BuzzH

Not until I draw one of your Rocky Mountain Bighorn tags (which I have 11 points for now), a few more rifle bull tags, a bunch of javelina, and another half dozen late coues tags...give or take. Then I will (maybe).

What a load of crap...I'm a joe-nobody Non Resident from BF Wyoming and since 2001 I've drawn 4 rifle bull elk tags, 4 (likely 5 as my card was hit July 5th) late coues tags, javelina every time I've applied( 8-10 tags) and desert sheep. I don't have a youtube channel, facebook page, or anything else. Find another conspiracy theory to carry on about...

I don't think the need is that apparent, and I've followed the issues in AZ. I also don't think its a wise move to politicize an issue like this by R and D designation. I know a lot of hard core R's that don't care much for hunting, I also know some hard core D's that support hunting in a big way. I wont go much further than to say, that over my lengthy involvement in a handful of states on issues like this, ostracizing potential allies right out of the gate, on partisan politics, is never not the wrong move... Not sure I believe a couple million bucks is going to change a ballot initiative on lion hunting in AZ, could be wrong. More than one way to skin a cat (pun there), and I haven't seen many other options explored or recommended that solves the problem of BI's. I'm not an AZ resident, so not my pig, not my farm....good luck and I'll kick in the extra $20-$25 for a point so I can say "I did all I could"...SMH.

I'm never one to be a cheapskate and open my wallet all the time to fund wildlife and conservation... I haven't seen the need for the additional funding for "education", nor have I seen an action plan? Is there one? Before I spend money, I like to see the specific need, and also the plan of action and exactly why, where, when and how that money is going to be spent. Seems to me, raising a bunch of funds BEFORE you sell the need and have a plan in place to accomplish specific goals is putting the cart squarely in front of the horse. I'm more of a horse in front of the cart kind of guy. I just having seen a real solid plan, other than one group peddling fear that there is a need for a couple million bucks to save hunting. Also, for those that believe advertising campaigns are the end-all-be-all to save hunting, and money fixes everything...you better get smart, and you better get smart in a hurry. The way to sway the public opinion of hunting is through good, common sense, grass-roots engagement. Hunters need to show up at meetings, at the legislature, and I can tell you from first hand involvement, we don't do it. Many take the time to scout, hunt, take the old lady and kids to Disneyland, but very, very, very few take the time (or spend a day of vacation) to attend a meeting, write their elected officials, or address the Legislature. Another way to sway opinion is just by word of mouth...and being a positive spokesman for the sport. Invite some non-hunting friends to dinner once a month and serve up some wild game. The way we present ourselves to the non-hunting public will be what they remember when it comes time to vote. Seen it...and it works. If you let others do your work for you, don't be surprised if the end result isn't what you expected, or that their idea didn't get the desired result (seen that too, lots of times).

Trophyseeker, I hear you, painting with a broad brush is not something that I do. But, in this case, I've never seen any set aside, raffle, governor tags, etc. decline in number once they start being issued. Not once. I also, very reluctantly agree that these tags can do some good things if used in a very specific way. There has to be very prudent over-sight...and rules can change regarding those tags, with very little to no public input. As to your reference regarding Montana...nearly all the sheep herds there were relocated using nothing but license dollars long before a governors tag or raffle tag existed. Also, the number of sheep tags issued in Montana is lower now than when I left there in 2000, and probably lower than when I started hunting there in 1979. Wyoming is the same way, 249 sheep tags issued in 2007...this year we will issue 200. So, when sheep decline, the reduction to quotas is all done on the backs of the average joe. Care to guess how many raffle and Gov tags have been reduced? Yeah, NONE. We issue 5 governors tags and 2 more through the raffle...or 3.5% of the total available sheep tags. It comes down to this for me, and many others, is it worth giving up 140 sheep tags over the next 20 years to the highest bidder? Or would I rather see 140 average guys have the opportunity? Is the North American Model important, or just a punch-line? The question you have to ask, is it worth letting the genie out of the bottle in Arizona because you need some money? Will this trend continue every time there's a funding issue? Will it stop at just a couple tags? IMO, too many states have been wayyy too quick to do the easy thing of auctioning off and raffling tags...I strongly suggest you really think about this one before you go down that road. It wont stop, you heard it here first. I have very little voice in Arizona, and I'm the last to tell another State what to do with its State Wildlife Resources. That said, I've been very fortunate in Arizona as a NR hunter, having drawn 4 bull elk rifle tags, desert sheep, 3 great coues tags, and multiple javelina. What you guys/gals have there is something special...and I wouldn't just give it away over money. Like I said, Arizona has always impressed me because you've kept these raffle/auction tags to a minimum. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I've read through this entire thread and some may find value in an outside view of what I've seen go on for a long time in other states in regard to raffle/governors/commission and other set aside tags. When I started hunting in 1979, to my knowledge there wasn't a set aside of tags in any state, no governors tags, no raffle tags. Everyone that wanted to hunt applied just like everyone else. With the revenue generated through that, combined with TRUE donations of time and money from the hunting public, we built wildlife populations to what we have today. We didn't need to be peddling our wildlife resources to the fat wallet guys, or raffle our best opportunities away. IMO, and my experience, we still don't need to do so. There's been this line of thought being promoted that money solves every issue. I think that's all BS...money can solve some problems, but it wont fix everything. Money cant buy support for hunting from the vast majority of the non-hunting public that are neutral on hunting. What's going to win that battle is each of us...be an ambassador for the Sport. Make it YOUR priority to talk to your neighbors, friends, co-workers, relatives about the value in hunting, fishing, outdoor recreation, etc. Arm yourself with the facts, the economics of hunting, the past successes and also the path forward. Let them be part of that path forward. I can also say that these raffle and auction tags have created a monster, a monster that literally feeds on itself and does nothing but continue to grow. I look at a lot of good NGO's that, IMO, have sold out the North American Model so they can profit from raffle and auction tags. These are groups that do an incredible amount of good work, but they've become reliant and addicted to the money these tags make them. The GF Agencies, along with the various State legislatures also seem to be equally reliant on peddling some of our best wildlife resources and opportunities away to the highest bidder. They point to the "good" these tags and money do, but never point out the lost opportunity to the guys that created the wildlife we have today. Never explain how commercializing our wildlife and creating a system that favors one group of hunter over another...all things that are in total defiance of the North American Model. Trust me, it will get to the point that these additional "few" tags will turn into many tags. Those tags will cause management problems and the GF agencies have to manage around them. Here in Wyoming, we're (average hunters) losing not only the opportunity through the direct sale of commission/governors tags, but also through seasons and quotas being kept lower or not happening to address these tags. I just attended a meeting where a 25 tag proposed late mule deer season was rejected by the local hunters. The reason? Because that same season was shot down by locals because there were 17-22 commissioners and governor tag hunters also killing deer the last time the season was open. I know one of the better sheep areas is being kept at 8 tags, not because we couldn't afford to kill 10-12 sheep, but if the quota is raised past 8, then 7 more governors and raffle tag hunters will be pounding that unit. Not saying you'll get to the same point in Arizona, but its been my experience over the last 40 years, that these tags have done nothing but increase in number once they get a foot hold...Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Idaho. These tags didn't exist 40 years ago, now there's hundreds and hundreds of them. I cant name a single state that has LESS of these tags, or reduced them in number...not a one. I've always been impressed with Arizona that you all have kept this crap out of your State...I highly encourage you to stay the course on that and draw the hard line. Its the best example of a slippery slope that I can come up with and putting that genie back in the bottle is about impossible. If you really do need to raise revenue to fight things, I suggest we all dig a bit deeper and make it happen. Don't peddle your State Wildlife assets to do it. Good luck.

The Wyoming draw results are today. There will be a leftover list that will show what pronghorn tags are available. You will have to apply for the leftover tags this year from IIRC, June 26-30.

All the areas you mentioned should be fine.

Not trying to sway anyone one way or the other on applying, but the winter-kill is really limited to the Western 1/3rd of Wyoming. I think there will be some losses to mature bucks, both pronghorn and deer there. The remainder of the State is actually in great shape. The winter in the eastern 2/3 of the State has been about average, and we had some really good weather in February and March.

rthrbhntng, I noticed this quote from you "The ones I talked to today had the AZSFW fact sheet in their hands when we were talking. Thats not a "fact" sheet, its called a whitepaper and is a common lobbying tool. Those WP's are written with a clear agenda, and the "facts" found in them are only as accurate as the group/lobbying firm that produces same. I've lobbied in D.C. a couple times and thats the MO that just about any group uses, and frankly it should be one that sportsmen and also sporting groups should/better be using. Its fine to call, but if everyone has the time, just type up a simple, accurate whitepaper and hand it to your representatives. Its best done via making an appointment with your state reps before hand. Hand them the white paper and explain what is stated in the content. Be professional, be concise, be accurate, be truthful...dont argue, dont whine. Let SFW/Gilstrap choke on the real facts. Get organized and call Gilstrap/AZSFW's bluff...and be sure to point out the lies in their whitepaper. Theres no question that AZSFW/Gilstrap lobbying has pulled all the stops for one last push. Time to drive the wooden stake into the heart of 2072. Wish I was a Resident of Arizona... Good luck and I hope things go right and HB2072 is done away with.

Priority #1 Wolves. Do you guys have any idea how many proposed wolf reitrodution area there are in the works? Several! First and foremost the Kaibab and Arizona Strip Region. These areas fit the criteria perfectly for wolf reintoduction. Next comes the unit 9 & 10. These units close proximity to National Park and Indian Reservations makes them a close second to the proposal North of the canyon. A full wolf reintroduction will much more negativley affect YOUR ability to hunt elk and deer than auctioning off 55 tags to the highest bidders. Especially when a significant portion of the proceeds will go directly into fighting the wolf programs. What a crock...can you explain AZSFW's official plan they have for fighting the wolf issue? Let me give you a little history into what went on in MT, ID, and WY. There were many groups involved in "fighting" the wolf reintroduction there, many with very deep pockets. Yet, the wolf reintroduction happened...and throwing more money at it would not have changed the outcome. SFW likes to make you believe that the answer to everything is simply money, and thats just not true. With no plan, SFW has got NO clue how to even begin fighting the common cold...much less an important hunting related issue. How many of you would shut right up if you won a unit 10 or 9 early rifle tag in the raffle. I bet not many. I'm impressed with the passion and high sense of morality/ethics that the sportsmen on this site, and Arizona in general, have regarding this issue. The hunters in Arizona seem to stand for something bigger than their individual desire to draw a tag. They fully understand the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and their ethics are not for sale. I cant say the some for any of the SFW kool-aid swillers. They'd sell their souls, and already have, for their "right" to throw the average DIY hunters under the bus for personal gain (auction tags). The passion and energy that some of you express on this and other websites is impressive to say the least. Possibly the only smart thing you've said on this subject...and that should be the take-home message you take back to AZSFW...these guys are serious, and they mean business. Too bad it is spent punching computer keyes instead of applied toward things that can make an actual difference. Instead you choose to rant and rave and stroke each others lynch mob egos. Again, a crock of B.S. These guys are not interested in their egos...they're interested in the future of their sport and the future generations that will follow. Many here are involved and I watched as people from this board testified today in front of the commission. They werent lobbying the commission for auction tags, they were asking to keep hunting in reach of the average sportsmen. Hardly for the sake of stroking their egos. Do you really think that Hamberlin and other wealthy people behind this bill really contrived it to make money for their own pockets? Really? Hamberlin has spent well over 1 million bucks in AZ buying tags. You answered your own question. If he donated the 1 million bucks and received nothing for it, you may have a point. He is pushing this idea so he and his wealthy buddies can cut in line and hunt Arizona each year. I always find it laughable when people with money claim to be champions of wildlife, yet wont donate a red cent without taking something in return. Its gotten so out of hand in most states, that these people buying wealth tags will not even buy one unless they cant hunt statewide, for several months or in the case of AZ for an entire year. I dont think its asking to much to make a Governors tag holder declare a hunting unit and hunt within the same regulations as those that obtained tags via the general drawing. Again, its EXPECTED that with money should come privilege...and thats B.S. any way you care to slice it. All you see is the "buying tags" part! Wrong again, I think what many see is the commercialization and privitazition of a public resource and the erosion of the North American Model. You don't see the hundreds of thousands of dollars in time and material that has gone to water and habitat projects across so many of Az's top units! You're right we dont...because there isnt any accountabilty to where AZSFW spends their money. HB2072, in its original form, didnt address accountability for a single dollar. Only when pressed by the concerned sportsmen did a lame second attempt at 2072, include anything to do with accountability of funds. I'd argue that AZSFW would be no better than their sister group in UT, where cloudy accounting and ZERO transparency of funds rule the day. You are stuck in this wealth envy state of mind that is so typical of Liberalism! So what if they have more money than you and can purchase a tag and go hunt. We ought to thank them for spending it on auction tags, because you benefit from it each and everytime you go big game hunting in AZ! I'm not envious of their money, they're envious of the wildlife that rightfully belongs to the public. Further, they throw their suckers in the dirt, hold their breath, and stomp their feet everytime they are challenged by those that have the most flesh in the game when it comes to the publics wildlife (average joe hunters). Get used to it, average hunters are the core of the hunting community and have done ALL the heavy lifting when it comes to what we currently have for wildlife resources in the United States. News Flash! We did it without a single wealth tag. Instead you scream and yell about how they are tag theives and liars and backstabbers and out to get "YOUR" tags. They are the publics tags...not the highest bidders tags. Its unfair to allow those with a few more dollars cut in line over the hunters that have spent years and years supporting wildlife. The upside to letting those with money wait in line with everyone else when it comes to a public resource is, there isnt a downside. Public resources should not be peddled to the highest bidder. How much have you screamers donated to the wildlife you hunt? They've donated one heck of a lot more than any of the johnie-come-lately groups like AZSFW and their band of merry tag thieves. Theres no question that 100+ years of average guys shelling out for hunting licenses, paying dues to hunting organizations, etc. trumps all the money ever raised by wealth tags...and by a land-slide, at a minimum. How much have you whiners saved to fight the wolves and other political fights hurtling down the pike straight at AZ? How many of you bitchers have ever done one thing to perpetuate, improve and conserve AZ wildlife for future young hunters? So few of you that it is pathetic, just like your argument against this bill....Get off your self rightous high horses.. As to the first part of your post, again, show me the SFW plan for "fighting" the wolf issue, explain how much good they did in MT, ID, and WY. I'll save you the trouble, all they did was OPPOSE the very legislation that resulted in MT and ID having legal seasons. What "other political fights" are "hurtling down the pike"??? What is SFW's plan to address it? Sell more wealth tags? Great plan. I'd say we have done a very good job. We brought back almost all wildlife...both game and non-game, to near record levels. Again, all without a single wealth tag. I'd reckon that the average DIY public land hunter has a right to be on a high horse. Their accomplishments are nothing short of amazing. They are the original Conservationist and the last thing they need is to be lectured by someone like you. You have yourself a good day.

The RMEF just released a letter against 2072....good news. My link

That short post by Speedgoat says a lot...and needs to be paid attention to.

Governor Brewer, I am writing this letter in regard to HB2072, a bill introduced via AZSFW. I am a long-time Non-Resident Hunter of Arizona and have been applying for and hunting there for over 10 years. I enjoy the many great opportunities that your state provides. Recently, AZSFW and their Lobbyist Suzanne Gilstrap, who I understand is meeting with members of your staff today, have endorsed and attempted to push this bill through the Arizona Legislature. This comes as no surprise as AZSFW and their affiliates through-out the Western States have made the same attempt to take public hunting tags from the average hunters in those states, only to put them up for auction to the highest bidder. This has been done in Utah to the tune of nearly 600 hunting licenses in that State. SFW Founder, Don Peay, has direct ties to the AZSFW and its no shock this same type of situation is now happening in Arizona via HB2072. I am strongly opposed to HB2072 as it is in defiance of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. The North American Model is the crown jewel of all wildlife conservation found anywhere in the World. Many great Conservation and Hunting organizations like the Boone and Crockett Club, Pope and Young Club, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and others, all strongly endorse the North American Model. One of the cornerstones of the North American Model is the significance of having equal access to the publics wildlife by ALL citizens. HB2072 is in direct conflict as it effectively steals permits from the public, and directs those permits to the exclusive use of the wealthiest hunters in the United States. This situation sets up a classic example of the "kings deer" as is the common method of wildlife conservation found in Europe and Africa. Very early on in the history of our great Nation, one of the things that seperated us from Europe was equal access to the publics wildlife by ALL citizens. Famous people like Theodore Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot, and others found these truths to be evident as well. It also should be noted that many Local Arizona Sporting groups are opposed to HB2072 and that many have already dropped their affiliation with AZSFW because HB2072 does not represent the views held by the Sportsmen/women of those groups. In true-to-form fashion, I'm sure Suzanne Gilstrap, SFW lobbyist, is claiming that sportsmen are endorsing this bill, and that AZSFW represents all sportsmen. This has become a common practice of SFW's throughout the Western States. Dont be misguided by their claims, as they have a very low paying membership. They do not represent the views of the vast majority of the hunting public, and surely DO NOT represent most of the hunters I know. Remember that over 90% of the hunting public are Do-It-Yourself public land hunters who apply faithfully for permits and are more than happy to wait their turn in line for their chances to hunt in Arizona. That same 90% are largely opposed to this type of legislation that unfairly gives preference to the wealthiest hunters affording them unfair access to the publics wildlife resources. I would highly encourage you to not endorse this attempted tag grab by AZSFW via HB2072. Lets keep the tradition alive that is the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation where you dont have to be wealthy to have access to the great public wildlife resources we have today. If you have any questions that I can answer feel free to contact me any time. All best regards,

Thought I'd add my couple cents worth to this issue as I've taken the time to contact Mr. Jerry Weiers (twice) and I've had dealings with SFW for the last 8-10 years in multiple states. At the request of the site owner, I will not provide anything but facts, or what I believe are facts with my dealings with SFW. First off, this latest tag grab should come as no surprise to anyone that has followed SFW's agenda in other states. Its the same thing everywhere they set up an affiliate branch (WY, MT, ID, AZ, CO, etc.). Don Peay and the founders of SFW all claim that each states SFW and associated groups (BGF, AZSFWC) are their own seperate entities. Don states over and over again that each SFW group can make their own decisions on how they raise funds, what issues they want to pursue, etc. I dont buy it, I've seen time and time again as any SFW group, no matter the state, repeatedly have thrown the average DIY hunters under the bus. The facts are that in my home state of Wyoming, WYSFW has lobbied for transferable landowner tags and also outfitter sponsored tags. Its only through the diligence of sportsmen in Wyoming that the idea of these tag give-aways, was soundly defeated. There is also no question that Don Peay has...and is...actively trying to take full control of the various Game and Fish Agencies in every Western State by loading commissions, unseating G&F directors, and taking control of citizen working groups involved with the decision making process regarding wildlife. Classic examples are the RAC's in Utah being piled with SFW drones, the ousting of a sitting AK F&G Director and appointing of AKSFW founder Corey Rossi (who had ZERO wildlife management experience), and I'll spare you all the details of the deciding board in Arizona in regard to appointments of Commissioners. Its the same story repeating itself over and over and over again everywhere SFW attempts to stake a claim. Further, SFW has now asked other groups, like the case in Arizona, to step up and donate large sums of money to "lobby" for the interests of all sportsmen. I find that to be an out right lie, they dont lobby for the interests of all sportsmen, rather their own agenda. This point became very apparent just a few months ago when Don Peay and Ryan Benson asked sportsmen to derail and stop the Simpson/Tester rider in the CR that has successfully delisted wolves in ID and MT. Both states are now enjoying full state control of wolves along with hunting and/or trapping seasons in both states. Further, the Great Lakes regions now seem poised to adopt wolf seasons there. The question I have asked SFW and never gotten a reply on, why did you oppose this? I wont get an answer, because the answer is very obvious...SFW/BGF have used the wolf issue as a cash cow for years. As to the issue of Arizona, this was nothing more than classic SFW operating procedures...grab as much money as you can, scare the hunters in Arizona that their interests wont be represented at the national level. Show a "need" for the $$$$ to justify the tags, but only do so if you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar trying to rob them. Under-handed behavior is nothing new to this group. One last thing, I guess that Jerry Weiers is not that interested in what NR hunters have to say in regard to this issue as I've asked him now TWICE to call me to discuss this issue. Apparently spending several thousand dollars in just tag sales in Arizona the last 10 years is no big deal to him. Since I dont live in Arizona...and cant vote him out...I'm to be treated as chopped liver. I'm just one of those pesky NR's who help fund Wildlife in Arizona he claims to be such a champion of. Finally, to end with a positive note. I would highly recommend that the hunters in Arizona take a good and honest look what has happened here and take into consideration the above things I posted. From my past experiences with dealing with legislative issues, I think you'd be better served to work with LOCAL groups like the ADA, etc. SFW has sold you all a bill of goods, claiming the individuals outdoorsmen/women and local groups cant effectively lobby on their own behalf. Thats a bunch of bunk, you can, and I've seen it happen successfully. Most recently in Montana where average DIY hunters packed the house in Helena over an entire crop of bad bills that would have had very damaging impacts on hunters and wildlife. What turned the tide is Montana, and will in any State, is hunters/anglers filling state Capitals during hearings. The average sportsmen have way, way, way more clout than they realize. The only way to ensure that YOUR views of these kinds of issues are represented is for all of us to voice our opinions...and I say work through KNOWN local groups that will fairly represent your views. Also, make sure that the local groups are ASKING for your views on the issues and that you also let them know. You have to be active, you have to be informed. Its bad enough that outdoorsmen have to worry about anti's...now we have to also worry about our supposed "own" as well. Thats sad, but a reality we now have to deal with, in no small part because of SFW. Good luck with all this and I hope that Arizona can successfully keep the Publics wildlife in the Publics hands.