lfootmatt

Diablo Mountain in 36b is completely privately owned now. I've been told that the owner is planning to develop it. It definitely shows as private on my new topo map for 36b. I know access is a problem, but according to the AZF&G regs I read this year they are required to post the property for no hunting/tresspassing in a very specific manner in order to be valid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean I can hunt on private land even if it is fenced and gated? So the rancher can get on you all he wants, but unless it's posted properly he can't do squat. Of course it would be very rude to not leave at his request, but you wouldn't have to. At least that's what the regs seem to say. Perhaps we need to better pay attention to the State Trust Land auctions and file the appropriate protests when they don't accomidate adequate public access to public lands. Without the access, these sales are effectively giving additional land away to the buyer. My $0.02 Matt

That first pic shows the mass, but not how big it really is because there isn't much scale. Then the rest of the pics loaded! Wow! That thing is huge! Once you back away it really shows the mass and the spread! Hard to top that! Matt

Personally, I view felt recoil as one of those martial arts/fraternity things. Thank you sir, may I have another? Just relax and let it kick you, the harder the better. Then repeat the phrase as you pull the bolt "Thank you sir, may I have another?", repeat until you run out of ammo or the range closes. Of course I'm shooting a really light Remington 700 (see the Alaska Wilderness Rifle on the custom shop page) at may be 7 & 1/2 pounds in .300 SAUM. Not only is it nearing wildcat status, it kicks like an angry mule. There are some reduced recoil loads out there, but where is the self punishment in that? I like to go out Coues hunting with a 180 grain bullet sitting on a compressed load going almost 3000 FPS. Light weight I've got down, low recoil I don't! Although I believe I could run a 110 or 140 grain bullet to some nice speeds w/ great accuracy for Coues that would have reasonably light recoil. Or out to insanely fast speeds with shoulder numbing recoil. After the first few you won't feel a thing. Of course your arm will be useless for a week. Think of it this way, the more it hurts you, the more it hurts what it hits. I can almost feel that zen thing now just thinking about it! Later, I'm going to go hit my toe with a hammer now "Thank you sir, may I have another?", Matt

I'm finally getting around to this. First I have to thank many people for their assistance. My wife for putting up with this year's hunting excesses. My Dad for introducing me to hunting and fishing as a kid and teaching me to shoot well. My boys for inspiring me to quit talking about hunting every year and get out there. Milton for being a great cousin and his awesome weapons knowledge. Rob and Craig for a great last day of the hunt, and their vast Coues hunting knowledge and skill. Without their help I'd most likely have settled for a spike or gotten nothing. Vince for his general Coues knowledge and scouting assistance. Brian for .300 SAUM loading assistance. 3 shot groups under 1" @ 200 yards(180 Grain Barnes TSX, 65.5 grains R22 compressed load, ~2875 fps). Dave for the use of his outstanding Nikon glass and help glassing during the hunt. Manny for the daily post hunt briefings on my way out each night. Ron at the Rem. Custom Shop for building me a real shooter. AZ G&F for finally drawing me a tag!!! And thanks to everyone here for the information and assistance. Without the knowledge and stories posted here I'd never have been prepared to make my hunt a success! Having already scheduled a Colorado Elk hunt for November 2005, I only put in for bonus points this year. At the last minute I decided to go for the Dec. 36b WT hunt. Thinking I'd never draw such a good tag. OOps. I got drawn! That led me to explore this site further. What an eye opener. This isn?t some Missouri, 20 minute, deer stand hunt! This was going to be a lot harder than that. I started scouting initially with little success in September. In November and December I had better success, mostly due to help from those more knowledgeable than myself. I hunted as much as my vacation time would allow. The first day I saw 20+ deer, mostly groups of does and 4 spikes. The 2nd day, same general area, less does, couple of spikes and 1 forky. Nikon 12X50 SE glass did find 3 bedded deer including a fawn at 500 yards. 3rd day tried a close by, but new area that had great terrain. I Didn't see a single deer, and was very puzzled until I discovered a UDA highway through the bottom. They were coming over a saddle and dropping into the valley. I think the pressure through the saddle was pushing out the deer. The full moon and UDA traffic was keeping the deer moving at night, I bet. 4th day was Christmas Eve morning. Got in real early, setup on a bowl I was sure would hold bucks. I sat there half asleep in the dark waiting to glass until heavy movement in the brush startled me awake. Being in full cammo, behind a big rock surrounded with brush made me sure I wasn't seen. It Had to have been a person, javelina or deer to make that much noise. I glassed until 9:00AM then moved over to the other side of the hill. Immediately I glassed up 3 does and 2 spikes. Spikes reappeared 20 min later sparring and chasing 2 does. All 4 dropped into a draw. On the way out I dropped in also to see what the attraction was. Turned out to have running water in it along with 4 UDA camps with very fresh prints(human). Trash was everywhere. See attached pic. I took the 30th off to try another new area that looked good on paper. My buddy Dave came along to help glass. After an embarrassing dead end hike to a sheer rock wall, we hustled back to the truck drove a little further in and found a saddle that gave us access to the bowl we were looking for. We glassed many does and a couple of spikes milling about, but no shooters. We then glassed a group of 4 does 1000+ yards out moving fast down hill. They stopped occasionally to eat but were mostly moving away. They stopped again and one was really tearing up a tree. Pulled out the big glass (18X70 Nikon Astrolux) to reveal a huge 2X2 raking the heck out of a tree. Then the 4 started sparring and chasing around. Turned out to be 2 spikes, a forky and the big 2X2. The 2X2 was a shooter with real thick, outside the ears main beams and just a single big tine on each side. It was too far to see if it had eye guards. We tried to get down closer but it didn't work, they were dropping down to a spring over a mile out. Still, it was exciting to see something worth shooting. We glassed until dark, saw a few more does and spikes, then hiked out. Now I'm down the last day of the hunt and thinking I might get skunked just like my Elk hunt. That's where Rob and Craig came in and saved the day. Even though they didn't know me from Adam 6 months ago, they jumped in showed me how it's supposed to be done. We got in early and deep, way further than I'd been going. We setup at the base of a big bowl with ridges on 3 sides to glass. I immediately spotted 3 or 4 does in the early dawn. Rob and Craig started seeing stuff also. Craig shortly spotted a really nice buck 800+ yards out. Craig dialed us onto it. With the 18X70's I could tell he was much bigger than anything else I'd seen. They agreed was 105+ inches. I lightened my pack up while they plotted out stalk. Craig stayed down and coordinated our movements as he watched through his 15X56 Swaros. Rob led the way, with me in tow. Now I'm in pretty good shape, 6'4" 215lbs, I lift and run (admittedly not enough), and I've been out hunting hard. Even with my rapidly lightened pack, Rob was kicking my butt. We dropped into a wash, up 1 hill, down again, up the next (as fast as we could scramble) then slowed to get in position to glass. We got him in sight; I dropped my pack and prepared to shoot. We were 440 out, and I was only sighted in out to 400. Then he started to move toward us, closing the distance down to 400 quickly. I'm trying to get my breathing under control from the stalk while trying to find him in my scope. Just then Craig calls and tells us to hurry because 3 coyotes popped up 50 yards below the buck and the does were starting move. Then I find him in my scope, but all I got was a grey side moving through my line of vision. I know my limits and at 400 I'm not taking a moving shot, so I passed. The buck dropped into a notch so we got up and moved fast trying to get above him where we saw some nearby does heading. We got up there fast, 3/4 of the way up the mountain, all we found was a cut that ran up to a saddle at the top. The coyotes must have spooked him out. My new .204 will exact some revenge for that infraction! Although disappointed, it was a great stalk with a lot of excitement and got me very close to taking a real trophy buck. About 1/2 way down Craig calls in with 2 more bucks, a fork and a nice 3X3. Once we got down and glassed up the 3X3 he was on the exact opposite side, and just as far out as the previous stalk. Being soaked through with sweat, I shed the cammo down to Royal Robbins and a t-shirt. It was getting hot now. They asked what I wanted to do. Last day of the hunt, it's a good 3X3, let?s go! On with the pack, up with the gu,n and off we went. A bit slower this time since he bedded down and wasn't moving. We cut 2 canyons over for cover. Wind changed directions several times but still he didn't move. As we got closer to the top I knocked a big rock loose clattering down badly. Craig called because the buck was looking right at us. So we stop and held position waiting for the call. After a couple of minutes the buck laid his head back down. So off again, slower and quieter. Once just below the buck we cut over 1 saddle into the adjacent canyon and climbed up to a saddle that should put us right across from the buck. Rob crawled up below a mesquite tree using it for cover. He immediately glasses the buck, still bedded and only 200 yards out. I lose the pack and crawl up slowly, glass him up and get on the shooting sticks from poor sitting position. The whole time he?s looking right at us, I assume he was asleep. He was laying at a very shallow angle to us. I put it on his shoulder; tell Rob I?m taking the shot. Squeeze, I guess it went boom, I really didn?t hear or feel it. I chamber another round and immediately get back on the scope. Just as I?m getting back on, Rob says you shot just over him. I immediately find the dust cloud as Rob is saying that he?s up and standing broadside. Without hesitation, I dropped my point of aim just below his shoulder (now taking account for being over at 200, I?m zeroed at 250) and fire. Chamber the next round and on the scope again. When I fired we both jumped off the buck and couldn?t find him again. Then Rob says he dropped down, so I pan down and as I find him in the scope, Rob says he?s down. I asked ?should I hit him again? Rob replied, no he?s down, good shot. I watched him for a few seconds through the scope, he only kicked once and never moved again. I unloaded my weapon and let it soak in for a second. Rob congratulated me on a great hunt; I thanked Rob and Craig, scarcely believing it was over. We hiked over and discovered that I hit the nice 3X3 buck in the shoulder and he fell immediately down the steep slope below where he had bedded. We gutted him there and found that my 2nd shot hit him in the shoulder, broke it, tore through the heart, and out the opposite shoulder breaking it. The only organ damaged was the heart and it was utterly destroyed. I don?t think the bullet ever even opened. We snapped a few pics and started down. Rob grabbed my pack and gun while I dragged him down as far as I could. Once down to the flatter area we got him on my shoulders and hoofed it out. After congratulating each other we hurried out so I could make it to Dickman?s and get it cooled down. I called home to tell the wife and boys. They were excited. After seeing how excited and happy it made our boys, I think the wife was sold a bit on the hunting thing, even if she won?t admit it. She loaded up and headed for Dickman?s so the boys could see my buck. Once they got there the guys at Dickman?s were great and pulled my buck back out of the freezer for the boys and even took pictures of us with it. The boys (8, 5 and 14 months, who was asleep in the car with the wife) were so thrilled it is hard to express. I can?t wait to take them out with me. Again, thanks to everyone who helped in anyway with such a great hunt! Most of all I have to thank God for gracing all of us with being in such a wonderful country that allows us to take advantage of His bounty! On to the honey ?do-lists (until I get a scope on that .204)! Thanks again, Matt

Indio, Sweet buck! Made all the sweeter by taking him on the last day of the hunt when the pressure is really on! Later, Matt

UncleBuck, Looks like I'm going to trade the cape for a discounted european mount. I'll guess it ends up hanging in my older 2 boy's room. Firmly attached to the wall. I'll give the wife a break and not hang it over our bed. As to the trash, I pickup any trash left by sportsmen(I'm sure they dropped it by accident). However, I'd need a dozen roll-off dumpsters and Sheriff Joe's chain gang to clean out that wash. And I was well over 20 miles north of the border as the crow flies. I thought the distance would get me away from that. If I had the money I'd get a full shoulder mount, but it's just too much Jack right now. If I'd gotten that 105+ it might be a different story! Thanks for all of the positive feed back. I think he's a pretty nice buck too! Especially since he was my very first deer of any type! As a matter of fact, it was my first thing bigger than a rabbit or duck from back in Missouri. Matt

last pic

More pics.

UDA's are the 2 legged variety that leave large quantities of trash in their wake as they migrate from Mexico to US and force the real deer into the high country. In Little Rock, big news, out here it's nothing. You from AR? I'm from Kansas City. We used to go to Beaver Lake up by Rogers, AR 8-10 times every summer to water ski, wake board and striped bass fish. Sure is pretty country up there in NW Arkansas. I'll post a detailed trhead on my Southern AZ hunt W/ pics later today. Later, Matt <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amanda, Great buck! It's nice to get rewarded at the end of a hard hunt. I think God decided that Coues hunters would only be rewarded with a buck after much hard work, and that the easy/lucky shots would be few and far between out here. You certainly piad your dues to get yours. Thanks for the great story and for all you do for the Coues hunting community! Matt

Last day of the hunt I filled my tag. With lots of help. 36b, guys said it was 80+ inch 3X3 W/ eye guards. I'll post more W/ pics from work Friday when I have a faster connection. Thanks all, Matt

I'm still in the hunt. 36b off Chavez Siding hunter access road (684). Saturday morning I had a couple of spikes 250-325 yards out, but passed. Got in real early, setup in the pitch black and waited for light to glass. Dozed a bit only to be startled by movement to my rear! I was in a pretty sheltered spot from the rear, so if it were our enemies from the South I was pretty sure they couldn't see me either. Spooked me a bit and sounded too big to be less than deer/man sized. I moved around and glassed another slope around 9:00AM. That was when I glassed up the spikes and 4 or 5 does. I lost them, but found them again later when the 2 spikes were sparring and then chasing the does as they dropped into a draw. Made a heck of a lot of noise. On my way out I dropped into the stream bed to see what the does were doing. I found a nicely flowing stream in spots. also found 4 really fresh UDA camps with their associated trash. UDA prints looked as fresh as mine in the wet sand. Really pissed me off! I usually pack out more than I bring in, but I'm not toucing that nasty stuff. Besides I could fill a roll off dumpster there was so much. Is this turning into a rant?! I have found that the constant presence, or the threat of UDA/Smuggler/Coyote presence in the area, to be a real distraction. It really detracts for my ability to relax and enjoy the hunt. If I wanted to deal with A$$ holes all day I can just go to work and take care of that. Unless I've got a dedicated group to camp with, I'll not be putting in for any 36 unit hunts in the future. It just takes too much away from the experience for me. Anyway, I'll be out there solo on friday with a prayer, .300 and .40. Saturday I'll be out with some much needed help! Wife says the only help I need is professional. I said cool, does that mean I get to hire a guide next time I get drawn. She said no it just means I get to call EAP at work and get mental help for wanting to hunt so much! Good Luck!!! Matt

36b update, Lack of vacation time forced me back to the office. I'll be back out 12/24 AM and 12/26,30,31. 12/16 = 20 does and 2 spikes. Nothing worth shooting. Bedded spike would have been an easy stalk, good wind and he was bedded facing away 450 yards out. could have easily gotten within 250 yards for a chip shot. But I really want something to put on the wall. 12/17 = Less deer, but still lots of does always in groups of threes. Glassed a bedded fawn under a bush at 500 yards (nikon 12x50 SE glass) the the other 2 does stood up later, again groups of three. My buddy then glassed up a fork buck at 650 yards at the top of a high ridge. Walked around for a bit and bedded down again after about 10 min. right at dusk and stayed until dark. 12/18 = Tried an area close to the above 2 with great coues terrain(in my pea brained assessment) didn't see squat. wind was in my favor, glassed my rear off and nothing. Dropped into the valley, good wind, found the UDA 4 lane superhighway, crap, no wonder I didn't see anything! Came up into the meadow in a nice bowl I glassed, nothing jumped out, some game trails, sign and a couple of very fresh prints in dust. Other hunters reported similar findings for the 15th and 16th, lots of does and no bucks. 2 UDAs sighted on 684 opening morning. Saturday we passed a truck heading out of our area at 0 dark 30. Not good, they backed off and let us pass, dark smoked windows and no wave or anything, I suspect they weren't hunters. Saturday we only heard 2 sets of shots, friday and Sunday there were none. The only thing I can think of is that the nightly UDA traffic, really bright full moon and daily hunter pressure is forcing the deer to move all night and stay bedded all day. Does that make sense to anyone else. I hope to see more morning activity and perhaps some pre-rut to get things going. Be safe out ther and goog luck (wish me some too, I seem to need it!) Matt

Nothing nearly that interesting! rusted beer cans...how long ago did they use steel beer cans? a muffler, I think it came off a tractor. these were west of Atacosa peak in what appeared to be the remnants of a very old cattle operation. And just Saturday morning I found 80 pounds of marijuana. But that isn't very remarkable, I'm sure whitetail hunters all across the Nation find 80 pounds of weed on a routing basis. Lets see, now I've found more dope than sheds in Arizona. I'd rather find sheds! Matt

Scouted Saturday early. In before dawn, saw 3 bucks, a spike, 75-80" 3x3, and another we couldn't see very clearly. Lots of does and only 1 backpack of weed. Not a bad day in 36b. We were up in the NE portion of the unit so finding weed surprised us all. Burlap rig containing 2 bales of dope around 40 pounds each. 20 miles from the border on the I-19 side of the mountains. Hardly any trash, but we did spot alot of tracks that appeared to be UDA/smuggler tracks. Called BP with the location of the dope. shortly after dawn a BP agent and his dog tracked us down. We could hear him and his truck for a while before his dog led him right to us. He didn't find anything, or any one, else. He thought it either didn't fit on the load truck or the mule got scared and dropped it. Dog was pretty cool, got our scent and tracked right to us. Agent was very respectful, nice and thanked us for calling in the location. He wished us luck and took off. I guess there isn't as much trash that far north because they have already dropped everything by the time they get there. I'd debated taking my oldest boy(8), he is really ate up with hunting, that sealed that. Glad I had the .300 (for lions) and the Glock 22 in the drop leg holster felt a little lighter to hike with after that. Here is the problem. You're driving in at 0 dark 30 on a 1 lane track and drive up on them as they are loading the truck with dope. Not too happy to see you, possibly armed, most likely a bad situation! I'm thinking about writing a letter to respond to the 60 Min. segment on the border they ran tonight. It focused on how the tighter borders have backfired by forcing them into the harsh desert areas. How about my right to take my son(s) hunting that is being trampled on by thousands of UDAs and smugglers? I'd like to see a bit of consideration given to how it impacts us law abiding citizens. When people die doing something illegal, that they know is illegal, my level of sympathy is pretty low. Sucks that you live in a third world country, but that shouldnt interfere with my rights, yet it still does! I hope to get a nice buck, but just coming back unscathed will be a blessing as well. Good luck and be safe out there! Matt

SO what exactly would it take to put up a "Research" mining claim? Gee, I wouldn't mind laying claim to 30 or 40 thousand acres in a nice monutain range in Southern Arizona!!! I mean I'm a pretty smart guy, I'll get a book on mining, a shovel...... Then I've got a couple of mountains full of wildlife at my disposal that is private land. Right? Perhaps we can turn the legislation around on them and tie up all of that land and then use it for hunting. I didn't read the proposals, I'm just thinking out loud. t Matt

36b dec tag+unsympathetic wife = Shooting the first thing I see with bone sticking out of it's head. I hope it's a trophy!

Hunter safety classes seem like a pain in the a$$, but... In November I went to Colorado on a semi guided hunt. Basically I got invited to go with a group that had very successfully hunted that area for 20+ years. I couldn't locate my Missouri hunter safety card from 1982 as a first year Boy Scout so I had to take the Colorado class in order to hunt. Bulk of the class and test were done online with a 1/2 day class 2 days before the season opened. Good class, and was a good review of many subjects. They stressed wilderness survival in class. 1 or 2 hunters die every year up there. They get lost, panic and then make a series of bad decisions and end up dead. I was glad to have taken the class. When the GPS shot craps in some really steep mts w/ tall timber my pack full of survival gear didn't seem so heavy. After 30 sec of situation evaluation, I concluded that I was not lost and that I knew exactly where the truck was. Arizona's infrequent and very high time commitment hunter safety classes seem to discourage people from hunting in my opinion. While Colorado requires the class, they also offer flexible class options and very frequent class opportunities. I'll get the AZ class someday, but work generally prohibits my availability. I think AZ should make the classes more available, isn?t the point to enhance everyone's safety? Not to get bonus points. A good dose of hunter ethics might help a bit also. If my boys ever trampled on someone else?s hunt as in the story, they had better keep chasing those Javalina all the way to Mexico. Because the Butt whopping would begin right there!!! Not that I'll have to worry about that, the wife has gone off the deep end over me hunting this year. I better get a trophy buck fast or this might be the last year I get to hunt!!! My $0.02, Matt

After scouting yesterday, I think I'm nuts for hunting something that I think still may or may not actually exist. If it weren't for sign and a fawn's leg, I'd swear coues deer don't reside in 36b. I didn't see a dang thing, best glass I can beg from friends. I hope things improve next weekend. Nice buck, I hope to have my own to post by New Years. If not, I'm sad and the wife is pissed (already is). To her, the only thing worse than all of this time spent on hunting would be to get skunked! Later, Matt

Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please, Oh Please! Oh Holy Cow...er...Buck Batman!!! Dear Mr. Santa Claus: I've been really, really good this year.......(gee I hope he wasn't watching to closely!) But if God only graces me with a safe return from 36b at the end of December I'll still be thankful. Every second spent in His wilderness is a blessing even when we get skunked. Should He choose to send a buck my way then I?ll do my part. I can't wait till the 16th. The only thing better will be when my boys are of age and can share the experience with me. What a great buck! I'm leaving the page up for my boys to see in the morning. They will be begging to go even more after seeing your buck! Matt

I went to PETA's web site and you can download PDF files of all of their stuff. I couldn't find a hunting version like the fishing one. If you do, post the link. I printed the fishing one out. It is great, I haven't had that good of a laugh in a long time. Here are some links: http://www.petaliterature.com/prodinfo.asp...m=122&mitem=176 http://www.fishinghurts.com/pdfs/DaddyKill...=&id=4334a51a2e You've got to see some of the stupid stuff they put out. Matt

Bret, Just kidding about there not being any elk in CO, just not any around me!!! I was with a group of PA hunters that go there every year for 20+, so they know the hunt and area very well. Part of the selling point to the wife. Fresh snow 1st day, looking good, saw a nice bull, no shot. Then it warmed up. The area and hunt we had depended on a migratory herd that cones down from the really high country after it gets too snow packed to feed. They just never came down because of the warm weather. Oh well, I had a blast in some really pretty country, hiked my a$$ off (literally). No stress, work is a killer with stress. Most of all I learned a great deal from some really seasoned elk hunters. I'll be back up there, but not unless Winterpark is getting hammered with snow early in the season. On to my 36b Dec WT hunt!!! I need something to put in the freezer and hang on the wall! Matt PS I did find a little 4 point shed. Pretty cool to look right at it among hundreds of dead fall trees.

Haven't finished reading yet, but seem to be a nice Coues 36b article for the December hunt (my hunt). http://www.rmgameandfish.com/hunting/white...ing/RM_1105_01/ FYI, Matt PS Through my own personal investigation ($485.00 3rd Elk Season non-resident tag), that there are no shootable Elk in Colorado! Not only did I waste money to begin with, I didn't fill the tag!

36b, Scouting till the hunt. I have a couple of areas we're looking at. I'm looking at the San Luis Mts area as a secondary spot late in the hunt if our first area doesn't pan out. I like the idea of camping in numbers, but we will be farther North. Good Luck! Matt

Just trying to point out what has worked nicely elsewhere. As long as it is called "Game and Fish" anyone who is left leaning will oppose anything that supports the "Game and Fish" department. It's all in the marketing. If it only appeals to the hunting and fishing crowd in AZ the voter base will be too small to get it passed. If it appeals to a larger part of the community who can view it in a positive light also it would stand a chance. I never ment to imply that it was G&F's responsibility to clean the "Crappers". Just highlighting a program the also carries out the same responsibilities as the AZ G&F Dept. and has very broad public voter support. Matt