CHD

I am in total agreement with elkmaniac's statement that 'the only good lion is a dead lion'. Same goes for coyotes. Are we gonna raise deer or are we gonna raise deer predators??? Can't have good numbers of both. Both directly impact deer populations that my $$$ and efforts are trying to support. Also threaten my favorite hobby. Why would anybody that is a true deer hunter (a classic and HUGE American pastime) speak highly of a predator that will decimate a deer pop given the opportunity and is the flagship of the anti-hunters??? Last time I checked, the deer and pronghorns around the west are not sustaining their populations due to a number of factors. In fact, in many areas the pops are way down. The predator impact is much more noticeable now that pops are down. Studies have proven time and again that coyotes are responsible for a large percentage of fawn mortality. I have watched educated coyotes hang around doe antelope at fawning time waiting for an easy meal. I'm not sure that a lion kills a deer per week, but it is certainly a helluva lot of them. For trophy hunters especially, lions are heck on the older bucks because they both are reclusive and live in the same type of country. Right now more than ever, the deer and pronghorns need tighter predator control. If you doubt me, you oughtta take a look at what the wolves (ain't they in Arizona, now?) and grizzlies have done to the elk and moose pops in NW Wyoming. It ain't pretty. Arizona obviously has a HUGE lion problem, one that I wasn't aware of until recently. I don't have a problem with having a few lions, wolves, and grizzlies around, just don't let them have control of the entire ecosystem. FYI, here is the hidden agenda of the anti's. Stop lion hunting=lion pop grows large=lions eat all the deer=deer hunting stops because no game=we don't have to fight deer hunters directly to win this game. {EDITED - the paragraph that was here was removed by the moderator of this forum due to offensive content. The rest of this post remains unchanged} I had a real hard time posting under this thread because I resent the fact that there are 35 replies discussing lions while most threads about the magnificent Coues deer last less than 10. Chris

Holy cow, it's that time of year again. I have been wrestling with decisions in many states for many species for a couple months or so, and I can't seem to get any sleep, LOL. I always enjoy the application process, and put a lot of mental effort into my choices. Nothing like the excited anticipation of receiving drawing results! Sometimes it even goes my way! Which units and hunts are you going for this year? Due to my schedule, I think I will apply for an easier to draw December Coues tag 1st choice, perhaps 22, 27, or 24A. Nothing like getting away from work and people during Christmas. My second choice will probably be a unit south of Tucson during November, maybe 36C. Don't any of you even dare think about telling my muley buddies that I won't choose the strip first choice!!! Chris Darnell

Good job rallying the troops, Allen. How did it turn out?

Thanks for the info everyone. Sure didn't expect this much discussion. Yep, I have a magical power that allows me to produce a rattler just exactly where I'm afraid there is going to be one, LOL. Sounds like some of you might have the same ability? I keep a pair of snake-proof gaiters in my truck. I think I bought them from Cabela's. They are made of stiff cordura and are knee high. I haven't worn them in years, and have never worn them while hunting. I occasionally use them while hiking and scouting in snakey-looking areas in the summer. They sure can give you peace of mind and allow you to focus on deer or whatever it is you're hunting. Many years ago, my grandpa worked clearing salt cedar along the Rio Grande in southern New Mexico. He told me the diamondbacks were so thick that he actually fashioned some leggings out of stove pipe. One summer I did field work outdoors in Montana. The prairie rattlers in this particular area were just thick. After a few weeks of very close encounters (and doing the snake dance, LOL!), I was pretty rattled (no pun intended) and neurotic. One morning, I climbed up onto a large rock that was just up off a hayfield. As I got on top of the rock, I looked down into a crevice on the other side and it was full of rattlers. It was a den, and there must have been 40 or 50 of them there. It was kind of creepy. What if I had slipped and fallen into that crevice? Chris

I have spoken with many old timers about the 'good old days' of mule deer hunting of 40+ years ago. The behaviors of the bucks were completely different back then. Even old bucks would jump up and run in plain view at the slightest disturbance. Most would stop and look back before topping the next rise. Hunters didn't look at bucks as creatures that would hold tight and let you walk right by them. Most were hunted and shot by flushing. As a result, the bucks that were killed first were the ones with the behavioral traits that made them easy to kill. So the bucks with these traits were quickly taken out of the gene pool. The ones that were left to pass on their genes were 'hiders' not 'runners', were more brush oriented, and had nerves of steel. The end result is that we now have a breed of buck that is much harder to kill. Coues bucks should be no different. An incredible amount of hunting pressure over the last 40 years has created a mature buck that is smarter and has habits and behaviors very unlike the bucks of 40 (or maybe even 20?) years ago. Sound improbable? Think about how breeding physical traits into dogs has been successful in a generation or two. How about race horses and cattle? If physical traits can be bred into offspring quickly, why can't mental traits? Anyway, we glassers have adapted our hunting techniques to capitalize on the ever changing behavioral traits of Coues bucks as well as the advancement in technology. And yes, I do hunt big 'ol muleys by glassing/spot & stalk too. Chris Darnell

I watched a show Saturday night on the Outdoor Channel of a Coues deer hunt in Old Mexico. It was Jim Zumbo Outdoors, and he hunted with Kelso. Jim's big black cowboy hat was waaaaaaay out of place in Coues country, LOL. Unfortunately, I don't know when it will be broadcast again, perhaps somebody knows how to find out? It is always neat to see video of Coues hunting since it is so rare. Kirk hunted the lower country in the ocotillos, and man I sure didn't know they could grow so thick. He even offered a few useful tips. Overall, a pretty doggone good Coues show. Chris

I have spent a great deal of time around mule deer bucks in Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado. Here is one of the behaviors that I have observed in mature bucks. Many mature bucks are plainly visible in the spring and summer when they are growing their racks. They continue to be visible for a month or so after their rack growth reaches its peak. But after rubbing, they cannot be spotted. Then, when the rut comes around, there they are again in plain view in their home territory. Many a hunter has had a big 'ol buck picked out in the summer but he seems to disappear after rubbing and then reappear for the rut. What happens is these bucks become purely nocturnal and/or more brush-oriented (if they live in brushy areas) after rubbing. They become sluggish or inactive during daylight for 5 to 7 weeks after rubbing. They are still there in their home turf, but you rarely spot them. It seems as if they are gone. They suddenly become visible again 1 to 2 weeks before the rut. I'm not talking about bucks disappearing due to hunting pressure. This nocturnal behavior seems to be a natural one as I have witnessed it with bucks in areas that receive little or no hunting pressure. Also, I am referring to mature bucks as those that are at least 5 years old. The 3-year-olds don't seem to follow this behavior. Not all mature bucks exhibit this behavior, as some remain visible throughout the fall. But I think most do, and I have come to expect this behavior in a 6 or 7 year old buck. It's not just a situation of the bucks being hard to spot because they moved into the brush, as I have witnessed this nocturnal behavior in open, treeless, sagebrush country. The reasons for this behavior are many IMO, and probably worthy of another discussion. My question is for you knowledgeable hunters who have spent a great deal of time scouting and observing Mr. Coues. Do mature Coues bucks exhibit this behavior and seem to disappear after rubbing? If so, the 5 to 7 week period after rubbing would take in the Oct and Nov seasons. This natural behavior by itself would make it very hard to find an old buck in the early seasons. What do you all think? Chris Darnell

For the second time, what's up with all the gd lions in Arizona??? Holy cow, that's it for me. I have had more than enough. Never again will I waste my mental and physical energy and $$$ pursuing magnificient and challenging Coues deer bucks. There probably aren't any left, anyway. My hunting license $$$ seem to be going to the anti's who absolutely love a healthy lion pop. From now on, I will chase the most plentiful, most respected, and most visible big game animal in Arizona, the mountain lion. I have been wrong all these years thinking that mature Coues bucks are the epitome of big game in Arizona. My mistake, I apologize. LOL, Chris

Alright, lay it on us. How much did the Coues and muley governor's tags go for? Chris

Based on the number of deer seen, what do you guys and gals consider a "good" day of hunting? What is the greatest number of deer that you've seen on one day? How about you Mexico hunters in December and January? Obviously, this will vary based on area, weather, and time of year. I once hunted a low deer density area on the San Carlos (unit C) in late November and saw only 2 or 3 deer per day. One year on San Carlos unit A in January I spotted 6 - 10 deer per day. On a very hot November hunt in the Chiricauhua's in 1999, I saw less than 10 deer per day, and it was a very brief morning and evening show only. The most I've ever seen was 22 in one day in 32 during December 2002, and I had several days when I saw about that many. Based on my experiences, I would say that an average hunt in Arizona would be one where you spot about 10 deer per day. I would say that a good day in a good area would be 20 or more. What do you all think? Chris Darnell

Hey Bret, Great pics and great story! Glad you had a blast. Thanks for reminding me of the beautiful Arizona desert country. Congrats on finding and enjoying a great, productive, positive hobby! Most people don't ever get the hobby thing figured out, and it is their loss. Chris

Hmmmmmmm. Let's see, if I give up beer and pizza, cable TV, and my broadband internet service (ouch!!), I can probably swing the Coues tag in 5 or 6 years. The muley tags would definitely require an illegal activity. Chris

I had a fantastic telephone conversation the other night with a super duper trophy Coues deer hunter, definitely one of the all-time best. He spends a great deal of time out in the hills (I think he lives out there!), and is incredibly knowledgeable about the habits and behaviors of older bucks. He most certainly knows how to think like one. I know he will read this message, and I really wish he would join this forum and share his knowledge about such a magnificent animal like I have been trying to get him to do. How about it JR??? He indicated to me that, yes indeed, he has had trouble relocating some of his scouted older bucks after they rub. He seemed puzzled and speculative about the reasons for their disappearance. He didn't necessarily think that it is a natural behavior (as I do), but may be an adapted one. The reasons aren't really important, though IMO. In fact, I'm not sure that knowledge about this behavior (if it is a natural one) is all that important for Coues deer. Why? Because 1) the seasons are short and you have to pick only one, 2) there is plenty of hunting pressure of many kinds to make the older bucks nocturnal and/or less visible, anyway. It may be important to know if you can't relocate your mature buck in the few weeks after rubbing. Don't get alarmed and change areas, he is still there. Also, if you are hunting mature bucks in Oct or Nov that haven't been spooked by hunting pressure, it may still be difficult to spot a buck at that time of the year. If any of you are interested in pursuing a mature Rocky Mtn muley, knowledge of this nocturnal behavior is important and can be a deal-maker. If your season lasts for the entire month or the last half of October (the nocturnal month!) like many in Nevada and Wyoming do, choose your hunt for the last week of the month! On or about October 25th, the older bucks suddenly (and it can be overnight!) become very visible during daylight. You can be hunting the same open country for 10 days without spotting one and then all of a sudden there is a great buck (or several!) right before your eyes. Believe me, it will make you think "where did that big #$% come from?" and it will drive home the importance of understanding mature buck habits and behaviors if you want to consistently harvest them. Anyway, I thought it was worth discussing on this great forum. Chris Darnell

Several years ago in the Chiricahuas I actually saw some people hunting from horseback, evidently attempting to jump and shoot a buck. It appeared to me that they were working as a group, as there were several of them in a small area working some low ridges in fairly open country. At the time I knew that many of the old timers used to hunt from horseback, but it still was surprising to see them considering the modern day trend of glassing & stalking. They were probably just hunting for any buck, not necessarily a whopper. You surely would have to dismount, get your rifle to your shoulder, re-spot the leaping buck, and make a running shot all in a fairly quick, smooth manner. You would have to do several quick maneuvers just exactly right to make a shot while horseback hunting. Have any of you guys seen or done horseback hunting? Chris

Hey Chris Denham, welcome to this site and thanks for the input. We look forward to hearing more from you. Hey Bret M (Bullwidgeon), in your post of July 2002 under this category in the thread titled "Coues Deer Patterns" you made a reference to Coues bucks becoming nocturnal after rubbing. Care to elaborate??? We would love to have your input. Here are some of my thoughts on the reasons for this 'disappearing act'. 1. Many of the older bucks have survived because they are more brush-oriented than other deer. Cover=safety= life to them. They are more visible in the summer because they don't want to bang their tender, growing antlers. After becoming hard horned, they no longer have a reason to be in the open so much and move back into the brush as their instincts tell them to do. These bucks may not be purely nocturnal, but can't be spotted very easily because of thick cover. I'm not sure Coues are as concerned about bumping their tender antlers because the brush in their country isn't as thick and they are smaller deer with smaller racks and can glide around easier. 2. The timing of the 'nocturnal mode' may not be triggered by rubbing, but by an increase in the nutritional content of certain feeds. The nutritional value of certain feeds skyrockets in the fall after the first frost (does it ever freeze in southern AZ, LOL!). Given a higher nutritional content of key feeds, the bucks are able to get their fill by feeding solely at night and are therefore not up and visible during daylight. Just by coincidence, the timing of the first frost coincides approximately with the timing of rubbing. Sudden quality changes in feed is the most likely reason for the 'disappearing act', IMO. 3. Old bucks teach the younger bucks this behavior while in their bachelor groups. 4. Hunters have culled the bucks who don't have this behavior. The ones that do have it live to pass on their genes. I am doing a little more research into this behavior in Coues deer and will soon add a little more to this thread. Chris Darnell

I just got off the phone with my good friend Robin Bechtel from Show Low. He just heard a story that a guide from Safford and his buddy harvested two 130"+ typicals in 32 in 2003. Evidently, this guide's business is called Coues Crazy or some such thing. Can any of you confirm this? If it's true, these are top 10 typicals!!! Chris Darnell

Hey Derek, Thanks for the reply and the honesty. The rumormill is indeed a crazy thing. This one actually made it all the way to Colorado and back to AZ. But you can't complain about the publicity! Chris Darnell

What's up with all the gd lions in Arizona? Holy cow, I can't believe it. I hear waaaaay too many sighting/incidents mentioned on this forum. Ain't there a lion season there? Have the anti's taken over the state? No wonder the deer pop is down! No wonder the older coues deer are neurotic! I spend extensive time in the hills in many states, scouting, hunting, and glassing like a maniac. It is a rare occasion that I even see a lion track, much less a kitty cat. I usually see a track or two on my Arizona hunts, though. Arizona - the lion hunter's paradise! Chris Darnell PS - Thanks for the great pics and story, Amanda.

I use 100 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in .25 caliber for Coues deer and pronghorns. Both animals are very similar in size and construction and aren't too difficult to kill. The Ballistic Tips expand fairly quickly yet are still tough enough to penetrate a shoulder. They also are very accurate bullets. Based on my experiences with a variety of game animals, an expanding bullet will kill an animal quicker than a penetrating bullet on broadside heart/lung shots. However, for mulies and larger game, I prefer to use a tougher penetrating type bullet in case I have to penetrate a shoulder or back due to the shot being at an odd angle. I always plan for worst-case-scenario shots on rare, hard-to-find trophy animals. Chris Darnell

Just to get you Mexico hunters a little excited, I am acquainted with a gentleman who harvested a super duper buck in December. It grosses 123 B & C and nets 113 and change, typical. It has five inlines plus eyeguard on one side (four inlines plus eyeguard on the other), which is rare for Coues. I'm sorry I can't post his pic since I don't have his permission. Good luck to all you Mexico hunters! Chris Darnell

Holy cow! Those guys need some target practice. Reminds me of the time in northwest Wyoming that I came face-to-face with a boar grizzly. I was envisioning the same sort of scenario during our staring match that seemed to last an hour or so. Chris

In December 2002, I hunted unit 32 (the north end) for about two weeks. One evening, I decided to sit and watch an area that I had seen a few deer in and was 1/4 mile down a gentle draw from an active tank. I sat from about 2 hours until dark to dark glassing with my handheld Zeiss 8 x 56's out to about 500 yards. The area didn't have a lot of cover or feed, but had plenty of recent tracks. I thought I might get lucky. About an hour and a half before dark, I spotted a lone doe up and feeding at about 400 yards. I kept looking for another deer, but saw none. After watching for about 30 minutes, I spotted movement about 100 yards west of her. As I watched, a buck moved out of his bed behind a tree and immediately began looking toward the doe, trying to home in on her exact position. He obviously knew that she had bedded there all day, and was trying to reaffirm her location. As the buck "hopped" around the tree, I identified the reason for his hop. He was missing his left rear leg below the hock. There was no bone sticking out or no skin hanging, just a smooth ending to his leg at the joint. He was a large forky, and seemed to be making a good living. HE OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE WORD "CRIPPLED" MEANT!!! He immediately began hopping toward the doe, and climbed up over the rocks to get to her and "rut" her a little bit, since he knew the program. This was about December 25. She very much enjoyed his attention, because she obviously knew the program too. She bounced and flirted and ran in a big circle away from him, because he was supposed to CHASE HER AND CATCH HER, right??? But after moving about 75 yards from him AND LOOKING BACK CONTINUALLY and watching him struggle to chase her (with his one hind leg) over the rock ledge, she realized that HE WAS HANDICAPPED AND COULDN'T PURSUE HER LIKE OTHER BUCKS would. She IMMEDIATELY turned around and ran back to him, flirting with him and making smaller circles around him THAT SHE KNEW HE COULD CATCH UP WITH!!! Who says Coues deer aren't beautiful, magnificent, intelligent animals!!! I enjoyed this incredible, rare episode and still think about it all the time. Good thing that buck wasn't 100", or I would have had to pass on a super duper buck! Chris Darnell Anybody else have any unusual stories to share?

There is an article on the new short magnums by John Barsness in the current issue of Rifle Magazine, if any of you want to learn a little more. It is kind of a summary of his opinions on several of them. I am a rifle & handloading nut myself, and have found John to be extremely knowledgeable. He bases his opinions on actual testing and experiences, unlike some writers. Chris Darnell

Ever seen a video or pictures of a kitty cat pulling down a deer? I never had until now. I just watched a DVD entitled 'High and Low in Mule Deer Country' put out by The Eastman's Journal (www.eastmans.com) for $13 plus shipping. The DVD features footage of an average muley buck being pulled down and killed by a cougar. It was made in New Mexico a couple years ago. The clarity is not the best but you can definitely see everything. The first portion with the lion jumping on the buck is omitted. Based on the bucks fatigue, they had been going at it for a little while when the camera was turned on. It is an incredible struggle and goes on for a while because the cat can't break the rutting buck's neck and has to resort to another maneuver. The most incredible part to me is when the buck's sidekick moves in close with his ears pinned back to see if he can help his partner! I would have expected him to run like heck. The rest of the DVD (the muley stuff) is not all that great, IMO. Anyway, I thought you all might be interested in seeing this incredible piece of action for a few bucks. I am not associated with the Eastmans' Journal in any way. Chris Darnell

I've had mounts done by many taxidermists. All have been done in less than a year. Since I have grown demanding and impatient in my old age, I now ask the taxidermist "how much more for a rush job"? My present taxidermist charges $100 more. My last muley I delivered to him November 10 and picked it up about January 15. Chris Darnell