RSO wannabe, they can kick you off the range, and mandate your attendance at a meeting of club officers where you will have to defend yourself in their kangaroo-court, to see if you can keep your membership.  Wow. 

Additionally, the local shooting community for years has failed to stand up, resist the status quo, vote out the tyrants, and give the shooting range a chance to be run like other ranges and clubs.  In fact, I doubt if most local shooters have any idea what other clubs are like.  I see them all time time, shooting magazine after magazine out of a short-barrel AR, raising puffs of dust around a gong the size of a car window, and if they make an occasional lucky hit, they know they are a dead-eye.  Whooo-hoooo.  This is not marksmanship.  It is nothing but turning money into noise.  Meanwhile, your face is smarting from their muzzle blast, your ears are ringing, and you flick their brass out of your pocket and off your bench.

The SV range is not, and will never be, a world class range.  But it is certainly a good range, and could be much better with the right people involved.  

Another part of the problem is the land is owned by AZGFD, and leased to the consortium of clubs.  Part of the range is on state land, and part (impact areas) is on BLM land.  This generates confusion and more petty bickering, and I believe is part of the basis for the paranoia of the club leadership (due to friction with AZGFD) and is the reason most of the range is shut down most of the time.  Even when open, they insist on jamming everyone on Range #4 cheek by jowl, and then wasting most of your time with cease fires and silly checking of every single firearm, magazine etc.  If you touch anything on your bench during a cease fire, you will likely get chewed out, and possibly thrown off the range.  Good grief.  In the meantime, multiple ranges sit unused.  Just Crazy.  AZGFD is a big wet blanket on enjoyable shooting, and if it could be done, title to the state-owned land should be signed over to the city of Sierra Vista, and leased back to the club, in 10 year increments.   A 99 year lease would be better, as it would allow for capital investment.  The BLM should be petitioned to classify the impact area as "Highest and Best" use of the land.  This doesn't mean it could not be still available for grazing etc.  - of course it could - it  would just codify that the predominant use would be recognized as a projectile impact area.   

Another major problem is, there are no young, energetic shooters who want to step up and become candidates for officer positions.  Rather the local mindset is very similar to the experience described by zackcarp.  Now I don't know zackcarp personally, but everything I have heard and read indicates to me that he is a first-rate, stand-up guy, and I look forward to meeting him one of these days.  However, avoiding the range and going to find a place on public land for long-range, or even short range shooting, is not an answer.  For one, it is a public range, and we should be entitled to use it.  We shouldn't have to burn fuel and rubber, and drive miles out of town to shoot.  There is a ton of state trust land close by, but you cannot legally target shoot on it.  That leaves USFS and BLM, and that is only going to be available until some hiker, birdwatcher, rockhound or horseback rider complains about gunfire where they are recreating, and then look for restrictions and potential closure - just like Hunter and Ash Canyons a few years ago.

There are a couple of other unfortunate side effects of wildcat public lands shooting.  For one, we could all become concentrated on the best places to shoot, and sooner or later, there will be a safety issue, or words exchanged, which sours the experience for everyone.  For another, while you, me and zackcarp are out shooting on public land, we are not available on the local range to help mentor a youngster, or assist an adult new shooter with some basic instruction and safety info.  With the prevailing political and economic climate, there are a LOT of new gun owners.  Many are desperate for some quality instruction, but unless they get it from youtube, it is not going to be available locally.  The SV range leadership provides no training, does not communicate, does no outreach, does no solicitation for volunteers, no announcements for workdays.  They don't even circulate a newsletter.  They don't answer e-mails.  They are the shooting club equivalent of the hermit kingdom, N. Korea.

Sorry for the long read, but us SV folks have a lot of work to do if we are ever going to improve the public shooting situation.   

 

 

  

[bigorange]

I was hoping the follow-up post would include some (any?) outcome from the meeting...did the meeting happen and was there any outcome? Sorry to read the description of how things have gone and are going, but hopefully something positive can come of it.

[forepaw]

44 minutes ago, bigorange said:

I was hoping the follow-up post would include some (any?) outcome from the meeting...did the meeting happen and was there any outcome? Sorry to read the description of how things have gone and are going, but hopefully something positive can come of it.

The club only had the meeting room for an hour, so with all the minutes and motions, and going over the finances, there were only three topics of discussion.  One was the debate regarding combining the three clubs into a single entity, and one was whether or not to continue the varmint silhouette match activity.

Basically, the preliminary consensus/preference was to continue with the consortium of multiple clubs.  It would seem that having all the matches and activities under the umbrella of a single club would make more sense logistically and organizationally, but there was no strong preference one way or the other.  I think it will remain as a consortium because that is what they are comfortable with and the way they have run the club for years.  I expect there will be a formal determination on this.  The overall direction of debate seemed to lack focus.

With respect to the varmint silhouette activity, it appears the club has the money to conduct the target repairs, and seemed to lean in the direction of allocating money to that purpose.  The problem is, they are reluctant to expend revenue when there has been so little participation in the match.  There were something like 18 shooters in 2020, 12 in 2021, and none so far in 2022 (I showed up on two occasions to shoot the match, but the match director and others were no-shows).  With the low turnout, and the match only being held every other month, and lack of volunteers for workdays, it appears this event will likely be terminated.  However, the motion was made and seconded to table the issue until the next club meeting when the match director would be available to offer his opinion and position.  I have asked over the past few months what the status was, and could not get any real answer from anyone, other than repairs were needed and workers were not available.  I did not at any time, receive a call or e-mail with notification of a target repair or other work activity.  I did get notified of a muzzleloader target repair workday, which I helped with.

The third topic was regarding the lack of candidates and member/volunteer support to to staff pending officer vacancies.  The current president of the Cochise Gun Club is stepping down, and it appears another officer will fill that role.  There have been informal comments from members  willing to step into other positions - tentatively, the treasurer will be resigning.  The secretary does not appear to be a permanent or confirmed position, so it is up in the air, or at least that was my impression.  This is for the Cochise Gun Club only - I am not aware of status of officer positions in the other two clubs.

I expected more in the way of an in-depth presentation, but this seemed to be more of a survey type meeting to gauge member preferences, with final decisions to come later. 

 

[Kavika1991]

That is all very unfortunate. 

If money is required to repair targets, who do I talk to in order to sponsor a lane? What lane sponsorship programs exist with the clubs? 

Does one have to join one of the shooting clubs to help out? 
 

[zackcarp]

Thanks foresaw for bring this all to light. Looks like I'll have to join one of the clubs sooner rather than later. And you are right, I never see any heads up or advertising of events or needed repairs. It would be nice if they did a better job on that end.

[forepaw]

2 hours ago, zackcarp said:

Thanks foresaw for bring this all to light. Looks like I'll have to join one of the clubs sooner rather than later. And you are right, I never see any heads up or advertising of events or needed repairs. It would be nice if they did a better job on that end.

Sure thing.  Thanks for considering getting involved and getting things moving in the right direction.  It is sorely needed.  Anything will help.  Just a new, friendly face will be more welcome than you know!  There are some good people at the club, and possibly you will find one of he matches that fit your interests and schedule.   Hunter volunteers can sometimes have the most positive effect, as AZGFD tends to listen to us a little more than just a concerned citizen.  Not as much as the critter groups, but any voice is better than none.

[forepaw]

12 hours ago, Kavika1991 said:

That is all very unfortunate. 

If money is required to repair targets, who do I talk to in order to sponsor a lane? What lane sponsorship programs exist with the clubs? 

Does one have to join one of the shooting clubs to help out? 
 

Yeah.  Wish I had more positive news.  But maybe we are at the point where things will start to finally turn around.  You don't need to join to help out, but there is not a good way, at least to my knowledge, to partially  sponsor a match or program.   The club is far from rich, but I think they have enough to do what needs to be done.  The primary need is for physical participation, and challenging the existing (flawed) business models (respectfully of course), both within the club, and at AZGFD.  I am afraid AZGFD is out of step with the current needs and interests of the shooting community, and that may be one reason you felt like everything you're seeing is 20 years behind the times.  It absolutely is.  Maybe 30 years.

You mentioned 2G and 3G.  There was at one time a very popular 3G match at the club, but participants and the match director got crossways with the club president, and he banned them from the range.  They had to reorganize and re-open the match at the Douglas range, an hour drive from SV.  This was all driven by personality conflict, and maybe some jealousy, I am sorry to say, as the 3G was an ever growing and well-attended match.  The match director for 3G is Howard Mangum, and his # is 5 two 0 - 2 five 5 - six 2 zero 6.  3G is his enthusiastic specialty, and you would be more than welcome to shoot with that match.  It is not my game, but I understand the popularity and support it any way I can.  There is also a group of defensive pistol shooters with workshop at the SV range the 4th Sat. of the month, and match held the 1st Sat.  Those are pretty fun matches, and you would also be welcome there if you are a pistol shooter, or would like to become one.  The next will be Mar. 26 on range 3, with set up beginning about 0830.

For awhile we had forum members getting together for coffee and chatter, and maybe we can re-group and get that going again.  As a new arrival, that would give you a chance to match up names and faces.  Possibly some of the others will chime in and see if we can sync up our schedules and meet FTF within the near future.

Hang in there.  The range and clubs could really use some new blood and ideas right now

.

[Kavika1991]

Well, for my part, I would be tickled pink to meet some 2A folks. The majority of folks I’ve met since I moved here have to do with motorcycles.  😂

Ill give the POC a call. I don’t mind getting involved. I’m fully retired and well versed an many shooting disciplines and events. Im in my 40s but speak oldman and whippersnapper/ NRA and GOA fluently.😃 

Im still in shock that someone came down the line checking riffles to make sure the weapons were cleared and set to safe. Is that some kind of requirement? A condition imposed by the arrangement between the controlling parties? 🙄

[forepaw]

11 hours ago, Kavika1991 said:

Well, for my part, I would be tickled pink to meet some 2A folks. The majority of folks I’ve met since I moved here have to do with motorcycles.  😂

Ill give the POC a call. I don’t mind getting involved. I’m fully retired and well versed an many shooting disciplines and events. Im in my 40s but speak oldman and whippersnapper/ NRA and GOA fluently.😃 

Im still in shock that someone came down the line checking riffles to make sure the weapons were cleared and set to safe. Is that some kind of requirement? A condition imposed by the arrangement between the controlling parties? 🙄

All good.  The SVSR needs folks like you!  Just don't expect to see many changes right out of the gate.  They have been running it this way for a long time, and I honestly don't think they realize there are other ways to run a range that are just as safe, without imposing a draconian atmosphere and taking the fun out of everything.  By the way, I believe the Douglas range also sponsors 2G, but my info is pretty dated.  Howard M. is a master-class shooter and can fill in the gaps.