World Record Bull

[.270]

i don't think anybody says it was behind a fence. but there a lotta rumors that it was released or escaped, whatever, from a farm, prior. there are plenty of ways to either prove or dispell the rumors, if anyone should decide to want to do it. the biggest problem folks have with this is the fiasco that surrounded the entire deal. Lark.

[Rembrant]

People keep thinking that I am accusing an individual or guide company of doing something wrong. I am not. (Anybody can dart a bull on public land and hope for the best).

And I don’t give a rats butt if a successful person spends his money on a hunt.

I am only asking if 500” bulls can be natural or is there some doping going on?

A 500” bull seems a lot like a 200” Coues deer, just plain outrageous. The comment about people doing anything for power and fame is justified by human history – even in the hunting realm. I am not accusing Mr. Denny, or anybody else. I have stated over and over, I don’t know. I don’t know Denny, I don’t know Mossback, and I don’t know Utah. But I do know Arizona, the land of monster bulls, and 500” - in my opinion – is unbelievable.

Maybe two 500” bulls in the history of record keeping is evidence enough that these bulls are true, rare giants. I hope they are.

Asking the ethical questions about hunting is not bad for the sport, it is GOOD for the sport.

I am surprised that folks got irritated at my comments, but you gotta admit that it made for an interesting string.

And by the way, congrats to you Denny.

Mike

 

[ultramag]

think of it as an 8ft tall man, they do exist but very far and few.

[KB-AZ]

That bull is just amazing. Congrats to the hunter and guides. All these rumors about the bull escaping from a pen or being juiced are pretty silly. However, it seems there has been quite a bit of controversy surrounding auction hunts lately. Is alot of it fueled out of others jealousy? Sure it is. But I also think other hunters are concerned about what exactly hunting could become, and what effects these actions could mean to future generations. This is not jealousy, but a concern for our sport. I think these issues need to be looked at and discussed. I have mixed feelings about the circumstances regarding these hunts. On the one hand, you can't argue with the money these tags bring in and the benefit it has on wildlife. On the other hand, you get stuff like multiple guides sitting on animals for months, finders fees, shooting bulls in sub-divisions, etc. These things raise red flags not only with some hunters, but more importantly with some non-hunters. We need to ask ourselves, what could this lead to, and is it worth it?

[Noel Arnold]

Rembrant hit it right on the head.We our not accusing anybody ,but because of the way hunting has become with some people there is nothing wrong with asking questions.Cory said what about the shipsey bull that scored 500.Well I said before that there is a rumor that the San Carlos has done some feeding to there elk.And I will say again that I have no idea whether this is true or not.And I will always say that the auction tag's in every single state is a bad thing because in my opinion they do more bad then good.Heck in Arizona our dyke Govener will just take the money from the game department and pay off huge debt in other areas any way.And like some of the others said,I have no jealousy toward the shooter at all.

[Noel Arnold]

KB-AZ,

You just wrote all of the reasons why the auction tag's our not good.Good post!!!

[Browning'sCustomMeat]

Right on the nose KB-AZ!!!

[iwannakillsomething]

dude 500" aint nothin i got 3 1000" on the wall

just kidding MAN that thing is huge!!!!!!

[KB-AZ]

Noel, I don't think I hit on ALL the reasons why auction tags are not good. I can think of a few more. What do you think?

[krp]

Saying the Spider Bull is legit, let's look at the reasons most people are rubbed wrong with this deal.

 

Because of ego, ignorance or both, Mossback decided to go public early in the summer with this story. The mistake they made was thinking the emotional response they would generate would be positive for them. They created a personality, gave him a name, guessed his score, publisized a video portfolio, gave him an autience. It got people asking questions about tactics used, fair play and they didn't understand that most people will root for the underdog. In a story of the one against the many, unless the one is evil he will be the hero. This did throw a big spotlight on the Spider bull, but also on themselves and a tactic being used in the hunting industry. Corporate hunting, posse hunting, gang hunting, whatever you want to call it.

 

Corporate hunting consists of some or all of these things,

 

Multiple people in multiple locations hunting for a specific size or individual animal without a client present during hunting season.

 

Constant communication with cellphones, texting, radios.

 

Evenings spent in meetings or on the phone accumulating info for the next days hunt, and giving instructions.

 

Finders fees.

 

Preseason flying.

 

Video portfolio.

 

These are just a few examples and not directed at one specific outfutter, but is a direction a lot of outfitters are going. Corporate hunting is neither good or bad, just business.

 

Most of us that have never hired a guide, don't have an issue with guided hunts. You and your guide, or guides, out hunting is not any different than having your buddies take you to their honey hole and killing an animal. Hiring a team to spread throughout the countyside and put out the call when the target is found is different. For each additional spotter, scouter not with the client takes away some of the glory of the hunt, eventually success is watered down to nothing. Sometimes there is a standing finders fee for anyone with info resulting in success.

 

Most if not all outfits started corporate hunting by having family and friends becoming involved for the companionship we all enjoy from hunting, the extra eyes didn't hurt either. Some outfitters have taken this and designed a profitable business blueprint and risen to the top of the pack, at the core I imagine it's still about doing something they love with family and friends.

 

The uneasy feeling is not about money spent, or how nice the outfitter is, or who the client is. It's about the feeling that the spider bull wasn't treated with fair play. Most people only see a hunter hiring a team of professionals, using a special tag that allows him to hunt with any weapon at any time giving them an unfair advantage over other hunters with bows and the animal itself. They started this saga and opened themselves to public opinion, the majority is negative. I don't think they had any idea.

 

I'm mostly irked by by the fact that they thought I was stupid enough to be played for profit. That's what this was really about. It's not about how much was spent to kill a world record bull, but how much can be made on it. We've all fantasized about catching the WR bass or killing the WR elk, it would be like winning the lottery money wise. Most of us would do it the traditional way and not have it watered down and deserve everything we got. Now it's easy to see why the spider bull was promoted so early, to maximize profits. I bet there was a lot of wringing hands and knashing of teeth in the board meeting after he missed at 190 yds the first time he shot at the spider bull. Get out your credit cards because spidey mania is coming, gotta have that 19.95 video, that t shirt for my wife that has a pic of spidey with the words, BIG RACK OF THE WEST, on it. That'll make her laugh so hard I'll be able to see all four of her teeth. Where did I put that spidey beer cozy? I love it when I go on Barnes bullets website for info and get to see spidey's story again, and read how great a hunter that denny guy was. I wouldn't even be thinking of this stuff if it hadn't been shoved in my face two months early, and obliviously I'm not the only one. On one side you have those that don't understand the negativity and crying, jealousy, money envy, horn envy. On the other people not liking the ending of the story they've been following for months crying, big money, assassination, disgusting. Of course the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

Corporate hunting brings up alot of issues that we as hunters need to address. Here's one to think about, what legal recourse should I have if a outfitter or guide who represents a client or clients for the same hunt intinualy or unintinually disrupts my setup on an animal without the client present. With more paid scouters during the hunt, I can see this becoming a big problem. This could also be a problem with offering an open finders fee.

 

Kent

 

 

 

 

 

 

[.270]

this is an excellent post krp. said what a lot of folks have thought but couldn't put in words. posse hunting, i like that. good term. last year the same players in this fiasco had a big blow up in nevada because they had a big bull spotted and figured that because they had a guy with a lot of money that it was their elk and everyone else had to leave it alone. i guess another outfitter took a guy on the hunt and he shot it. there was a lot of mudslingin' over that deal. for some reason some folks think that whoever forks out the most money is the guy that should have dibs on things. a few years ago an old guy that can't even carry his own rifle bought an Az. pronghorn tag and shot a buck that was eventually recognized as the world record. only problem was that a college kid killed a buck the same year, with no guide and barely enough cash to make the hunt, that tied it. a guy i know said there was a lotta mad folks over that deal because this ol' dude had spent so much on the hunt and some kid from nowhere got one just as big. personally, i think all these extra curricullar tags should be raffle only. let everyone have a shot at them and maybe cut out some of this market hunting. if a guy wants to buy a tag for a huge bull, he can always hunt san carlos. Lark.

[Coues Archer]

That is a beast mann.

[AZ .22-250]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but this bull was a good Arizona grown bull. He shot this bull on the Apache Reservation. This area is known for giant bulls and huge Coues deer. I have personally talked to the hunter, Mike, and the taxidermist, Chris Williams, he's a true artist. I will hold my personal opinions about the hunter but the truth is he shot a whopper. The reason it wasnt entered was between the hunter and the tribe, it was a weird deal. I cant say more because it will give away who I am but I am from the White mountains. Copies were made of this bull and they are spectacular. The best steakhouse on the mountain had one in the bar area, it's under new owners now and I dont know if it's still there. It's a richmans game now days and it makes me sick, but I still drag my butt up and down the mountain with only a day pack good binos and rifle, chasing the Gray Ghost that eludes me, I don't have to feed an ego. I just wanted to clear up a few things about a natural, monarch bull.  By the way, lots of 400 bulls have already been killed on PUBLIC lands in AZ unit 1 and 27. New Mexico 16 is a good one too. Some huge Coues have been killed also. I saw a 141 in 1997 that came from Ft Apache that made me about swallow my tounge. TAKE A KIDHUNTING.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by AZ .22-250
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[Roosevelt Mark]

Wow, A blast from the past. I am carl.

[TOBY]

And Lark was here....