CHD

Hey Mike, Do I actually see one of your highly-opinionated tongue lashings that is not directed at me? Holy cow. Very good point. Chris Darnell

Hey Cat, Might as well discuss pigs on this forum. Fish are mentioned here quite frequently as well. Chris Darnell

What's the greatest number of bucks that you have seen in a bachelor group? When is the latest time of year that you have seen a bachelor band? For me, it's 3 bucks and the end of November. Chris Darnell

Your discussion about hesitant (and smart!!!!) older bucks reminds me of my first deer hunt some 29 years ago. It happened on the White Sands Missile Range in southern New Mexico. My dad and I had hunted the opener without seeing a buck. On the second day, we hiked away from the road and looked at some great country without seeing a deer. In the afternoon, we jumped 3 or 4 does and a buck while I was plodding along staring at my feet. My dad shouted "shoot the buck" while firing at the bounding muleys and I managed to squeeze off one shot at a doe with my Winchester Model 94 .30-30. No hits. The deer bounded thru a saddle and we eventually followed them. When we got up into the top of the saddle, I looked off to the right and saw what looked just like the shape of a deer hiding behind a bush (one of the few in the desert landscape). I stopped and said "look, that looks like a deer". My dad said "no, I don't see anything". This went on a couple of times. Finally, the mature buck decided that he had been discovered, and broke and attempted to bounce away to safety. That's when he met my .30-30 bullet fired from the fastest draw in the west (at age 11) at less than 50 yards! The moral of this story is.................mature bucks (even inexperienced ones!!!) will hold tight and let you walk right by them. Can you even imagine the number of big ol bucks that I have hiked right past in my 29 years of pursuing them? Can you imagine the bucks that I have seen because I was prepared for this behavior at an early age? Chris Darnell

Let me ask you guys and gals a question. When you jump and really spook a mature buck, does he wave that flag as he runs away or does he keep it tucked in? Chris Darnell

Here are some questions for you southwestern guys and gals. At what dates or range of dates (assuming a normal moisture year) do Coues deer in Arizona and New Mexico do the following: Complete the growth of their antlers (the large bucks)? Strip their velvet? Drop their antlers (the large bucks)? Being mainly a muley guy (and a Colorado one), I am quickly running out of things to contribute to this forum. However, realizing this is a Coues forum, here is a fairly decent muley tip if any of you are interested. If you are looking for a GIANT Rocky Mtn muley in a unit that is somewhat drawable and CLOSE TO HOME, try the Zuni Mountains (unit 10) in New Mexico. Top end Zuni bucks are as big as large strip and Kaibab bucks, with heavy 200"+ frames and mid 30's spreads. Lots of nontypicals. THIS IS NOT WELL KNOWN! Not many in the book because they tend to grow just a few kickers. The unit is RUGGED and THICK with a low deer density. Lots of great country. I'm sure the drought has hampered antler growth here as in most places. Any of you guys that think a 7-year-old public land muley is dumb and easy will certainly bring back at least a 34" 9x8 scoring 220, right? Chris Darnell

Yep, there it is Ernesto, right before my eyes. I had found the fawning info after I posted (and subsequently deleted my question), but I must have scrolled right past the antler stuff. Maybe toooo much whiskey last night? I am trying to get a handle on the timing of key things for Coues deer in order to gain a better understanding of them. It is very hard for me to get into the mindset of key events being about 2 months later than northern deer. Northern deer (whitetails and muleys) fawn mostly in early June, reach peak antler growth about the first week in August, rub in the first half of September, rut beginning about Nov 1 and peaking about Thanksgiving, shed in January-February, and start growing noticeably in April or so. Based on the Coues info on this site (and it is a good one!), I would say that the velvet turns from green to brown (the end of the growth period) in early to mid September. Is this correct? Do the desert muleys in southern AZ & NM follow the same timing of life cycles as Coues? Hawkeye says so. Is there any evidence that Coues deer in the northern reaches of their range in AZ have life cycles a little earlier than the far southern AZ Coues deer? Any input will be appreciated, particularly yours Amanda. Thanks. Chris Darnell

I am not as experienced with this topic as many others on this site, but you all are welcome to what I have. I hunted 32 last December. I began hunting on the fourth day of the season. The weather was probably more severe than usual with standing snow at the higher elevations when I arrived. It stayed cool and cloudy for much of my hunt, but warmed up during the last week of December. The deer were very active in the AM and PM, with some activity during the middle of the day. Although the rut is triggered mainly by TIME OF YEAR, I believe that cool, overcast weather gets things going sooner. On the fifth day of the season, I watched a nice buck (maybe 3.5 years old and 90") horn the brush and steal a couple does from a yearling who was posturing and thinking that he was something to contend with. It was just too early in the hunt to take him. Many of the small doe groups had younger bucks messing around with them at this time also. I watched a 90"+ buck make a scrape about December 25, and saw him the next day following 2 does across a bowl. He was serious and gettin' after it. I watched several doe groups the last week of the month, but the rutting activity (even with younger bucks) seemed to have stalled. It was a big disappointment. It was kind of strange for it to have died out after going so strong the few days before x-mas. Chris Darnell

Hey Amanda & Audsley, I will take you up on your offer of discussion on this cold winter night. I really don't have an opinion on whether moon phases are important or not. I quit trying to figure this out and formulate patterns years ago. If others believe in this, more power to them. Whatever works for the individual and gives them confidence is fine with me. I have been on a lot of hunts for many species all over the west in the last 30 years. It never seems to fail that there is a full moon during my long awaited hunt. What do I do about it? NOTHING! My contention on moon phases is that I am going to focus on mornings and evenings particularly hard anyway, whether full or no moon. Depending on the weather, time of year, terrain, and hunting season pressure I will determine the viability of hunting during the midday hours. So why does the moon phase matter? If it's a full moon, should you stay on the couch and watch TV all day? Should you head for the whiskey shop and get liquored up instead? If the moon is under foot, should you hunt any harder than you normally do? Heck no, you should be hunting hard regardless! Get out there and GIVE IT ALL YOU GOT at all times, regardless of the moon. Hunt seriously and intensely at all times if you want a great animal! You may get liver cancer next month, so hunt hard and enjoy it while you can! Plenty of great animals have been harvested during odd moon phases. Most hunts in the west are less than a week long. You usually are not given a choice in hunting based on moon phases anyway. If you want the hunt, you get whichever moon phase it is. If a season is a month long, I prefer to base my scheduled one week or so on PREDICTED ANIMAL HABITS AND BEHAVIORS and not the moon phase. I have a buddy that used his 10 Colorado preference points (10 years worth - a lot of pressure!) this year to draw a 5-day muley hunt in a great unit. He immediately starting worrying about the full moon several months before the season. My response to him was SO WHAT, YOU ALREADY HAVE THE TAG ANYWAY!!! You had no choice in the dates if you wanted the hunt, and you have no control over the moon. Ignore it and don't even worry about it. It is out of your control! He ended up seeing 13 bucks over 170 and a couple over 190 because of the weather and the rut, and narrowly missed a 210 nontypical. 15 years ago I took a nice muley in Nevada when he got up to feed on tall sagebrush at noon after a full moon. At the time I thought okay, he was in his bed at first light due to intensive feeding all night. He just got hungry at midday, earlier than usual due to his early breakfast. The state biologist even suggested the same thing. But I have yet to see this pattern again in other deer on a regular basis. I agree wholeheartedly with you Amanda. I hunt based solely on predicted animal habits and behavioral patterns, and nothing else. A spooked buck ain't gonna come out during daylight even with the moon's blessing, and a rutting buck doesn't care about the moon because his mind is on other things! I hunt the same regardless of the moon phase. I give it all I got and hope for the best. Chris Darnell

On my hunt last year I watched from a long distance as a good buck visited a scrape located under a large mesquite tree. He walked several hundred yards across very open, flat terrain to get to it. He spent a few minutes there pawing dirt and such. He even licked and rubbed the overhead branch just like eastern whitetails do. I didn't think it was worth waiting over this one scrape for him to come back during daylight hours. I just didn't think that rutting Coues deer are as scrape oriented and habitual as eastern whitetails. Do any of you hunt scrapes? Is it worth the wait? Chris Darnell

Here is another one from the same unit 32 December hunt last year. I hunted the Turkey Creek/Black Butte/Parsons Grove area. Lots of Coues and lots of coati's. Later in the hunt around Christmas, I began checking doe herds that I had located over the previous week. One group of about 6 or 8 does and fawns was pretty predictable and stayed in a small area bedding and feeding. One afternoon, I sat on a ridge overlooking a hillside above some small feeder canyons. This herd got up and moved downhill out of the trees, crossed a fence and moved over a rise into a feeder canyon out of my sight. The wind was in my favor and they never knew I was there. A few minutes after they went out of sight, one of the does came screaming back over the rise, running full out. She was moving so fast and low to the ground that I thought for a minute that she was a lion. No other deer came back with her. She ran full tilt several hundred yards back to the fence and suddenly stopped. She stared intently back up the hillside that they had just come down and had bedded on for the day. I looked hard, and down from the hillside came another doe who walked up to the first doe. The two of them together moseyed back over the rise to join the other deer. It took me a minute or two to fully realize what the heck I had seen. The first doe had gotten all the way over the rise, and had suddenly realized that her friend had been left behind! She quickly went back and found her before she became permanently separated! Perhaps these two were siblings or mother/daughter. Am I reading too much into this incident, or are these deer really that smart? Can they really be that attached to each other? Chris Darnell

Okay gentlemen. Calm down and relax a little bit. Holy cow. Ernesto & Bowhntr - By the term 'mediocre' I meant SIZE OF THE ANTLERS, not status in the world of living creatures. There are little bucks, big bucks, and mediocre (medium sized) bucks of all deer species. My Coues deer hunting ability is mediocre at best, so a mediocre buck is probably what I would have ended up with. As far as my opinion of these magnificent animals, I HAVE ALREADY MADE THAT VERY CLEAR!!! Refer to my first post on this forum as well as another under the topic titled "Interesting Coues Stories" for my true beliefs about these incredible animals. My message under the topic "Tagged One" was the truth. I am really into QUALITY big game hunting and spend waaaaaay too much money on tags and gear. I really feel good about the things I support financially though, particularly wildlife conservation. All of my messages under this topic are NOT TRUE. I was being VERY sarcastic in my joking. Why? Some of you were trying sooooooo hard to make me a bad guy, so I thought I would give you one! I thought it was funny as heck. No I don't have a new truck ordered (I can't afford one since I spend all my money on big game tags!). My present truck is 4+ years old and will be with me a while. No I don't have millions, I am a working stiff the same as the rest of you guys. It was only 1.5 years ago that I could afford this computer. I make a decent salary, but not a six-figure one. I have a low overhead because I have no wife and no kids. Therefore I have more to spend on QUALITY TROPHY HUNTS than most. This is important to me now because chronic health problems may prevent me from hunting in future years. In 1991, I harvested a nice muley in western Wyoming that took me 2 days to pack out (on my back) due to the brutally steep mountains. I ended up having to have knee surgery after that. Know where the meat went? I donated it to the Casper, Wyoming rescue mission. I donated many animals to the rescue mission while living there. I harvested a great bull elk this September in Utah on a very expensive tag. I gave the meat to a recently divorced single mom with 3 kids. I ended up with another tag with a time frame that conflicted with the 32 November season this year. I rated the hunts equal challenge, equally enjoyable, with the chance of a trophy equal for both. The 32 hunt required more time due to a much longer drive, and the 32 hunt had many more hunters. These things were the basis of my decision. And yes, I do have a 31 javelina tag, and I will certainly be there opening morning searching for one of the neat critters and supporting the Safford economy! Lets get back to deer talk! Chris Darnell

Hey Peckl1, You got through to me man. I am crushed and broken. I now see the light. I am going to change my ways. The thought of me wasting one mediocre Coues deer buck is what did it. Holy cow, a mediocre Coues deer buck (which I was sure to get on my 32 tag) weighs about 90 lbs, right? That would yield about 40 lbs of edible meat, particularly if I cut the riblets out. That is certainly enough to feed a family of six poor Arizonan's for at least a year, right? As a result of my recent introspection, I am seriously disenchanted with myself for missing this due to my own selfishness. Tomorrow morning, I am going to go to my accountant and cash in all my millions. I will immediately donate all of my worth to the needy, low-income citizens of Safford, Arizona. Whoops, I better give half to the Klondyke citizens, all 3 of them. Chris Darnell

Wwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! This place is starting to sound like MM.com. I just found out that I drew a javelina tag for unit 31 also. But my brand spankin' new $45,000 2004 Ford turbodiesel pickup with ALL THE WHISTLES AND BELLS is scheduled to be delivered on the opener! Darn! Also, three days later I have to drive it to Utah to bid on a auction muley tag that will probably go for $5,000 or $6,000! Looks like I may have to waste another tag and not make it to Arizona at all this season. Oh well. Chris Darnell

Hey Rembrandt, Didn't mean to cause you mental anguish. Holy cow. Think you will survive it? My idea of a backup choice is SECOND choice. Was it yours? This may make you feel a little worse (I''ll try to sugar coat this as much as possible), but let me explain myself further. I spent $8,000 this year on big game tags. I am budgeting the same amount for next year. I usually spend in the thousands for tags each year. I have a nasty habit of buying auction tags in Utah that are handled by RMEF, Mule Deer Foundation, Sportsman for Habitat, etc... because the good ones are hard to draw anymore due to the reasons you listed. The auction tags are tax deductible, and the $$$ go to animal conservation and pro-hunting organizations. I also buy expensive landowner tags (the $$$ go to poor ranchers), and I have spent a fortune on nonresident license fees in all western states. I also spend many $$$ on my trips suppporting the local economies in the form of motels, fuel, meals, etc... I have a great deal of expensive hunting gear. I have worn out $30,000 (now $40,000) trucks scouting and hunting. In summary, my financial contribution to hunting and ANIMAL CONSERVATION is staggering. I think I have some $20k muleys on my living room wall! Because I apply for many hunts in several states each year, I sometimes have to eat a tag due to hunt time-frame conflicts or acquiring a better tag and having a fixed amount of time off work available. Two years ago, I surrendered a muley tag in Utah and let the Utah DWR keep the $408 just so i could retain my bonus points. Believe me when I tell you that I have eaten some great tags!!! But that is part of the trophy hunting game. Why don't you write the AZGFD a letter and suggest that they allow tag returns and keep an active list of applicants so they can reissue them? I tried to return another tag one year and they told me to get lost. I believe Utah will re-issue tags.. There is another reason that I didn't go, but if I give it we will probably have a big hairy fight on this forum! You might be able to guess it, though. Given my incredible financial contribution to hunting, wildlife conservation, and local economies, ask me now if I feel guilty about eating the 32 November tag! Chris Darnell PS - I hope you weren't trying to equate me with animal rights activists!

Hey Bret, Do you guys actually hunt fish in Arizona? Holy cow, I have been missing something by hunting Coues deer and muleys. Are you suggesting that Coues deer hunters focus on rivers and lakes? If that's true, I have been hunting them in the wrooooooong places. Chris Darnell

Hi Amanda, The buck was not a yearling. I hunted that spot off and on for two weeks and only saw that buck the one time. I probably wouldn't have seen him at all except for the rut. He had water, adequate feed, and some cover all in a small area. I have seen three 3-legged deer in my life. One muley, an eastern whitey, and that coues buck. All were making a good living. On the surface, it appears that a 3-legged deer would be easy to kill and it is a wonder that they have survived. However, looking deeper, I think that a 3-legged deer IS ACTUALLY HARDER TO KILL than a regular one! Why? Because they know their limitations. They are obviously "hiders" and not "runners", right? They live in a very small home territory, and probably have nerves of steel. You might have to kick them in the ribs to get them up during daylight hours. I have seen pictures of deer with an injury on one side that grew an abnormal antler on the OPPOSITE side. I have read that it is common for this to happen. This coues buck had a symmetrical rack. How do you reckon he lost his leg? A birth defect? Injury as a fawn? A compound fracture that caused the leg to eventually fall off? The stub was very smooth and was healed over with no hanging skin or protruding bones. Chris Darnell PS - I have another neat story from the same hunt that I will post in a few days.

Hey CMC, Took a look at your great pics of some fantastic country. Thanks! Although I had a tag for 32 November this year, I chose not to use it. I just wasn't in the mood for a long drive just to fight the crowds this year. I live in western Colorado. Let me ask you (and others) a question. I have heard from a couple of people that it is not safe to camp out when hunting the units along the border such as 35 and 36. I talked to one hunter who had a constant stream of illegals walking past his tent all night long on some nights. Although they did him no harm, it was very uncomfortable because he was alone. Another guy told me a story about a couple guys that had the crap beat out of them and their truck stolen by a group of illegals. I have heard that the drug trade there is equally dangerous. Are these kind of incidents commonplace down there? Is it really dangerous to camp there for a lone guy such as me? I would sure like to apply for those units next year. Chris Darnell

Hey CMC, Thanks for sharing your story. Congrats on a neat buck. Sounds like you had a geat hunt with your brother. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and you should be too. Most folks in the world NEVER get an opportunity like you just had! I see a couple phrases in your message ("I got suckered into..." and "Oh well, meat in the freezer...") that bring back memories of issues that I struggled with and came to terms with over a decade ago. My philosophy now is to not be sorry and regretful about harvesting any animal. The only thing that really matters is WHAT I THINK. I will not make excuses for any animal that I harvest. Hunting is about being thrilled with my animal. To harvest one and then be unhappy or defensive about it kind of defeats the purpose of what I am in this for. Good luck in your future hunting. Chris Darnell

Hey Bret M. (Bullwidgeon), Thanks for the great tip about finding December bucks. Here are some further questions about your tip, if you are interested in giving answers. If this type of terrain/vegetation is good for December, is it good for the October and November hunts as well? Why or why not? Are the ocotillo ridges a good location because of the feed? I understand that ocotillo is a favorite of coues deer. Also, are the bucks there in December just because of the nearby does (rut) who like the feed there and regularly live there, and the bucks normally live elsewhere? Do deer prefer to bed in the ocotillo or the mesquite flats, or are these just feeding areas? Any input would be greatly appreciated since I am somewhat of a beginner at this. Chris Darnell

Thanks everyone for the great input. Cervidnut, I hope we again have the pleasure of your involvement in this forum! Believe it or not, I printed out this information and added it to my "Coues notebook" that I have been compiling. This site hopefully will continue to assist in shaving years off of my learning curve since I am not able to spend any time around these fascinating animals during the off-season. Chris Darnell

These questions are for any of you who are experienced with aging Coues bucks and comparing their age with their rack size. Amanda, perhaps you could offer some insight as well? Hunters and biologists refer to "mature" muleys as those that are 5 or more years old. That is the age when the size of the rack reaches it's full proportions and doesn't show large increases in size in subsequent years. It usually takes at least 5 years for a muley buck to grow a B & C class rack. Typically, a muley buck will maintain the large rack in years, 5,6, and 7, and generally starts regressing (growing a smaller rack) in year 8 or so. Depending on genetics, latititude/harshness of winter, and feed, some bucks don't start regressing until 10 or so. I have heard over the years that Eastern/Northern whitetails grow much more quickly, with 4 and even 3 year old bucks of B & C size in areas with good genetics. I once read that Milo Hanson's world record typical taken in Canada was only 3 or 4 years old. My questions, of course, relate to Coues bucks. Here they are. Does the term "mature buck" officially refer to one that is at least 5 years old? Can a buck be 3 or 4 years old and have a 90-inch rack in Arizona? What is the minimum age that you would expect a buck to have in order to make B & C at 110 points typical net score? At what age do Coues bucks typically start regressing in Arizona? What is the typical lifespan of a Coues buck in Arizona assuming death by natural causes? I would expect it to be several years longer than deer in northern climates. I appreciate any input you folks might have on this subject, since I have been wondering about this for quite some time. Chris Darnell

Hey Rembrant, Did you even consider that maybe I was the one throwing all those punches? LOL! Seriously though, here is an EXTREME example of what I am talking about. Maybe some of you read this also. If it is true and I understand the facts correctly, it is UNBELIEVABLE. In the newspaper last week, there was an article about 3 guys hunting elk in the backcountry of northwest Wyoming a couple weeks ago. Evidently, 2 of them starting bickering over which would shoot the first elk. The feud went on all day, and continued at camp that night. According to the article it reached the boiling point and one of them pulled out his gun and shot the other one in the knee. The bullet cut his femoral artery, AND THE GUY BLED TO DEATH ON THE SPOT! Incredible! One man dies and the other goes to prison, all over a silly, pathetic competition that has no place in hunting. Incredible. The main point in my first message is not that deer are the ultimate creatures and worthy of worship, or that their feelings might get hurt, or that hunters should practice political correctness. Give me a break. I am talking about PEOPLE, not mule deer. My main point is that competition, egos, and narcissism HAVE NO PLACE IN HUNTING. The whole reason I hunt is to get entirely away from that nonsense that I have spent way too much time around in my life. The minor point in my message is that all game animals deserve some respect by hunters. This site continues to get better and better! Good work, Amanda! I envision a donation coming your way! Chris Darnell

Hey Amanda, Got my package the other day, including the new books and video. Already went thru the new Coues book, and will reserve questions and comments til later. I met you in '98 when I hunted the San Carlos. I am a 40 year old very experienced and successful trophy Rocky Mtn muley hunter, and presently live in western Colorado. I have harvested mature, big muleys all over the west, including the Strip. I am also a fairly new Coues deer hunter, having been on 4 unguided hunts in Arizona. Coues deer, like muleys, are a magnificent, beautiful, interesting, and challenging game animal. I am fascinated by them, and have considered moving to AZ to further my Coues deer education and to spend more time with the neat critters. The reason I am making this post is to hopefully discourage you and other "CW Regulars" from blasting muleys and labeling them as CARP deer. BELIEVE ME PEOPLE, I have been picked on, insulted, and belittled (and have fought back!!!) for mentioning my interest and great respect for Coues deer in front of muley hunters while living in Wyoming and Colorado for the last dozen years. I also have seen great debates (and fistfights) between bowhunters -vs- riflehunters, elk -vs- deer, muleys -vs- sheep, pronghorns are a joke, etc... for many more years. It gets very tiresome for me, and goes completely against WHAT I AM IN THIS FOR and what I believe. The point I am making is that I DESPISE snobbery, egos, elitism, and holier-than-thou attitudes in big game hunting. Man I am tired of this. I can't tell you how peed off and tired I am of this incredible nonsense. All of the big game animals that I have hunted and harvested are magnificent and worthy of respect. Obviously, some are more challenging than others due to a number of factors. The thing that I am really getting at is that I AM IN THIS FOR PERSONAL SATISFACTION ONLY. I really don't care what anybody else thinks about me or my trophies and hunting experiences. This thing is between me and the animals. I have entry's in B & C, but only to give credit to the ANIMAL. I urge you and other CW members to NOT LOWER YOURSELVES to the level of other IGNORANT hunters and to not refer to muleys as CARP deer. If you are better, more intelligent human beings than those who have belittled Coues deer and tried to reduce them to a lesser animal, prove it by refraining from taking it out on muleys. You will be better for it. Thanks for this website and discussion forum. If it continues to be excellent, I will continue to participate and to purchase products from you.