bonecollector777

As for hunting not in the constitution I can guarantee you myself and others will continue to hunt long after the government says we don't have a right to.

little too late to do the right thing now isnt it? Our department should have made education a priority with the millions they receive in funding. Their education budget may have been low but who's fault is that? Theirs. They have all the power to put whatever money they please towards educating people. But they relaxed and didnt think they needed to. Well guess what? Now they know they needed to. And to fix it quick they offer up our tags as sacrifice. I'd bet if every employee at game and fish took a $1000 pay cut and wardens didnt get new trucks every year they'd have all the money they'd ever want for education. But that will never happen. Instead let's use publics tags to make up for us being stupid and lazy.

One other interestings thing I have been thinking is the conserve and protect Arizona group has already said that they don't want to take 1 of the auction tags or raffle tags for this cause. Because that money goes to the HPC fund. Wouldn't it be more important to use that money to save our hunting rights like you guys claim rather than using all of it for habitat projects? After all what is the purpose of habitat helping animals if we lose the right to hunt them? The value of animals will go down significantly if we lose our hunting rights so I would think at least splitting the money half-and-half for habitat projects and the other half for education and political fights would be more than fair. And it would raise plenty of money with the additional raffle tags to get the job done.

Has there ever been an account set up for sportsman to donate $20 to this specific cause? No. . So you don't know how much would be donated to the cause. Last I checked all of us donate several hundred if not thousands of dollars in draws, app fees, raffle tags, donations to raffles of each organization etc. . All the while here we thought game and fish was using atleast some of our money for education just to find out they weren't. Who knows what it was spent on but its obvious they didnt care to try and use it to educate people. I understand the part they cant use it for political fights but youd think maybe they'd use some to try and inform the public about their cause and purpose. But alas they DIDNT. Now the story line is we have to raise more money RIGHT NOW or were going down. Well why didnt the game and fish look out for hunters in the years leading up to this? They got their tag and license fee raises but what changed? Extra new truck? They apparently don't realize we don't give them money to simply pay them. We give them money to protect wildlife and help our cause through education. You keep saying hunting is a right and not a privilege. Wrong. Hunting is as much a right as is breathing air. The government simply came in and told you it was a right by making you buy a license or tag. They're obviously a necessary entity but being the ones taking our money seems like they would have put forth more of an effort to protect our hunting by educating people. But they didnt and now the responsibility falls on other groups to make up for it. And our tags are what's going to be sacrificed in this nonsense. Like I said raffle tags will be supported by most but auction tags will be heavily disliked by most. That's the biggest and most important part of this. NO AUCTION TAGS.

Dave you keep going to that about well why don't you do it? How about instead of making a whole separate group from nothing, we use the already formed groups that people know like you guys are doing and just do raffle tags? I've never said that your guys goal is a bad thing. I'm simply asking start with raffle tags before jumping to auction tags. But when I talk to you on the phone several times and you say oh no no there wont be any auction tags. And if there are it will be one of the current auction tags already. Then Pete straight up says we need auction tags and were gonna have them because they bring in more money. That's the whole point why people aren't going to support this. No shortcuts for rich people to get tags. Raffle off more tags if needed. Every dam week the elk and deer society raffle off swaros and sell out in a few hours. Why cant this group do the same on top of the raffle tags? I'm not saying what you guys are doing is bad but simply giving my opinion that we don't need auction tags. If no auction tags I'll support this til the end. But when auction tags are in the mix its gonna be a no from the majority.

You can tell Pete is all for the auction tags and that's where he loses my support. No doubt they bring in more money but it's the simple fact of not letting even just a couple rich guys have access to the front of the line. Even if its just a week or two long auction tag. If they need more money then bump up the number of raffle tags.

If I'm not mistaking that link you just posted was something that was just very recently put together. Do you know when it was posted? Because it's the first thing I've read that CAPAZ didnt take full credit. But what they have done for sure is make it known that their way is the only way to save hunting as we know it. Last I checked in the last thirty years there have been two major attempte to take some hunting and trapping rights. One for trapping in the 90s and one for cat hunting just now. Yes there could be more in the future but youd think we've been battling these groups year after year since the beginning of time. Pete himself said in the last podcast the HSUS has unlimited money and if they want something passed then more than likely they are gonna get it passed. So what do we think $2 million is gonna do against $150 million? When they come back and beat us anyway then what happens?

I like the part where he says groups are taking sole credit for stopping the lion ban and that's wrong. . "But we need to give our group the credit and you need to pledge support to our conserve and protect group." WTF?

Heather, we appreciate that you trust everything these people are saying but you have to see the other side of things were talking about. There are a lot of questions to be answered. When things like whtmtnhunter said come up it just puts more questions on top of things that people already don't trust. Several members of this new group are from the group in 2012 that tried pushing this stuff through without telling anyone. So naturally people question their motives this time around. It's good and great that this group came together to be a part of stopping the lion hunting ban. I know what they did specifically to help but it's far from being able to say they were the sole reason it got stopped. Several reasons came together all of which helped. They did what they said they were gonna do this time around and that's great but now turning over power of our tags to them and just trusting them completely would be a bad idea. I don't care what the subject is it's never a good idea to give one small group of people that kind of power. I understand the need for funds to help in the next fight but boundaries need to be set. No group out there is going to have the budget the HSUS has for stuff like this so a big worry is when 1 million isnt enough what's gonna stop them from saying we need 5 million and start taking more tags? Prove the money is gonna go where they say and their intentions are truthful. They have a lot of prove to hunters of az before we trust them with our tags. And with the 2012 thing they are starting off with even less trust than any other group that could be put together. I truly believe raffle tickets only with limits on tickets per person and non transferrable tags will help them reach their goal. Mix that with donations they can receive and also the money they are gonna make off the banquet to raffle these tags and other items they could raffle off they could bring in a good chunk of change. But if they jump straight to more auction tags now or in the future their intentions will be obvious. Let's wait to see what's said in the meetings and all the info passed out but they have a thin line to walk right now and one shady thing could turn everyone against them. I hope they do the right thing and their intentions are honest. They need to have meeting specific to this subject and not just during already organized groups meetings. Talking all of the board members and commissioners and give ample warning of when those meetings will be so we can show up and ask the hard questions.

Interesting. . Little bit scary if the same people appointing the people that decide are the some of the same people pushing this.

I feel like I know the draw fairly well and am stumped on this. Was bored looking through the draw report and looked at hunt 3004 (unit 9 early rifle) 35 total tags. That's 7 tags for the bonus pass. 10% for NR would be 3.5 which is rounded to 3. Only half of that can to NR in the bonus pass which is 1.5 which rounds to 1. So no matter how you look at it there is 1 tag for a NR available in the bonus pass and 6 for residents. How did the guy with 24 points whether resident or NR not draw a tag? Only one guy with 24 points applied and it was his first choice. Similar with the guys with 23. If by some unknown reason the guy with 24 points didnt draw how did the guys with 23 points not draw either? Am I missing something or do you agree there was a mess up? (The guys with 23 I could see if they were NR and on the same app they couldnt draw the one tag but the guy with 24 I think got screwed)

How many hunters receive big game permits each year? What if every hunter in the state GAVE more to conservation than they took? But they don't...they are entitled to it right? and conservation just magically happens...I don't know...Myself I could not in good conscience call "sacrificing" a few tags per hunt for conservation and the preservation of what I love a "sacrifice"...If I did I'd call that selfishness...and we're not even "sacrificing" the tags...EVERYBODY would have the opportunity to buy/bid on the tags...that would actually be another...more...a second opportunity to get a tag. I see it as a way to use our assets (deer elk etc.) to protect our ASSets... you have an extra 50k-100k laying around to throw at an auction tag? I don't. But what most of us do have is an extra $50-$100 to throw at some raffle tags. And so do the rich guys. So that's why I'm all for raffle tags and no auction tags. Everyone on the same level and money still gets raised.I cant imagine spending that kind of $ on a tag...doesnt mean Im opposed or against to someone that does...the world will never be on the same level...And I dont see the guy that willing and able to spend 100k...200k on a tag as the enemy...I will still be benefiting from his $ that goes towards something that I love... sounds like Utah is the place for you. SFW up there would be right up your alley. But here in az we prefer not to give the rich guy an advantage over the common man.

How many hunters receive big game permits each year? What if every hunter in the state GAVE more to conservation than they took? But they don't...they are entitled to it right? and conservation just magically happens...I don't know...Myself I could not in good conscience call "sacrificing" a few tags per hunt for conservation and the preservation of what I love a "sacrifice"...If I did I'd call that selfishness...and we're not even "sacrificing" the tags...EVERYBODY would have the opportunity to buy/bid on the tags...that would actually be another...more...a second opportunity to get a tag. I see it as a way to use our assets (deer elk etc.) to protect our ASSets... you have an extra 50k-100k laying around to throw at an auction tag? I don't. But what most of us do have is an extra $50-$100 to throw at some raffle tags. And so do the rich guys. So that's why I'm all for raffle tags and no auction tags. Everyone on the same level and money still gets raised.

I've said it a hundred times if its raffle tags only I'm for it 100%. As long as there is a cap on number of tickets per raffle per person. I truly believe they can raise the funds needed with raffles only. What people are scared of is that this is gonna turn into auctioning tags as soon as the group thinks they need more money. Once auction tags enter the picture that's when this group is gonna lose the support from the people. If they can promise raffle tags only have at it. I don't even mind if they take those from the already allotted tags. (VERY LOW PERCENTAGE OF TAGS) No different than trying to be drawn for the tag in the regular azgfd draw except that money can be used to fight HSUS. I'll support that all day long but there cant be any of this open ended stuff that let's there be a chance auction tags will come up in the future.

I completely understand this point of view and it has some merits. However how do we know HSUS will be back in 2 years? There is no way of knowing that first and foremost. Second, why is 5 million the magic number? What if after all this we still lose? Do we get the tags back in 2 years or will they ask for more tags so they can get more money? Obviously they will want more tags, plain and simple. Furthermore, Just because lion hunting is banned does not mean that they overrun the state. AZGFD will still have the ability to kill them when and where needed. California kills hundreds of lions each year even with their ban. As far as Utah, they give out literally hundreds or thousands of auction, raffle, and landowners tags every year as they have alot more game and habitat than AZ does. The one unique thing about Arizona, that separates it from most surrounding states, is that is has no landowner tags and very few auction/raffle tags. This is more about letting the rich guy that flies his leer jet in from Naples, FL the ability to get out of line, pay 30k, and hunt elk every year in the best elk state in the US. The guides and rich non-residents love this proposal as it totally circumvents the draw process. The rest of us get fewer tags and no guarantee it will even make a difference.That's kind of how I'm seeing it. When does it stop? When we still lose do we give it up and go back to how it is? Of course not we end up auctioning more tags because we need more money. If it were a set number from the beginning that wasnt too many and couldnt go up and they were all raffle tags I'd be cool with it. No auction tags period.

Bonecollector, shhh. . Just go with it and trust them remember? Shedhunter said so. Don't ask questions and don't try and figure out when their meetings are. They know what's best for us even if we don't know it yet. It's the only way. But back in reality yes you're correct nothing has been sent to anyone regarding meetings nor has it been posted. I'm waiting for the first one to be announced and I'll be there assuming they give ample time to prepare to get there. My mind is not made up yet but these meetings and how they treat our ideas is gonna be the real deciding factor on what their intentions are.

Please stop saying well only one person came to the meeting. It helps when the meeting isnt announced hours before and then the meeting is actually moved forward an hour. If they are wanting transparency their two first meeting have been a secret and that doesn't look good starting off. I agree that we need a funding source. But we don't need auction tags to get there. Raffling off tags will get the money needed. If there is an auction tag take one of them from the already two per species we have. One can go to the habitat like it does already and one can go to this new fund. As soon as more auction tags are suggested noone is going to want that because that was the whole reason behind the tag grab last time. Now a lot of the same people that did it last time are a part of it again but saying it's different this time. Just hard to trust any of it at this time. Post up the next meeting that we actually have more than 3 hours to plan to get there and you'll get plenty of people to show up and ask tough questions. Your on Coues 500 times a day and cant take time to look at their websites for information? What am I missing? You can update your Facebook status and Instagram every minute of the day but cant do a little research into the conservation groups for a sport you so dearly love? Sounds a little narsasistic to me. bro stop while you're behind. I've posted 6 posts on fb and Instagram this year. Your wife has me beat just this week. Regarding this subject I had no idea asking questions and talking to Dave three times yesterday for an hour each time was such a bad thing. Also didnt know it was my responsibility to have to go to their page to find out when meetings are. Oh wait even if I had they didnt post anything about it. I know you've got a little bit of money so I can see why you're all for this tag deal without questioning it but those of us that wont be able to afford these tags like to ask questions about what's going on. All I've done is pass on info regarding what I've heard from Dave and all you've done is comment to guys asking questions that they're idiots and kids that don't understand. Not exactly helpful.

your adbss meetings are regularly scheduled. I'm talking the meeting they set up just before your meeting. The one they didnt tell anyone about including dave from the ADS.

I just looked at their facebook page, not a single post regarding any kind of meeting unless I over looked it. So much for transparency! I want to believe these guys are trying to help wildlife but with the two first meetings being so secretive I've got a bad feeling. Even members of this so called board that was formed weren't invited. He seems to be more on the conservative side of it as well. Suspicious. Until they set up actual meetings where people can plan to get there and ask questions and they seem to actually listen to the publics ideas, I'm not for any of this.

Please stop saying well only one person came to the meeting. It helps when the meeting isnt announced hours before and then the meeting is actually moved forward an hour. If they are wanting transparency their two first meeting have been a secret and that doesn't look good starting off. I agree that we need a funding source. But we don't need auction tags to get there. Raffling off tags will get the money needed. If there is an auction tag take one of them from the already two per species we have. One can go to the habitat like it does already and one can go to this new fund. As soon as more auction tags are suggested noone is going to want that because that was the whole reason behind the tag grab last time. Now a lot of the same people that did it last time are a part of it again but saying it's different this time. Just hard to trust any of it at this time. Post up the next meeting that we actually have more than 3 hours to plan to get there and you'll get plenty of people to show up and ask tough questions.

claim is money will be used to inform non hunters of what game and fishes purpose is and why they need to be the ones to manage wildlife and eventually push for another ballot initiative like a few years ago to give game and fish sole power over management and hsus cant bring a ballot initiative to stop hunting like they tried. Seems like tbey should have been doing that atleast a little bit with past money but guess they didnt. Then of course the money will be used to fight hsus and other animal rights groups when they try things like this year. That's what's being said by them but time will tell. If that is truly the purpose and they can fulfill that purpose without giving rich people any more opportunity than they currently have for our tags I'd be ok with it. They can fulfill their goals of money strictly through raffle tags and not doing any auction tags. Charge an extra dollar per ticket or give a few more chances per raffle and you'll have the money an auction tag would generate.

but that did happen. And he wasnt in deep doo doo. He was actually unpunished and the state of AZ paid him 100k after he sued them.

I asked that and was told yeah it can be changed but it would take 3-5 years of legislation and we don't have that long. The one thing that does kind of worry me and catch my attention is how they are portraying it as we better do this or hunting as we know it will end. Kind of seems odd that this is the only way to saving it but who knows maybe it is the only way to get the money fast to stop HSUS. still a lot of questions to be answered. Another interesting one was oh hey now that you know about it 5 hours ago were gonna have our question answering session at 6 tonight. Like we can make it down that fast.

I talked to Dave again and he explained in further detail that basically any money from any tag or fee from azgfd cant be used to fight political fights even if it's against themselves. Dumb but apparently that's the law and the state would get sued. Also all the money from big game super raffle is all allocated to wildlife habitat projects as of right now. Don't know why they couldnt change that though. He said as of right now they're talking about possibly removing one of the auction tags and turning it into a unit specific auction tag that only can be hunted during a particular season and that money would be able to be given to this new fund. He also said they would auction off 1 lower quality October coues and other lower quality tags and that money would be given to this new fund. Claimed there would never be any new state wide auction tags or any extra high quality hunts auctioned off. Then regarding the raffe of tags they would definitely have some sort of limit on number of tags. Possibly as low as 1 tickets per person for each drawing. He said none of the tags will be taken out of the regular hunt tag pools. Just passing on the info and I'm sure Jay will have more answers after the meeting but I'll have to wait til final drafts to believe what they're gonna try and do.

What he said! I've known Pete since the 1970s. He's probably done more for conservation in this state than 99.9% of the members here. He's one of the reasons that more than twice as many hunters get to chase desert sheep now than in the 1970s. I don't know Pete and what he has done but sounds like a good guy. BUT that doesn't mean just because Pete has helped wildlife his whole life that we need to agree with or support something he does or agrees with. I'm saying right now if any sort of extra auction tags are brought to the table its gonna get crazy. They can make their money other ways and not involve the rich guys having an advantage. I'm all for the raffle tags with a limit on number of tickets per person if that's truly the best way to raise money to save hunting. I just think there are better ways that don't involve taking tags from regular Joe's and giving them to people with money. Best idea so far is a habitat stamp that's $10-$20 a year and that money goes to this fund.