rthrbhntng

August 24, 25, 26th UNIT 9 WATER CATCHMENT PROJECT We plan to work on catchment #256. This is an old concrete catchment that currently holds about 2000 gallons when full. We will replace the concrete with 3 new fiberglass storage tanks and a new drinker that will have a storage capacity of +20,000 gallons. We will also replace the barbed wire fence surrounding the catchment with a new pipe rail fence. To complete the entire project will require a little more than the two day work weekend, regardless of the number of volunteers who come, because various steps require setting posts in concrete and allowing them to dry overnight before proceeding with the next step. If we can find 7 people who can arrive Friday (August 24), we would have a good chance to get it all done by Sunday afternoon. We will need at least one welder (and preferably 2). AGFD and/or a local company will likely provide one welder. In July, the temperatures should be about 85 degrees in the daytime and 45 degrees at night. Afternoon thunderstorms are likely, so people should be prepared to camp and work in wet weather. We will camp near the job site which is in pine, pinyon-juniper habitat. There will be no drinking water or toilets available. Road access, if dry, is good for all types of vehicles and trailers. If roads are very wet, high clearance vehicles and/or 4WD will be needed. If we do not receive rain prior to mid July, there is a good chance that the Forest Service will close all entry to the forest and we will have to reschedule. If the Forest Service has restrictions on use of equipment, such as welders/generators, that will also prevent us from working on the project. There may be fire restrictions in effect preventing open fires or smoking. Therefore, please have your volunteers provide you an email address or phone number so we can contact them just prior to the work weekend with current road information or inform them if we need to reschedule. TOOLS WE WILL BE NEEDING AND USING. electric jack hammer with spade bit cement mixer welder and welding machine generator screw guns w/ socket sets shovels/picks/hard rakes AGFD will provide the basic equipment for the job, but volunteers might bring: shovels, hard rakes, electric extension cords, ¾” wrenches, electric or battery drill, wheel barrow. People should bring work gloves, suntan lotion, sun glasses, wide brimmed hat and plenty of drinking water. Directions to August 24-26 project and camp: - from Flagstaff, go west on Interstate 40 to Williams. - take Highway 64 exit north toward the Grand Canyon - north on Hwy 64 to Tusayan (about 50 miles) - as you enter Tusayan, turn east (right) on Forest Road 302. - Take Forest Road 302 east for about 13.9 miles until it “T”s into Forest Road 310. - CAMPING – Turn left on 310 and go 0.1 mi. to camp on either side of the road. - PROJECT - Turn right on Forest Road 310. - Follow Forest Road 310 for 2.3 miles. Catchment is visible on the left side of road. CONTACT FOR INFO AND TO RSVP: People can contact Greg Stainton (602) 999-5855 and email gstainton3@cox.net If people are able to attend, it is important that we have a current way to get hold of them, in case the forest is not open. A phone number or email address would be fine.

THE SPORTSMEN / GAME & FISH MEETING WILL BE AT THE LA QUINTA INN ON THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF I-17 AND GREENWAY ROAD! FROM 1-5 PM TOMORROW, TUESDAY, JULY 17TH. PLEASE MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO COME. READ BELOW FOR THE REASON THIS MEETING HAS BEEN SCHEDULED. To All: Bear with me as I try to give you the events of last week and what prompted a meeting next Tuesday (7 / 17) between Sportsmen and the Arizona Game & Fish Department. Last Monday and Tuesday a handful of sportsmen attended the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies meetings in Flagstaff. Part of those meetings dealt with the issue of "Hunter Recruitment and Retention". Two half day (morning) plenary sessions were held, with some excellent speakers discussing the HR&R issues. Those of us who were there were then asked to participate in a Tuesday afternoon discussion about HR&R and sportsmen / department relations and how to improve them! Deputy Director Ferrell along with just about every Division Chief, Regional Supervisor, and many more Department staff participated. We also had Commissioners Hernbrode and Woodhouse in attendance. I believe seven sportsmen participated; which was certainly not enough to adequately represent sportsmen's issues. We discussed many issues, agreed on some, disagreed on others! Central to the discussions and offered up by the Department was "Why can't we get along better?", "Don't you believe we are working to insure hunting and what is best for hunters?", "What do we need to do to improve relations and cooperation?", and others. The discussions lasted for over three hours and as you might guess, not much was settled other than agreement that we needed to meet soon with a larger group of sportsmen and try to focus on getting to the root of some issues and hopefully finding some solutions on how to improve relations. At last Friday’s Commission meeting it was decided next Tuesday we will have a meeting to get the issues on the table and begin to discuss them! Commissioners Hernbrode and Woodhouse along with a large number of Department staff will be there. I realize this is extremely short notice, particularly when the meeting time is from 1 - 5 pm on a weekday. Unfortunately this is about the only day and time, in the next few weeks that would work for many of us. I have heard many of you gripe and grumble about "what has happened to the Commission and Department". Quite frankly, now is the time to bring some of that to the table (in a constructive manner) and get your thoughts out in the open and invite dialogue, out of the public eye, and try to put some of this to rest. Here is your or your organizations opportunity to help clear the air. I hope all of you, I'm pleading with you, to come or have someone come to represent you and give your input. The Sportsmen / Game & Fish relationship is the best thing that has ever happened for wildlife, we owe it to the resource to try and improve our cooperation and get back into a better working partnership. Feel free to spread the word, please do not discount this opportunity!

As far as using auction tag money for water hauling the money raised by the tags that money is processed through the G&F HPC program. It is G&F money that the sponsoring Wildlife group designates goes to HPC habitat projects for that species ie: Elk Tag Funds are distributed and monitered by the Arizona Elk Society in conjunction with the AZGFD HPC committees. Here is a link to the AES website that shows all the AES funded projects up to 2006. http://www.arizonaelksociety.org/fundedprojects.html. Go to other threads like the Super raffle thread and read the posts there about how the money is spent. Go to the AZGFD web site and search on the HPC, Habitat Partnership Committee where the Auction tag funds and money raised by the Wildlife Organizations is spent. Or last but not least GET INVOLVED. The groups spend a lot of time working to sell these tags whether we sell them at out banquet by auction or raffle them through the Super Raffle. We all donate our time to do this. ALL THE MONEY raised goes back to the wildlife through the AZGFD HPC program. In other states the groups that sell the tags retain a portion (usually 10%) for themselves, not so in Az. We spend 1000's of volunteer hours working with G&F, USFS, BLM, and HPC committees all over the state helping to design and coordinate projects and deciding what projects to fund. This involves many hours both at meetings and in the field visiting the project sites. For those that don't know, groups like the AES, ADA, ABA, AAF, and ADBSS are all volunteers, we do not get paid to go out to these meetings and HPC site visits throughout the state, and all the other events and projects we are involved in. There are reasons why the water problem occurred in unit 9. We are as upset as you about the water situation and the fact that we, as an organization that is supposed to be working hand in hand with the department, just found out that there was a problem. The AES is addressing the fact that G&F is behind on the water hauling efforts and is hiring contractors to get up there and haul water. We have located a contractor in Wickenburg are working to get him up there monday. I have repeatedly put my email and phone number on the web for sportsmen to call or email with information about where there are situations happening that are detrimental to elk. Like any other volunteer oganization we rely on the public and our members for information and support. Not all our board members read the internet chat and if you really want to get the info to the AES I suggest you call or email. If you are in the Flagstaff area and know any contractors that would be able to haul water please let me know. We have called a ton of contractors and all of them are very busy. We have tried to find water trucks to rent and they are all spoken for. Keep in mind that we are calling the ones we can locate. If you know of others, make a few calls and then contact us or give us the info. Every time this happens we hear a lot of complaining but get a few calls about help. Alot of you sportsmen think that you have to go out of your way to help in situations but if you think about it just trying to help communicate with the groups and people that are out there doing the work would help. I have seen posts on this web site about the AES shouldn't postpone the project that was slated for the upcoming weekend. We did postpone it to August. The reason we did that was that the Forest Service may have left the forest open but the restrictions on the equipment we were using left us with no choice but to postpone until we could take the equipment to do the job. By the way that info was in the Forest Service notice and anyone could have read it. I am not trying to blast any one person but there are many ways to be invovled in all of the organizations without spending huge amounts of time or money. Communication if the key. We all have web sites with our contacts and we are trying to represent sportsmen. We all have committee persons that only come out when it is easy for them or important to them. In the meantime sportsmen can stay informed by watching our websites, getting on a committee or just sign up for email newsletters. You can also become members and get the quarterly newsletters. Steve Clark - rthrbhntng@cox.net - 602-885-0835

For Immediate Release Contact: Jackie Denk July 9, 2007 (928) 635-8314 Kaibab National Forest To Close Friday Due To Fire Danger WILLIAMS, Ariz. – In order to prevent human-caused fires, the Kaibab National Forest will close to public access at 8 a.m. Friday (July 13)unless significant, widespread precipitation is received across the forest. Four developed campgrounds – Kaibab Lake, Cataract Lake, Ten-X and DeMotte– will remain open with fire restrictions in effect. “While many other forests received rain last week, the vast majority of our forest did not,” said Mike Williams, forest supervisor of the Kaibab National Forest. “We already have a large lightning-caused fire on our North Kaibab Ranger District that we are working to suppress. We want to do whatever we can to prevent human-caused fires.” Once the closure is in effect, all activities will be prohibited on the Kaibab National Forest, including camping, hiking, biking and motorized vehicle use. While Kaibab Lake, Cataract Lake, Ten-X and DeMotte campgrounds will remain open, fire restrictions will be in effect. No fires, campfires, stove fires or charcoal grills will be allowed in the campgrounds. Pressurized liquid or gas stoves, lanterns and heaters meeting safety specifications will be allowed. Generators will continue to be allowed in the campgrounds, but stand-alone generators will be required to be placed on bare ground or hardened surfaces. Jacob Lake Resort, Kaibab Lodge Resort and the North Rim Country Store on the North Kaibab Ranger District will remain open. Also, Forest Road 246 accessing Camper Village on the North Kaibab District and Forest Road 76 accessing Spring Valley Cabin on the Williams District will remain open. People exempt from the closure include any federal, state or local officer or member of an organized firefighting force in the performance of an official duty; livestock permittees; and owners of residences within the closure area. “Our overarching goal is public safety,” Williams said. “While we hope this closure won’t last long, it will all depend on when and how much rain we receive.” For more information, call (928) 635-8314 or visit www.fs.fed.us/r3/kai.

can you chime in on the Az Elk Societies commitment to water hauling in unit 9 and respond to the post called Unit 9 water situation under hunting arizona? Would like to see the elk society step up if they haven't already. thanks Done Sir, Now let's see if the sportsmen community will step up and help out. Every year we hear about the guys that would have helped if they had known what needed to be done. If you have time or know someone that has time get them in touch with the G&F and/or AES and we will try to coordinate some action. Steve Clark rthrbhntng@cox.net

Due to the Kiabab closing the forest this week we are moving the project to AUGUST 24-25-26th. We are sorry for any inconvienience this has caused but hope to see everyone there. Please email or call Greg so we know how many are coming. The Arizona Elk Society will be providing all the meals and need to know how many people will be there. Steve

Thanks for all you do Mike. If you don't mind I would like to use the picture you sent me in one of our newsletters in the future. As a sidenote to all that would like to haul water the AES is having some water trailers built and will have them stationed at some of the AZGFD region offices for the Sportsmen volunteers to use. All you have to do is coordinate with the WMs in the region about where the water is needed, or make suggestions to them, and the public can use the trailers to haul water. They will be heavy duty single axle trailers with a 500 gallon tank and pump. We will be picking them up soon and registering them. Steve

Those of you who are following the Department's move to provide "more hunter opportunity" need to be involved in the meetings scheduled to take place during the next few weeks. More and more the Departments activities are being determined by surveys and public meetings which often have poor attendance. Sportsmen need to show up! Please read the message below, show up at the scheduled meetings, and make your feelings known. If sportsmen do not show up for these meetings, we will have missed an important opportunity to raise questions, provide our input and address any concerns you might have. To do otherwise, allows others to speak for you, and means you will just have to accept the outcome of the meetings! Please spread the word! From: Wildlife Views, May 24, 2007 Hunt structures evolving to provide more hunting opportunities Public meetings set to gather hunter input on hunt guidelines How important is it to you to get drawn for a tag more frequently? A two-pronged telephone and Internet survey conducted by Responsive Management of Harrisonburg, Va., for the Arizona Game and Fish Department shows the majority of last year’s hunt applicants believe that more opportunity to go hunting is essential to keeping them in the game. The department is continuing to address ways to increase hunter opportunity, and hunters will have a more practical opportunity to see their views translated into specific hunt management proposals during the upcoming hunt guideline meetings being conducted in June by the Arizona Game and Fish Department. Those hunt guideline meetings will all be from 6-8 p.m. at the following dates and locations: Pinetop, June 5, Arizona Game and Fish Department Pinetop regional office, 2878 E. White Mountain Blvd. Flagstaff, June 5, Arizona Game and Fish Department Flagstaff regional office, 3500 S. Lake Mary Road. Prescott, June 6, Yavapai County Supervisors Office, 1015 Fair Street. Tucson, June 6, Arizona Game and Fish Department Tucson regional office, 555 N. Greasewood Road. Safford, June 7, Safford City Hall Annex, 808 8th Ave. Sierra Vista, June 7, Buena High School, 5225 Buena School Boulevard. Mesa, June 18, Arizona Game and Fish Department Mesa regional office, 7200 E. University Drive. Phoenix, June 18, Wildlife Building at the Arizona State Fairgrounds, 1826 W. McDowell Road. Yuma, June 20, Arizona Game and Fish Department Yuma regional office, 9140 E. 28th St. Kingman, June 20, Arizona Game and Fish Department Kingman regional office, 5325 N. Stockton Hill Road. Payson, June 21, Best Western Payson Inn (the night before the Game and Fish Commission meeting there), 801 N. Beeline Highway (Highway 87). Page, June 21, National Park Service Headquarters conference room, 691 Scenic View Drive (just off Highway 89 between the Denny’s and the Maverick). The hunt guidelines, which will be brought before the Arizona Game and Fish Commission for approval at its Aug. 10-11 meeting in Flagstaff, will guide department wildlife managers for the next two years when crafting their specific unit-by-unit hunt recommendations. Game Branch Chief Leonard Ordway explains that the desire for big game hunters to get into the field more often is one of the driving forces behind the department’s ongoing efforts to craft the hunt guidelines. Hunters should keep in mind that this is the first year of having the bi-annual hunt guideline meetings in June rather have having the traditional hunt guideline meetings every January. “We are in the process of developing the draft guidelines for the next two years. We want all hunters to assist the department in determining our future in hunting. We welcome their input during the hunt guideline development,” Ordway said. Once the draft hunt guideline package is assembled, it will be posted on the department’s Web site, and the information will also be distributed via the department’s e-news efforts. For those who don’t already receive the department’s free Wildlife News or Hunting Highlights e-newsletters but want to keep abreast of this process as well as receiving other timely information, you can sign up at azgfd.gov/signup.

I have posted a lot of info on another site for AZ sportsmen. I didn't want to repost or retype it all over. This is about the Forest Service Travel Management, retrieving downed big game and dispursed camping. Thanks Steve http://www.azodchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14072

Here is some information on upcoming meetings in Williams with links to the maps of the road closures around Williams. Hello all, The Williams District will host travel management "work sessions" on May 17 to help develop a better proposed action for Travel Management. The format will be informal with the primary purpose of getting specific road comments. We will have maps, flip charts, and comment sheets available. We hosted similar sessions on March 1st, and we received many good (road specific) comments during the meeting and positive comments about the process. There will be two sessions, one in the afternoon 2:00 to 4:00 and one in the evening 6:00 to 8:00. If you are unable to attend and would like to provide road specific comments, you can download the planning maps from our website. The images are small, but the resolution is good, so if viewed in Adobe acrobat, you can zoom in to see the road numbers and landmarks. The link is http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/kai/travelmanagement/documents.shtml The maps are called "Williams Maps for Public Input, North and South" I have attached a copy of the press release. Folks are asked to RSVP by May 16 so we can make sure we have proper staffing. Hope to see you there!

In case you were responding and emailing to this thread here are the emails of the decision maker and one of the Kiabab rangers that is taking comments. Harv Forsgren, Regional Forester, Region 3 hforsgren@fs.fed.us Chip Ernst, Kiabab Ranger District cfernst@fs.fed.us Thanks for taking the time. Steve

I have the Tusayan maps on 11 X 17" format and can copy them if someone that knows the area wants to see them. I will try to scan them. The thing you need to do right now is go to Williams and get a set of the Williams ranger district maps that include the forest in Units 7, 8, 10, 6B and go over them if you know the roads and comment on them. This district is working on the maps right now. If you know another forest and would like to get the maps to comment please call them and ask to get a set of maps. Some closures look good and others don't look so good. Steve

http://www.azgfd.gov:80//outdoor_recreatio...gislation.shtml

The elk tag in your pocket to hunt deer idea would be a rule change and takes a year or two.

Mark I too was at your meeting and I went away with a different take. What Brian was trying to say is that the Dept was going to go ahead with their proposals and not offer the Commission an alternative. His reasoning was that many times when they offer alternatives it muddies the water and the Commission comes up with their own recommendations on what to direct the Dept to do. So the Dept will let the public outcry and the public speakers bring up their ideas and the Commission will amend the proposals if they see fit. Keep in mind that the Commission sets the direction for the Dept. A lot of people don't understand that fact, the commission gives the Dept direction and the Dept comes up with the proposals that they think the Commission wants to approve. Many times I see and hear sportsmen berating the Dept when it was the Commissioners telling the Dept what to do. I'm not saying that the ideas the Dept comes up with are good ones, but the blame for the direction for the AZG&F lies more on the COmmission than the Dept. Steve

We still have a need for more volunteers to sign up. Lots of great food. There is new information posted on the AES website www.arizonaelksociety.org about the June project. Thanks Steve

There is a KOA just East of Williams with storage. Steve

Still looking for volunteers for these projects. Please keep in mind that the Big Lake project is at the Lake campground and we will have time to fish. AES provides the meals for all volunteers at our projects. The Big Lake project is scheduled a week before Memorial Day and it isn't crowded at the lake at that time. Steve

Here is some updated information on the project dates that we need some help for. Thanks to help from many of you, we've been making good progress rebuilding the old water catchments in Unit 9, but there's lots more we hope to complete this fall. Our next scheduled work weekends are Sept. 9-10, Oct. 7-8 and Oct. 14-15. TO ADD ENTICEMENT TO GET SOME HELP ON THE UNIT 9 PROJECTS THE AES AND RMEF HAVE TEAMED UP FOR A RAFFLE OF 4 RIFLES AND 2 BOWS. TO GET A RAFFLE TICKET VOLUNTEERS NEED TO WORK 16 HRS. OR ONE FULL WEEKEND AT ANY OF THE APPROVED UNIT 9 WATER CATCHMENT PROJECTS. FOR EVERY 16 HRS OR ONE FULL WEEKEND WORKED YOU WILL GET ONE RAFFLE TICKET. THE RIFLES AND BOWS WILL BE DRAWN AT THE AES AND RMEF BANQUETS IN 2007. EMAIL GSTAINTON3@COX.NET FOR MORE INFO On Sept. 9, we will continue to work on catchment #372, putting the tops on the storage tanks, building the apron support and building the perimeter fence. We plan to have tanks delivered to catchment #258 on Sept. 8 and the backhoe prep work done on Sept. 9. If these are on schedule, we will install the tanks and drinker at catchment #258 on Sept. 10. Otherwise we will focus on #372. These catchments are fairly close together so we will camp in between and travel to the appropriate work site. Directions to the camp site are: Interstate 40 to Williams; north on Hwy 64; at mile post 224 turn right on Forest Service road 320; east on 320 for about 17 miles to a sign that says "Bucklar"; turn left on Forest road 311 and go about 4.2 miles until it "T"s into Forest road 310; go right on Forest road 310 for 5.0 miles. Camp will be in an opening with large pine trees; you can set up on either side of the 310 road. The roads to camp are good in all but the wettest conditions; you can easily bring trailers or 2WD vehicles. From camp to catchment #372: continue east on 310 for about 0.3 miles; stay on 310 which turns left;( at this point you will need a high clearance vehicle and possibly 4WD to continue); stay on 310 for 1.3 miles and turn left at a junction (you are still on 310); continue about another 1.8 miles and you will see the catchment about 150 yards to your left. Useful tools to bring: 3/4" wrenches and sockets; a battery operated drill; an extra tape measure; possibly an extra wheel barrow. We'll have generators, welders and most tools so you don't need to bring anything, but some extras can help. I'd appreciate an email or phone call telling me if you're planning to come so we can plan accordingly. I'll be out of town from Aug. 31-Sept. 6, so I will get back with you on Sept. 7. My office number is (928) 214-1270 if you need to leave a message. John Goodwin AZG&F The elk should be bugling their lungs out so you may want to bring ear plugs to get a good night's sleep (terrible problem, isn't it!). Hope to see you there. Email gstainton3@cox.net or call Greg at 602-999-5855 for more info or to sign up for future projects. Come out and help on some great wildlife projects.

Most of the groups have reached out to Ms. Martin to congratulate her and vowed to work with her on wildlife issues in our state, as we do with all the Commissioners whether we agree with them or not. To get things done in this state for wildlife we must be able to communicate and work hand in hand with both the commission and the department. Steve

Many of you know who I am and all I would like to say is that many of the groups interviewed Ms Martin and even printed the results of our interviews in our respective newsletters. We asked her the questions you are asking and that is why we chose to support other candidates instead of Ms Martin. As to the issue of Pete's comments they were taken out of context. Many of us that interviewed Ms Martin asked her why she chose to stay at home and quit the G&F and her answer was she wanted to have more time to raise her son. That is where Pete's comment came from, her own admission that she felt she needed time with her family. The comment Pete made was a note that being on the commission was a very time consuming job. Steve

Just food for thought for those that don't think improving habitat will help. Please go to a meeting of the ADA and ask them about habitat. We are loosing quality habitat at an alarming rate to development, invasive weeds, encroachment by PJ and other trees, FS past no burn policies, lack of quality winter grounds, lack of quality birthing grounds, and many other reasons. The ADA as well as other groups are spending lots of money and time improving the habitat. Go to the G&F web site and search on reports of such things as the great growth rate of the mule deer herds in the area of the Rodeo Chediski fire and old burns that the deer have moved into and are flourishing because of the increase grass cover and available forbs. Many of the projects that G&F, ADA and the other groups are funding with there tag, banquet and membership dollars are improving habitat. These projects include PJ thinning to open meadows and encourage grass and forbs, Funding FS burns to encourage new growth, fencing off riparian areas to livestock grazing to let the grasses and plants grow tall for food for deer and cover for fawns, eliminating the expansion of invasive weeds and more. To those that say we need rain to grow forage, you are wrong. Many of the plants and grasses that the wildlife need are naturally drought resistant but have been choked out by encroachment of PJ and the lack of maintenance as in riparian areas to stop the congregation of the wildlife and livestock. AGAIN TAKE THE TIME TO GO TO MEETINGS OF THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE TRYING TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION HERE IN AZ. Take a minute and look at the Burro Creek project that the AES did last year. www.arizonaelksociety.org. We were able to remove 26,000 acres of critical wildlife habitat from livestock grazing. There is a PDF file on the website for all to read. Then email the groups for information and support them. Steve

To those interested Jennifer's confirmation was approved in the Senate Natural Resource vote this afternoon. It was 4 yes and 3 no. Steve

I would like all the sportsmen that read this thread to understand that this is not an "AZG&F" survey. This survey was created by the members of the ADA including Amanda to get the necessary information to take back to the Dept and Commission to let them know what the deer hunters on AZ want. The dept was involved with input on the wording and content of the questions. There will be a link to the survey just like the bowhunters survey but this is a sportsmen survey not AZG&F. All deer hunters in the state need to take this survey so that the ADA can present our case with hunter numbers backing the information. Sportsmen in AZ need to band together now more than ever. The commission has made it clear that those of us that go to the meetings are a minority and without your input we will have little impact on hunting issues in the future. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO BE A UNITED GROUP AND BE HEARD ON THIS ISSUE. THOSE OF US THAT ARE IN THE TRENCHES FIGHTING NEED YOUR SUPPORT AND INPUT. Steve Clark AES, ADA, ABA, WCC, NWTF and more. Join a group and make your voice (or at least your support) count.

Amanda, Give Mike Demlong at G&F a call 942-3000. He is the head of the water development division. If that doesn't work call the WM in a unit that you want and they can help. I also have a list of most of the tanks and what they need to fix. email if I can help. I would be happy to give the list to you. the AES is working on fixing a lot of tanks in elk country so that leaves a lot that need to be fixed in deer country. Steve Clark, Arizona Elk Society rthrbhntng@cox.net