I'm out

[Snapshot]

You did a good Job though, it looks just like Doug Burris's world record.

[Coach]

A Van Gogh mule deer! Sweet!

 

I'm another one of those who don't beleive B&C or P&Y is the end-all in defining "fair chase". Using a radio on a hunt, to me, is no more an advantage than using salt and trail cameras, yet somehow those are not as clearly defined vis-a-vis "fair chase". We all have our own set of ethics, and for most of us it extends beyond what is legal. Personally, I wouldn't shoot a 1 year old barely legal buck even on the last day of the season, not because it isn't big enough to stroke my ego, but because I want to see it grow a few years - that's just me (Don't want my wife calling me a baby-killer either ). I don't have anything against the guy who shoots the first spike he sees.

 

I've used radios and in my opinion it does not take the "fair chase" out of spot-and-stalk bowhunting deer in the desert. Even with radios, I've got a big goose-egg on that one.

 

While I agree that if we see someone doing something illegal, we should call them out on it, I don't believe that we should be jumping all over someone for legally taking game in a way we might not choose to.

 

WRT not entering a deer in the books being ego-centric and disrespectful to the animal, yeeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with that one.

 

Just my $.02

[WHT_MTNMAN]

As mentioned above I think using Radios is the same as using trail cams too me ethically.. I don't use either one, first I don't use radios because I hunt alone, next I don't use trail cams because I just got a job and stopped going in debt for school and can't afford them yet . Anyway congrats to all those who get er done with or without all the extras.. I use a compound bow and a rangefinder and I still think it is more sporting to use a stick and string but haven't done it yet.. Too each there own.. Anyway.... time to leave for opening day in UT. Good luck to all

 

[4Falls]

Snapshot,

Finally someone got to the root of Redbeards argument. He was not denegrading any one. He was merely trying to bring up a discussion about ethics. Funny how these topics always morph into a finger-pointing name calling thread.

We all have our own set of ethics. Heated box blinds and 500 acre food plots are completely foriegn concepts to most western big game hunters but perfectly normal to a guy from Michigan or wherever.

Redbeard pointed out that the major record keeping clubs had a set of "guidelines" as to what they consider fair chase. Some one else may have a different idea. Heck what about road hunters (illegal by the way) and still it happens all the time. Those guys have no problem with it and they arent any less happy if they shoot a big bull or buck right from the window of the old Chevy.

Look whats happening in the news this week. Scientists developing cloaking devices. We cant even imagine the technology our grandkids will have. Just think how if money was no object the technology you could employ to help you kill a deer.

Thanks Redbeard for the great discussion.

[GodIsGood]

Has anyone pondered the notion that he actually GROWS them in a hyperbolic chamber like Michael Jackson and his chimps?

 

Whenst they have grown gi-normous eating his own recipe of Purina Monster Buck Chow, his posse takes them into the woods, ties them to a tree so he can stick 'em.

 

Just a thought - it could happen

[Huntn coues]

Just read this thread from post 1 and all I can say is wow

 

 

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

I think this was best answered with simply "$$$" and "he can". Seems a lot get wound up in the radio this or that, fair chase, etc., but the bottom line is loving to hunt and having the money to do it as you please. If I was wealthy and could spend $15k-$20k a year in Nevada to hunt mulies I could maybe do the same or at least have a lot of fun trying. I just wish I had $5k to spend on one of the landowner tags for this area. As a Nevada resident I can't even draw out for the area this buck was killed in.

 

 

Really this is where it is at.... bottom line. It is hunter envy..... we all want a 200", or a 120", or a 400" trophy on the wall. We can "what if" this to death... I bet that Randy would tell if asked, "Did you use a chute plane or radios to aid in the taking of that deer?" Maybe that is why they don't go in the book.... maybe it is cuz they are in velvet and only get printed once, maybe it is a lot of things.....

 

Regardless.... that is a Great buck.... Congrats on another monster bow kill.

 

For me there is one thing......

 

If I had 250-300+ days a year to dedicate to hunting and had all those resources and $$$$, it would be me you were reading about and B*t*hing about. I believe that given the chance, I could be the next Chuck Adams or Randy Ulmer... but I'm not bitter about that..... and if I ever win that Giganormous Loto I'll prove it!!!! And I bet that any one of you would love to have the life Randy leads.... hunting for a living.... I am very jealous of Randy's opportuny vs. mine..... but that is life..... and if he does or has breached a code of ethics to get that opportunity or keep that opportunity then he has to live with that, not me. I like going to sleep at night nowing that I got all my trophies the right way and I truely hope that he can say the same.... and if he can't.... well that is just bad Karma... IMO.

 

 

Just my $.02.......

 

 

BTW..... For the record..... I really HATE anyone who uses planes for the purpose of finding game.... ..... learning country durnig the summer months is one thing..... flying before or during hunts is just plain Chicken $h*t...... IMO. Get out there and EARN it!!!! Flying is Lazy..... just plain lazy.

[matthewp45]

I believe that if it is within the law, let a hunter hunt the way he wants. If he wants to spend 10 grand on every gadget cabelas has, great. If you wanna go straight traditional, right on. If there was a real unfair way of pursuing game it would be illegal or will be soon. So hunt how you want too and have a great time doing it and don't worry about everyone else. Who cares it isn't hurting you or the game one bit. So go have a good time and don't worry about how I kill my game. I am 100% legal and that is what matters. By the way I don't use radios.

[Guest 300ultramag.]

This thread makes me tingle inside..........Bravo!

 

Were all grown folks... and have our own standards... dont close this thread, that was a terrible suggestion.Mr Ulmer is the man! Redbeard is the man! Personally... Id rather pick Amandas brain then the 2 of em combined .... BTW Amanda it was nice to finally meet you up in the hills bout 4 mos. ago.... I believe I showed u a picture of nice cinnamon bear on 1 of my cams... U were in a bit of a hurry, heading to Camp Verde. Nice to finally meet u... Thanks again for the insight...

[huntnaz]

Sorry guys (and Gals) I've been out in the woods but it looks like you have been having a good time without me.

 

Dryfly,

 

Calm down buddy. The only thing I can say to you is that I DID NOT ATTACK ANYBODY PERSONALLY! Unless simply stating a fact is somehow a personal attack. Do you think that he would rather keep it a secret or something? For crying out loud he broke both of his legs in a chute plane accident and he didn't seem to be ashamed of that. If Randy doesn't use radios then I apologize for bringing his name up but since his guide has personally told me several stories of his hunts and radios figured prominently in each kill I considered it a fact. If you think bringing that up is an attack then that is your problem. It seems like the person being personally attacked is me but I can take it. Bring it on. I only brought up Randy because he had just killed another giant deer and I'm sure if anybody could do it WITHOUT using radios it would be him. You see it is sort of like current events in school. It brings up interesting things to talk about. Dryfly you seem to be overly sensitive about open discussion. effenjeff spelled it out pretty well.

 

Like I said before, I admire and respect him and believe he is very honest and pure as the driven snow. He does not enter these animals in P&Y and so there is no impropriety whatsoever in is actions. I'm not the least bit interested in bringing him down in the eyes of anybody. I have a picture of him and one of his big bucks next to my computer at work. Really. I like him. In fact if I could I would allow him to impregnate my wife so I could raise one of his children. Do you get it yet?

 

I'm not bagging on Randy and I don't have big buck envy nor do I think I am the ethics police. He's in another league anyway. I also don't think my own ethical standards are necessarily the highest nor the best so give it a rest although I don't do anything in the woods that I would be ashamed for you all to know either. I'm proud of my standards but I don't expect everybody to worship me or for that matter even care what I do. This is about a discussion on ethics and specifically the use of radios.

 

Becker, Sounds like you are trying to undermine my credibility. Attacking my credibility is sort of like attacking Darwin when you disagree with evolution. He's just the guy that came up with the idea of natural selection. His character has nothing to do with the evidence. Whether I use trail cams or not is immaterial anyway since they are not disallowed by the rues of fair chase.

 

Well, not that it matters but yes, I do use trail cams although I have yet to actually kill something I have a picture of. I have sat salt but never been successful killing something off of that either. I do sometimes carry a range finder but I never seem to get to use it when I need it. It really doesn't help much with a longbow anyway. Come to think of it it hasn't improved my compound bow shooting either. Not that I would be ashamed to be successful using any of these things. I'm really pretty inept I guess.

 

Maybe some of you missed my earlier posts where I made the point that we all have our own ethics and values. I'll try to explain it another way. The game laws are the minimum acceptable standards that we all MUST abide whether we agree or not. Then, like religions, there are various other higher ideals that we strive for as individuals. Hopefully these things make us better people and improve our relations with others. If nothing else we do it for eternal life or so we won't have to go to Phoenix when we die. We each draw the line somewhere whether it is our religious values or our hunting ethics.

 

The record books have decided that the line for them is called "fair chase" and they spell it out in a short list of rules. I kinda look at that as my minimum standards for hunting ethics. We'd have fewer black eyes in the media if more hunters would strive to have a higher than the minimum ethical standard required by the law. I also think it would improve the hunting experience, increase sportsmanship among hunters in the field, improve relations with landowners, cause lower wounding loss, and lead to many other positive outcomes. Fair chase is a good thing. Radios are just one currently popular trend that lies outside the concept of fair chase.

 

Not using radios certainly makes hunting more sporting but it also enriches the hunt and probably decrease success. Remember our AZGFD really hates it when we actually kill a deer. When success rates go up, specifically for archery, then tags and opportunity go down and new laws meant to limit our success are passed. The archery draw sound familiar? Bait is next to be outlawed. They have reduced archery bull elk tags and have used our "too high success rates" as an excuse. I'd bet there would be a lot fewer bulls killed if there weren't 10 guys on hills with radios guiding each hunter in on big bulls. How do these guides do it? That's how. If I paid $20000 for a tag in NM or NV I would probably be the kind of hunter that wouldn't have a problem with that too. Let's face it. A guy who pays that kind of money expects to kill a trophy. But I'm not that kind of hunter and P&Y and B&C don't think that way either. Does that make me better than you? No.

 

I did post the rules directly from the P&Y website and they are not outdated just less specific than B&C and since we were talking bowhunting I thought they were more pertinent. Believe me P&Y has considered the trail cam and range finder issues and determined that they are not disallowed under their rule. They may choose to be more specific in the future though.

 

From this thread I have learned a few things:

 

almost everybody on cw.com uses radios and doesn't have a problem with it. (except Dryfly who apparently thinks it is very offensive )

most posters don't plan to enter anything in the record books or they would not use radios

most don't really think fair chase is an important concept.

 

Did I miss anything

 

Oh, yeah. I am an arrogant elitist who looks down his nose at anybody who doesn't do things exactly as I do.

 

more?

 

To prove that I'm not hiding behind some screen name (which I'm sure I will be accused of next) I'll try to post a picture of My Highness so that if you see me in the woods you can frisk me to be sure I don't have any radios. Note that even though I obviously killed this bull with my bare hands I do wear clothes and use high quality optics and wear a hat to keep the sun out of my eyes. I will try to live up to the loincloth standards next year but I'm going to have to work on a tan first. And yes, I feel like less of a man because Randy has killed a bigger bull or ten. Actually I think his mule deer are bigger than this milk sucker. I think I'll go kick my dog now to make me feel better about myself.

 

At least Dryfly will know who he hates. Maybe he will put my picture next to his computer.

 

 

Hi, I'm a newby... I THINK REDBEARD WASN'T HUGGED ENOUGH AS A CHILD!!! JMO

[bearbait]

Redbeard-

 

I had mixed feelings about if you were attacking Randy or even if you were just a pompous a$$!!! I have read each post on this thread. But after reading you last post, I believe you made your self as clear as possible (I Hope! ), and I now believe you are NOT attacking anyone. Although it kind of sounded like it in the beginning, and reading the other posts, others thought so too.

 

I think, no, I HOPE, everyone will understand what you are trying to say after reading your last post. Good job on your arguments and not backing down from anyone! This was a very nice topic, even with all the bashing on you and anyone else!

 

I my self do use radios to keep in contact with my buddy or who ever I am with. It is a safety thing, and I think everyone should have a radio with them and who ever they are with for safety reasons, like breaking your leg, etc. But I have never tried using them in conjunction with trying to TAKE game. I didn't even know that was not allowed if you want to put your game in a book. Not that I need to know that because I probably won't ever reach the mark!!

 

Again, I think your last post cleared up A LOT!!! Thank you.

 

[BOHNTR]

From this thread I have learned a few things:

 

almost everybody on cw.com uses radios and doesn't have a problem with it. (except Dryfly who apparently thinks it is very offensive

 

Actually there was another who doesn't use them.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

From this thread I have learned a few things:

 

almost everybody on cw.com uses radios and doesn't have a problem with it. (except Dryfly who apparently thinks it is very offensive )

most posters don't plan to enter anything in the record books or they would not use radios

most don't really think fair chase is an important concept.

 

Did I miss anything

 

Oh, yeah. I am an arrogant elitist who looks down his nose at anybody who doesn't do things exactly as I do.

 

more?

 

To prove that I'm not hiding behind some screen name (which I'm sure I will be accused of next) I'll try to post a picture of My Highness so that if you see me in the woods you can frisk me to be sure I don't have any radios. Note that even though I obviously killed this bull with my bare hands I do wear clothes and use high quality optics and wear a hat to keep the sun out of my eyes. I will try to live up to the loincloth standards next year but I'm going to have to work on a tan first. And yes, I feel like less of a man because Randy has killed a bigger bull or ten. Actually I think his mule deer are bigger than this milk sucker. I think I'll go kick my dog now to make me feel better about myself.

 

Chris,

 

You had me pretty interested in your last post... right up to the part above. It can not be argued that you try to hold yourself to a high (or higher) level of ethics than most guys. But, you and I both know that you pull your pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.... You have made and lost friends do to hunting or hunting pratices that may have been above or below your fellow hunter/friend's standards. Over time you have come into your own just as many of us have and live by "your rule book" just as each hunter does to some extent. But, to buttume that many use radios "for the purpose of taking game" is erroneous and kinda rude. I usually carry radios in my pack while hunting (rifle hunting).... but that does not mean that I use it for the purpose you consider radios for. And like you I carry a range finder.... that does not mean I actuall use it.... last year I ranged a bull for my buddies daughter using the paralax adjustment on my scope and she center punched him! Is that unaceptable???? And how about Pandora's Box..... shall we open it???? Do you carry a cell phone while in the woods??? Does that mean that you use in the taking of game? Does sitting in a ground blind or treestand ten plus hours board out of your mind and texting your buddies to pass the time count against you???? Can you hold a guy responsible or finger point at him based on intent??? Probably not.....

 

I am not attacking you..... only stating a few points of interest considering the things we all do..... You started a barn burner thread...... ..... You have to take some heat when your standing in the kitchen! We can finger point to death... and devide our ranks all day long. This has been a great thread, and aside from a few emotional statements, we have all had very good points here and there... IMO.

 

You are very correct in the statement that the record books draw a clear line in the sand.... if you want in, stay on the right side of the line! Many have no inerest in record books, that is obvious, but for those that do we can only hope that they carry thier ethics on thier sleeve. We, however, cannot deny the progress in technology.... and how it has changed our sport forever... it can and will never go back. Just as life in America, never, will be what is was 25, or 50, or 100 years ago.... that is human evolution.

[HEADACHE]

I just went out and bought my first set of radios, been hunting in the woods with my bow for about 15 years now and have never used radios. No fun talking on a radio to yourself. And I always thought they were illegal ha ha ha shows you how much I pay attention. ( I can hear you laughing Josh) But honestly I don't care if you use them.

 

I am glad that we are all getting along a little better now, maybe this will help bring our hunting fellowship closer together.

We are all brothers in hunting, we may not share all the same resources, or ethics, or have the same ideas about certain things, but make no mistake, we all love to be in the woods hunting with our weapons and cleansing our manly spirit in the great outdoors.

 

The beast is dead! Long live the beast! (I don't know why Uncle Ted says that, but it sounds pretty cool sometimes)

[TAM]

Screw the record books! All of them, B&C, P&Y, and SCI. Just because you follow there rules doesn't mean the rest of us will. Don't hold us to your standards. Since when in life should we start allowing groups and orginizations to dictate what's right or wrong? That is each individuals God given right to choose for themselves. To assume that everyone that hunts will subscribe to the same set of ethics that was set up by the Boon & Crockett Club is crazy!

 

As far as I'm concerned the law sets the minimum bar. If you choose to live a higher standard good for you, but please don't expect me to do the same.

 

How many people here are card carrying members of the B&C or P&Y? Those should be the ones that you're preaching to.

 

I'm not a member, and have no intention of joining.