bchoitz

Nice Bull, Congratulations on a successful hunt. (2x) Bret

It's a bit far for me so I'll plan on NOT making the drive up unless I harvest a deer Friday AM... Bret Area 35B

Younghunter, I have the Dec35B rifle tag and will be in the area during the first weekend, Dec15-19. If your interested in coming by, I currently intend to be in the area accessed north of the airport. Sorry, I can't be more specific, I've never camped in that area so don't know exactly where I'll set up. I'll be in a white 1993 Wrangler w/black soft top, tent camping. Drop by if your close, I'll take any help you are willing to give, including information about other areas within the unit, or just stop in and say hi. Bret

Bill, Getting old is the name of the game! The oldest one wins! Death to the losers! Ok, maybe not, but getting old does beat the alternative, and when it no longer does, then I hope God is ready for me. Bret

I'm an instrumentation technician for APS at the Palo Verde Power Plant. I help make the BIG GLOW-IN-THE-DARK deer out by the nuke plant that you have all heard about. That's how I make enough to feed my family of 6, in my "spare" time I am an Arizona Swimming official, I watch my kids at swimming, soccer, basketball, and whatever else the may be doing. Bret P.S. - Cocran, my 13.8KV Outlet is acting flaky, can you come look at it?

Good statement Runningbird. That is really the root of this debate, some people stand to lose a very hard but satisfying way of life if all grazing on public land is stopped. What we do need to remeber is that we are only talking about ranchers who graze animals on public lands, not those who persue this way of life on private lands. Bret

This issue is one that evokes very strong emotions in most of us, as you can see by the responses so far in this thread. I've done a little reading on the topic in the last couple of days, and the results I found suprised me a little. First, I am not a proponent of grazing cattle on public lands. I believe that the public lands are for the benefit of the majority of all citizens, and that most people do not want to see cattle in the forest when they go. As a hunter I believe the quaility of my hunt is better when I don't see any cattle or high cattle use areas. Common sense tells me that the more available biomass that is consumed by cattle the less that is available to wildlife. That being said, I was actually surprised by what I found; See breif summary of article on "Effects of spring elk grazing on summer cattle forage" near the bottom of this link: http://www.animalrangeextension.montana.ed...02/NutrConf.htm Also the following article which is fairly representative of the information available on this subject: http://oregonstate.edu/dept/eoarcunion/Daa...ranWSASAS03.pdf These two are from retired wildlife biologist Steve Gallizioli of Fountain Hills, and are worth reading: http://www.rangebiome.org/cowfree/gallizio...ildlife1976.htm http://www.rangebiome.org/cowfree/gallizio...grazing1977.htm The above articles seem to support the idea that some grazing is not catastophic to the rangeland, and that elk will prefer areas that have been previously grazed, but no studies could be found that compared the effects of cattle on undisturbed areas of similar habitat over a long period of time, even conclusions from studies within the Three Bar Wildlife area are not readily available. The Three Bar Wildlife area has been ungrazed since 1947. For some insight into the ranchers mindset on this issue, read about Kit and Sherry Delaney on the Diamond Bar Ranch: http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/summ...iamondbar.shtml or from the opposite point of view: http://www.wildernesswatch.org/newsletters/march%2004/ For some background on this issue, read about "Understanding "Fee Lands" and Vested Water Rights" about midway down the page at: http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/2004...e_removal_s.htm Excerpt: When a water right vests, it becomes permanent in ownership and inheritable. The conditions required under the permit, having already been satisfied, no longer apply. A vested water right can be acquired in three basic ways: 1. Proof that the water was being put to beneficial use prior to the advent of statutory water law, or 2. A determination by a court as in a water adjudication setting forth decreed rights, or 3. By issuance of a water certificate issued by the state water engineer after satisfying the requirements set forth in the permit. When a water right vests, it loses its temporary and conditional status, and now becomes permanent and inheritable. When the beneficial use of the lands for livestock grazing, (the usufruct) loses its temporary and conditional status, the beneficial use becomes a fee. Conclusion Under the prior appropriation water doctrine, the states were given lawful (ownership) control of the non-navigable waters within their exterior boundaries and complete control of the disposition of those waters into private ownership. Prior appropriation water law embodies the concept that a person applying for water can claim the use of all land necessary to put the water to beneficial use Catron county (NM) ranchers seem to take this idea that the land is theirs to control and use as they see fit a bit farther than most, but the general belief is still there in many other ranchers who utilize public land. "Because we live and work here, we have more rights than the city boys do when it comes to this land." Some food for thought. Bret

Wonderful Buck and pictures! Great job Kristen!

Casey, The Smile is bigger than the antlers! Good job Bret

Good point. Hunters education is a requirement in many states, but it is up to the state to decide. Arizona has taken the stand that we will reward you for taking the course with a "bogus Point" but not making the course a requirement for getting a license, probably because they are afraid that hunters will scream bloody murder for trampling on their rights. I have had hunters safety classes 4 times so far.. First in Colorado (Isaac Walton Leauge) at age 10?, again in Colorado at a VFW to allow participation in an NRA rifle program at age 13?, again in Colorado during Junior High School (yes we shot in the Gym!). The last time I took a course was here in Arizona a few years ago because my son was also taking the class. I think it is high time that Arizona make Hunter Safety a REQUIREMENT for getting a license. Bret

Yes, both issues affect our public lands, but cattle are not a substitute for natural fires which are also a necessary part of a healthy eco system. This is one arguement where each side is not going to budge, at least where this board is concerned. Bret

I'm in the crowd that believes that grazing on public land is not beneficial to wildlife, and generally not a good use of our public lands. The Texas hill country is a good example of how overgrazing can destroy the land. This land is virtually all private property, and has been overgrazed for many years. It is now very thick with Prickly pear and many of the springs that once were perennial springs are dried up or flow only intermittently due to the water runnning off instead of slowly soaking in to feed the springs. As this si private land, the owner is of course free to manage it as he sees fit. The topic discussed above is concerning grazing on public lands, and wether this is detrimental to wildlife. Of course it is. Every mouthful of forage that cow eats is one less mouthful for an elk. The ranchers do ensure there is water for their cattle to drink, and this does benefit wildlife, but as was pointed out previously, that cow is also destroying the vegetation that would have allowed the water sources deer and elk to remain, and the reduced vegetation increases run-off which keeps the springs dry. I am sure there are sportsmans' groups such as RMEF that would gladly work on water source improvements if the ranchers were no longer given grazing rights. I am sure that the negative effects of grazing far outweigh the positive benefits that the ranchers provide. It is sad that some rnachers would lose their way of life if grazing on public lands was eliminated, but that would be for the greater benefit of the general population. They may end up going the way of the professional buffalo hunter. Bret

Really nice deer you got there Mason! I can't wait to see the field photos! I hopw you will feed our need and give us the story that goes with him! Give all the rest of us some hope on being lucky too! Bret

I don't think they have a discussion forum, but try this link: http://www.javelinahunter.com/ Bret

Thanks for the Link, it was an informative article. I have not seen that type of traffic areas on the west side of 35B, but I did feel "uncomfortable" the one time I went south of Washington Camp on the east side. I have also heard a firsthand account of a guy getting run off the road by truckloads of presumably illegals runnign fast at night with no lights, and people hanging off the truck. Makes you at least stop and think. I will now at least get the number for BP and program it into the cell phone. If there are any Border patrol agents reading this forum, I'd appreciate a heads-up on areas to avoid in 35B. Matt, there are elk in Colorado, and plenty of them, though not as big as the elk in AZ. I lived there for the first 29 years of my life, and that is where I took up hunting. My experience is the elk behave differently in Co than in Arizona, and they are a little more difficult to find, but the quality of the hunts I had there can not be matched by Arizona where there is also no place that a road does not exist. As with all hunting, proper scouting is the key to success, and it is difficult to scout in a different state unless you have lots of time and the cash to make all those trips. Bret

35B for me! I LOVE this cold weather. I hope it stays cold for the next two weeks! Coosfan, (and anybody else..) if you get to 35B before the 19th, I'll be camped somewhere along the road that leasds to Paja Verde Tank, or on the Flat spot above Lower Paloma Dam. I have a White Jeep Wrangler with Black soft top. Drop by and we'll chat. I'll be back in the area for a few days after Christmas with my wife, she drew a tag there as well, but can't come with me opening weekend. She wants to pick my daughter up at the airport when she returns from school I guess she doesn't have her priorities straight. Bret

Thank you, and haappy thanksgiving to all of you as well. Mine was wonderful, Turkey and ham with friends, went scouting my area with my 12 year old, then shooting with my wife, and finally to Sportsmans Warehouse for more brass and powder. I can't wait for the Cabela's to be built! Just 2 and a half more weeks till December 16th! Bret

MegaHunter, I've read your post twice so that I don't over-react, or read more into it than I should. My first question is whether the game warden that ran up the middle of the canyon on a quad was on an established road. If he was, it seems like a reasonable thing for him to do. If he was not on a road, I would make a formal complaint in writing, but he may have had a valid reason to do so, such as a report of a wildlife violation, poaching, etc. If he was waiting for you, I am fairly sure it was not just because he did not like the way you looked. They are paid to enforce the statutes relating to game management. They may have had reports which put them on your trail, whether those reports were founded or not. (Do you have any vindictive enemies?) A lot of times the reaction they get from the hunter will determine how they continue to treat you. If you are confrontational, they are much less likely to see your point of view, or even care what your point of view is. You probably should not have been threatened, and I would make the appropriate complaints to the AzG&F and send it to the directors office, BUT limit this complaint to the incident you described in the field, and save the anger over the management policies for a different time. IF you start in on the management policies and how you feel they are destroying hunting in Arizona, they are much less likely to care what your complaint is regarding the enforcement officer, and they will most likely feel his treatment of you was within reason. the enforcement officers I've met in the field have been courteous, and even willing to talk about the area and what they have seen if you approach them or respond to them in a friendly manner, even when they are there to check out a report of a violation or problem, as happened to me when they were very curious about my white Wrangler during the Jr. Elk hunt in 6A. This is just my 2 cents worth, and it's possible that I'm way off base, and this Game warden was just pissed that he did not get drawn and wanted to screw up everyone else?s hunt because of it. Or maybe the G&F has an APB out to look for you in the field and hassle you whenever possible because you have complained about the way they manage our resources. I hope this is not the case, and I choose to live my life under the assumption that they are just trying to do their job and go home to their wife and kids without bullet holes in them from angry hunters. Bret

Dodger2, Sounds like a wonderful hunt to me. I'd trade the time in the field with my dad for a filled tag any day. Get in some range time for those critters next year, but get that Bow tuned and your grunter ready for next month first! Good luck in December. What unit are you going to? Are you taking your dad again? Bret

256 Win mag was designed as a pistol cartridge, seems a little light as a rifle cartridge, but as has been stated it would be ok for short ranges, 100 Yards or so. Bret

The link worked for me today! Thanks.

Redbonedawg, Congratulations on your successful hunt and to your father as well. Good stalking to get a 117 Yard shot on a bedded coues. Are you going to get him mounted? Bret

Younghunter, Once again, let me apologize personally to you for my previous posting. There are always two sides to every story, and I should know that and reserve judgement. It's a failing of mine. If you learn from the negative impact this had on the other hunter hunter and consider this while in the field, you will do all right. We have all had incidents we are not proud of in our past, me included. And right now I am sure my skeletons are worse than yours. I've learned, you will too. Keep hunting safely and courteously. Bret

The link told me "The file you requested is not available" Can you summarize the information? Yes you can or no you can't? Bret

Jack, Nice buck, and good story. I share your frustration with other hunters being in that "secret" spot. It is so hard to know where others will hunt until the actual season opens. It would appear that you rebounded from the blow fairly well. If you don't mind my asking, what portion of the unit were you in? From the pictures, it appears you are in the western portion of the unit, in the desert portion between Providencia and Cumero canyons? That is where I plan to start my hunt in December. You guys have me so excited to go! I can hardly wait! Only 3 more weeks! Bret