GotBowAz

I will preface this by saying in no way am I trying to get someone to change what they are confident in hunting with. This is just my opinion from the testing I have done and why I shoot what I do. I do not mean any offence to anyone, these are my real life observations only. IMO mechanicals got a bad rap mostly because just like anything that comes out new it has issues. Just as the compound bow did and look at them now. The failure most speak of are self induced because they cant comprehend how an mechanical works and this includes poor penetration do to wide cutting blades with light fast arrows and weak spine. I cant stress enough that if you use a mechanical head you should be shooting minimum of 550 grain arrow or better when hunting an animal as large as elk. However you got the I gotta have speed guys put on a mechanical and wonder why they get poor penetration. Epek failure occurs and then the heads get a bad rap all because the shooter didn’t know what he was doing with his equipment. Then there are the guys who understand mechanicals even less and shove that BH into their foam quiver and wonder why it came open. They cant figure out that’s the way it works? I just shake my head. You never hear of the guys who’s fixed head came unscrewed and the blades fell out in their quiver because their too embarrassed by their mistake. But don’t kid yourself, it still happens. Then you have inferior design issues such as Rage that wont stay closed in flight due to a crappy design with the head. However that can be overcome by taking a dermal and notching the outside leading edge of the blades and using a dental rubber band or a strand of copper wire and wrapping it around the notches so it can’t open until impact. These ideas work and work well combined with a very heavy arrow. But who wants to doctor up heads? However, if your mechanically inclined you can figure out pretty quick why these and other heads fail and if your inclined to do so, what you can do to keep them from failing. I see no excuse for shooting a Mechanical because they can’t tune a fixed blade. I have Slick Tricks and VPA’s tuned with my field points thus my mechanical’s are as well. I shoot a mechanical for the forgiveness in cross winds but mostly because of the huge swath in a large animal such as elk. I get complete pass through with my set up. The disadvantage, loss of speed and flat trajectory. I will take that and keep my huge holes and bigger blood loss. For the nay sayers out there mechanical heads have come a long way. I steer clear of any mechanical that has jack knifing forward deploying blades. Old school heads. They can and do have kick out issues specially on quartering away shots so I don’t have confidence in them. The Schwacker would be the exception to the rule but only because it opens inside the animal on impact. Exit holes are huge, but not always made. IMO Technology/design with rear deploying blades have paved the way for a superior mechanicals. Bottom line is most that bash mechanical’s either didn’t know what they were doing with them, how they functioned, what weights of arrows and spine to use, or haven’t even ever shot them. I have done extensive testing with mechanical’s of all kinds. Some are junk, some fixed blades are too. Bottom line, shoot what your confident in. if your not confident in mechanical’s then don’t use them. On the other hand, if you don’t know anything about them, never shot them, and don’t know their function then maybe you should try testing a few as I did to understand their function and how they work. Then you can have a much better opinion on why you shouldn’t use them. If anyone is interested in the testing I’ve done or why I go with the head I am using now PM me. Id be happy to pass it on. GBA

Alpine, thats funny! too bad you didnt record it. that would have made one heck of a youtube! I rarely if ever hunt water holes because everyone else has the same idea. I do hunt their travel routes to and from and will hang a camera to see which way they frequent most or in the case of a previous post, which way he is coming from. For me, this seems to be the best practice. On the occasions I have hunted a water hole I have noticed how jumpy/spooky whitetails can be coming in, it seems to take long time to settle down if they come in at all. However 100 yards away from the water on their travel routes they are much less weary. Im thinking most of that is because of predators of the 4 legged kind more so than of humans. GBA

I am now exclusively shooting NAP Killzones. I would not hesitate to shoot an elk with a 550 plus grain arrow tipped with a Killzone head on the business end of it. I've tested a LOT of Mechanical's and IMO this head out performs all other mechanical's all the way around in design and operation. It is a rear deploying head, fully opened on entry with excellent penetration for a 2" plus head with no worries in mid flight deployment. The only thing I would like better is if the ferrule was made out of steel, then I could drop the brass 100 grain HIT insert from my FMJ's and screw on a head with great FOC and create the weight that is needed to complete a passthrough on a big elk. GBA

I saw one big orange and black one in unit 21 about 10 years ago. He was crossing the road just prior to seven springs. Very cool looking creature. GBA

Azkiller, your comparison doesn't compute, the Indians aren't stupid enough to start fires in dry windy dangerous conditions. Only us Non Reservation folk that seem to think they NEED to have a campfire burn our forests down. No amount of cleaning (as you say ) is going to stop fires if people are too ignorant when not to have one. The warnings are all over, I even had forest service stop by camp to be sure we wouldn't have a fire. Seems like common sense to me but I guess some feel they can make up their own rules and take their own risks, and for what? because people don't feel like their camping unless they have a fire? I don't get why anyone would want to risk it and if a fire is what it takes to make you feel like your having a camping experience then that's just sad. And by the way, I can show you Reservation areas that are way worse than ours compared to what needs cleaned/thinned out. GBA

Great write up Christina, you made it feel like we were right there with you. You have mentioned that Tom was the one who introduced you into hunting and somewhat showed you the ropes to get you started. It appears to me Tom could take some lessons from you, LOL! You get better and better every hunt. A great and happy mothers day to boot! Awesome post, thanks for shareing. GBA

Good ones Jeff, those a re funny. Here is another Your are standing in a dogs puddle, Urine pee pee! GBA

Just my thoughts but I think you have 2 things coming into play, one is spine and the other is is FOC. You have a higher FOC and stiffer spine with your Vital impacts. When you went to the Bloodline you shortened the arrow, lower FOC and you also went with a heavier arrow for the same spine and weakened it even more by cranking up your bow. GBA

Patrick, is there a rest of the story? did your dad get a sheep or at least have an unforgettable experience? GBA

Antmo23, Thanks for the info. looks like a pretty good release. GBA

I have never shot this type of release or any of the back tension releases for that matter. I hear a lot of positives about them though. I have a couple of questions about the ringer just by looking at it from the picture by the OP. Are you compressing the button with the ring finger while drawing and then letting up on the pressure of the ring finger to release? If I’m not aided by my wrist to pull back 65 to 70 pounds then I’m going to want all my fingers to do it. This devise appears that you either could not use your ring finger to draw or you have to let up on your ring finger to release. I'm not sure I would care for that. Also, it appears to have a slot for a strap to go on your wrist? So is this release flopping around loosely and then you got to get it set in your hand for a shot or is it strapped to the palm of your hand in some way? I would see why you would want to strap it on in some fashion so you don’t leave it on a rock after picking up your bino’s to glass, but it sure would aggravate me if it flopped around and hit the riser on my bow while I was sneaking through the bush. GBA

Jeff, I join your frustration with no elk tag…again! Grrrrrrrrrrrr! I never did the math to figure out what my FOC percent is but I got to be pushing 22 percent maybe more. Like you, I think anything over 15 percent would be considered getting up there in the higher end of FOC and 25 percent is getting extreme. I shoot a 28 inch arrow at 11.2 grains an inch , a 100 grain brass insert up front and with a 100 grain BH. That would ALMOST be the same as screwing on a 200 grain BH. I say almost because the 100 grain brass insert goes back in the arrow a good 2.5 inches behind the BH. So an actual 200 grain BH would make a higher FOC. I honestly don’t think there is enough of a difference to matter. Personally I don’t care if my FOC is extreme or not. I just wanted to get to 550 grains total arrow weight tipped with a 100 grain head. I wasn’t really looking for FOC, it just happened to be the best route to get to my minimum desired arrow weight. Along the way I found that the higher FOC produced better tighter groups and was much easier to work with than tubing arrows. Again, my experiments with tubing and heavy FOC didn’t prove squat in a difference when it came to penetration but it made enough difference in grouping that I went to a heavier FOC to achieve my total arrow weight goals. With this set up I will blow my choice of 2 inch mechanicals through an elk with not a whole lot of energy/momentum left over to go out past 10 yards or so. My thoughts are that I am seriously considering hunting wild boar and their sheaths from what I understand are hard to penetrate. I will use the same arrow set up on them but change my BH’s over to slick tricks or VPA’s. Then again, IMO I’m looking at a smaller animal so my holes don’t need to be as big but I still need to achieve a pass through. Otherwise I might boost my arrow weight up another 100 grains or more and use my choice of mechanical BH. GBA

I run Michelin tires. they are quiet, great on fuel mileage, quiet, I can get them in a 10 ply for off road or hauling my 5th wheeler... oh did I mention they are quiet?? I cant stand noisy fuel eating mud tires. if your going off road in muddy or snow conditions then just as ThomC said in his post, chain up. they will never let you down so long as you get a heavy set. Put a set of chains on a 2 wheel drive truck in the thick heavy mud and you will out pull, out perform and outdistance any 4 wheel drive locked in with mud tires. and their cheaper than a new set of tires too. GBA

I m not sure, that's a good question though. I would think it would at least need to be 2 inches. I have never shot anything under 2" though. My philosophy on mechanical is only to achieve extra large holes, the bigger the animal the bigger the hole. I don't shoot them to tune easier or for accurate flight as I can tune just about any BH to hit with my FP's. i just want as large a hole as i can get to aide in a quicker cleaner kill and recovery. GBA

Oops, Commie, I meant 4 blade hole, my bad. it was a slick trick. great heads. I agree with most your comments. I just wanted to point out that even though you have the same blade cutting surface you do not have near the hole as the flaps of hide and meat do not scratch open like a single long cut does. Using your examples I tried to create what I was mentioning. The green represents what is open. As for penetration. obviously a pass through is a pass through and if that's what your looking for (which I am) then I will make my total arrow weight high enough to achieve it. if I want fast I will make a light arrow with a small fixed head. if I want huge blood trails im going with a mechanical and I will take precautions to keep them from opening in flight. You should be totally confident in your equipment and if you are use what you have that confidence in.

Too funny!! From what I understand quitting chew is tougher then cigarettes. So I can see why MT and not MT is so fun knee! LOL I smoked for 20 plus years, as of this July 22nd I will be tobacco free for 6 years. Best thing I ever did for myself, also the hardest thing I ever did for myself! I cant imagine if its tougher to quit chew just what one would need to do to stop. BTW, im a proud quitter! LOL GBA

Commie Here is some thoughts about a fixed 3 or even 4 blade head versus a 2 inch Mechanical head. You know that sliver you mentioned, it does not stay a silver through hide and meat. It opens up so much you can nearly put 4 fingers in it without spreading the hide by force. 3 blades fixed heads cant do that no matter what or how many cutting surfaces it has. I took 2 pieces of vinyl and lightly stretched them in wood frames. I shot one with slick tricks, love this head! And one with a Killzone, love this head better. I then laid them down flat over a kitchen trash can. Took a bowl of long, not broken, cooked linguine spaghetti and laid it across the holes. The 3 blade hole allowed water to run out at first and then plugged up with spaghetti. That little sliver you mentioned poured the spaghetti through the 2 inch slice into the trash can. This is the major difference between little bitty fixed heads and a big slice no matter where it hits. It was a fun experiment and it sold me on choice/type of heads to use, specially on big bodied animals such as elk. GBA

JACK, a lot of that would depend on how heavy the arrow is. The most important thing to understand is if your going to shoot any kind of mechanical that opens out to 2 inches or better you HAVE to have a heavy arrow to push that wide cutting head through. Otherwise you will loose penetration. But yes, a 500 grain arrow or greater tipped with a mechanical head will blow through even elk at 100 yards. GBA

Jeff knows I shoot a heavy FOC. But my reasons are not because I feel the penetration is better. All things equal in weight, and I believe this is what JACK is asking about, my experiments leave me with two arrows, one at heavy FOC and one at equal weight all the way through (tubed) both weighing in at 550 tipped with a 100 grain FP finished, giving me the exact same penetration in a virgin target. However I did find that heavier FOC did in fact make for tighter groups, but not by a lot. Out at 40 I'm stacking FOC arrows and ruining fletches. Same arrow tubed to same weight out at 40 there is a noticeable spread. I can only assume that’s because the tail end is much lighter and the arrow corrects much faster coming out of the bow. Spine might also have a play in this factor. The heavier FOC the weaker the spine becomes which in some cases with some bow set ups is what I refer to as a sweet spot. But a tubed arrow won’t change spine, at least not enough to cause dynamic changes because the tube gives with the arrow shaft as it flexes out of the bow. My theory only, I have no proof of this. I ended with a high FOC purely because I wanted the arrows (FMJ’s 340’s) that I prefer just about as heavy as I could make them. So at 28 inches I have a 100 grain brass insert and tip it with a 100 grain BH of choice. I could reduce the insert weight and use a heavier BH but at this point they only make my choice in BH in 100 grains. The next step up would be to go to dangerous game FMJ’s at 17.7 grains per inch. My penetration might be a touch deeper as that overall set up would be right at 600 grains “without” a brass insert for FOC. They would fly pretty well right out of the box as is too. One last note: The 100 grain brass inserts are glued in with the epoxy that comes from the FMJ manufacturers. JB weld would be a good choice too. There is a reason hit inserts are epoxy in and not superglue in. Superglue can and does on occasion break loose on hard impacts which aids in damage to the BH end of the arrows. I use epoxy and the BAR collar and im blowing these arrows threw plywood with zero damage to the shaft end. However my fletches were taking a beating! LOL GBA

Your certainly welcome Jeff. can you tell us your thoughts so far on the fire knocks for those of us that have never played around with lighted knocks? How are they turned on and off? Do they come on at the shot and turn off by themselves? How much better do you feel the visibility is when you shoot them? I mentioned to Jeff my brother shoots a lighted knock of some kind but had no idea how long the light stayed on. When I asked him why he was curious about it he said he shot at a nice buck but hit a tree from his tree stand about 10 feet off the ground. The light was still on two mornings in a row and it led him to his tree stand like a small beacon. ha ha ha LOL GBA

My buddies point was taken longer ago than I thought. I just called him to confirm what had happened. It’s been over 6 years. He had the same thing happen to him at first. He lost all his points, they didn’t show up, he called fish and game and fixed the issue except his loyalty points. He just got his loyalty points back after five years. So you won’t lose them all unless you don’t apply for 5 years. I would still call to make sure you still have them. GBA

I will tell you what happened to a buddy of mine 2 years ago that lives out of state. He put in for the Arizona draw for both Antelope and Elk with something like 8 bonus points for each including loyalty points. However he mailed both applications and the correct amount in a check in the same envelope and as usual he was last minute so there was no time for F&G to help him correct his error. As a result he lost ALL of his bonus points for both species! He has griped about Arizona F&G ever sense, not that I blame him. I think its a BS rule. So unfortunately If that follows suit with what happened to my buddy I will say yes, your bonus points are zeroed even for missing one application year. Like Flatlander said, give them a call but I think your going to find you lost all your bonus points. please post up and lets us know what you find out. I am pulling for you and hope you get your points restored. GBA

Pac8541, Great bow, I have one I bought in 2005. It is now my backup behind my 2011 Invasion. Actually a heavier arrow will require less offset/helical. With 150gn head you should have a decent amount of FOC but for elk I prefer a little more and with that short of an arrow it would give you a little more momentum down range. The Arizona easy Fletcher has a built in helical that should be good with the set up you plan to use. I like 2 inch blazers, never have tried ST300's. I will be playing around with that this summer. PM sent. GBA

Maverick351, I understood what you were referring to and Im telling you that you remove the insert from your math equation on HIT inserts when their glued in with epoxy centered of the shaft. At that point tolerances inside the ID of the shaft and outside of the insert are no longer an issue no matter what the stack up min and max tolerances are. It is taken up by the epoxy. This goes for any arrow with HIT insert technology and this will make each arrow the same in your quiver from one to the next. After that then your BH or FP shanks ( unthreaded portion) will come into play. Yes archery shops use super glue to speed things up. I say there isn't a problem for normal inserts that butt up against the end of the arrow shafts or for fletching. But I will tell you its a HUGE no no for any arrow that uses HIT inserts!! Superglue does not hold the insert center and can break loose because it does not glue the insert in all the way around, the glue is too thin. So on impact the insert breaks loose and it can cause the end of the arrow to mushroom or split. Normal inserts that butt up against the end of the shaft stay glued in place as the shaft supports the insert. Does that make sense? This help address the OP original question. Use epoxy on hit inserts, use the BAR collars or foot the arrows or go to a completely different arrow. Im now looking at the EX PileDrivers as I can get a small diameter arrow with IMO a better insert design to protect the end of the arrow. If I can add brass insert for more weight and better FOC they look to be like a deadly combination at nearly half the cost of my 340 FMJ's. GBA

Welcome to the site Jeff! Have you ever considered building your own arrows?? I enjoy it and like playing around with different ideas, wraps and fletches. Anyway, good luck with your quest, and enjoy the site. GBA