richardoutwest

Congrats on a stud of a deer! Anyone who has ever met Roger would not expect less. Total sportsman in every sense of the word and a person we all could look up too. Congrats to both of them, its way too often these situations turn south, refreshing to hear this one didnt !

My father in law drew 6A early rifle oct 25th - oct 28th. He is pushing 60 and not able to hump the canyons anymore. I am not familiar with 6A and trying to figure out a place that we can hunt him that does not have a ton of people and still be able to take a decent bull. He thinks 360 is his goal, but I am looking at 320 better be unloading. Any thoughts or places anyone is willing to give up for the old man would be appreciated! You can message me thru here. THANKS!

Had a brand new Double Bull blind and an Ameristep blind an a camera stolen from there. All locked up, made no difference. Have several friends that have had the same stolen. No consideration for peoples hard earned money. Just be careful.

Sorry elkaholic, did not see that you had posted it in another post AZG&F in the news 2

Oh but thats not all. AZCentral has more; Controversies dog Game and Fish Department By Dennis WagnerThe Republic | azcentralMon May 27, 2013 10:36 PM The alleged embezzlement of public funds by Arizona Game and Fish Department Officer John Romero is among several controversies to plague the agency in recent years: In 2009, Game and Fish employees were intimately involved in the trapping and subsequent death of Macho B, Arizona’s only wild jaguar. The depth of the department’s involvement and its attempts to cover its tracks only became more widely known over the last 18 months. Last month, Game and Fish Commission Chairman Jack Husted resigned amid allegations that he sexually harassed female employees in the agency. His resignation statement said he was sorry that some people misinterpreted a “personal style of communication” that included hugging and joking. It was not Husted’s first taste of controversy. He previously was criticized for encouraging a juvenile hunter to shoot and kill a prairie dog out of season. Nonetheless, remaining Game and Fish commissioners honored Husted two weeks ago after their meeting in Kingman, giving him a lifetime hunting license. John “J.W.” Harris, the new chairman, said the lifetime hunting license was a personal gift bought by commissioners and presented at a private party. Harris said the harassment allegations never resulted in a formal complaint or investigation, and there was no reason for further inquiry because, “It’s over and done with. He’s resigned and is moving on with his life.” Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Crane McClennen awarded Pinetop-area game Warden Shawn Wagner $100,000 in damages, plus attorney fees and back pay, in December after he was suspended in connection with an elk hunt. The judge ruled the department trampled Wagner’s rights and retaliated against him for pointing out “mismanagement and abuse of authority, and potentially a gross waste of monies.” While off-duty in September 2010, court records show, Wagner went bow-hunting with several other current or former wildlife officers and a local judge. Minutes before sunset, Wagner shot and wounded a bull elk, but the animal ran off, leaving a blood trail that hunters could not follow after dark. Considering the wound to be fatal, they agreed to return at dawn to find it. Wagner was scheduled for surgery the next day, so he left his game tag behind for placement on the carcass. But the elk was still standing when located by his companions the next morning, so one of Wagner’s companions finished it off. According to court records, “All the persons there agreed Wagner had inflicted the mortal wound and thus they considered it to be Wagner’s elk, so they decided to put Wagner’s tag on it.” Three Game and Fish law-enforcement supervisors agreed that his tag was used appropriately. But Romero, then head of Operation Game Thief, concluded there were two potential violations regarding the tagging of the kill with a game tag issued to someone who was not present. Game and Fish administrators, concerned about possible headlines, did preliminary interviews to determine if a full investigation was warranted. Wagner balked, arguing that informal questions violated his rights under state law and department policies. He requested intervention from Game and Fish Department Director Larry Voyles. Voyles asked the state Department of Juvenile Corrections to assign an independent investigator. Wagner was interrogated and given a two-day suspension. He appealed to Voyles, who rescinded the suspension but ordered a new probe by the Arizona Department of Corrections. It resulted in reinstatement of the suspension. After exhausting his appeals, Wagner sued Game and Fish for retaliation and won a $100,000 judgment now under challenge. In 2007, Michael Malik Sr., a multimillionaire Michigan developer and casino entrepreneur, paid $135,000 at auction for a year-round permit to hunt elk anywhere in Arizona. Bidding for the so-called “Governor’s Tag” is conducted as an annual Game and Fish fundraiser. Malik reportedly paid thousands of dollars to a Lakeside man who directed him to a trophy elk in a private meadow just outside of town. Shortly after jetting to Arizona, Malik wounded the large bull, which ran to a nearby housing tract and fell to its knees. Members of the hunting party told Wagner, who was patrolling the area, that they had permission to shoot near the homes. Wagner authorized Malik to put the elk out of its misery, according to Malik’s attorney, Bruce Griffen. Griffen said two shots were required. The rifle reports attracted local residents who loved the elk and were horrified at the spectacle. “Women and children were screaming and yelling,” Griffen noted. “The whole thing was horrible.” Wagner confiscated the elk and issued two citations to Malik for shooting unlawfully within a quarter-mile of an occupied residence. At trial in Pinetop-Lakeside Justice Court, Malik was acquitted on one charge but found guilty on another. Griffen said the conviction was overturned on appeal, but reinstated by a higher court. Malik was sentenced to community service and ordered to write an apology letter to the resident on whose land the elk died. The Game and Fish Commission fined Malik nearly $15,000 and banned him from hunting in Arizona and 32 other states for five years. The elk’s head with velveteen antlers, valued at $27,000, now greets visitors at Game and Fish headquarters. www.azcentral.com/.../20130527controversies-dog-game-fish-department. html Arizona wildlife chief quit under fire By Dennis WagnerThe Republic | azcentralMon Former Arizona Game and Fish Commission Chairman Jack Husted’s abrupt resignation last week came as agency administrators were reviewing multiple sexual-harassment allegations against him by state employees, according to records obtained by The Arizona Republic. Female Game and Fish Department workers reported to a human-resources supervisor that Husted gave them surprise hugs and made inappropriate suggestions. Several alleged that he had “a relationship” and was living with one staffer, says a memo authored by Diana Shaffer, human-resources branch chief. One employee described the alleged overtures as “creepy.” In a statement Friday, Husted said, “I am just a man from rural Arizona where a handshake and a hug and the trading of a joke are part of normal human contact. ... If my personal style of communication offended anyone, I apologize for any misunderstanding.” Husted, a Springerville businessman, also said his April 11 resignation letter to Gov. Jan Brewer speaks for itself. In it, he made no mention of the controversy. Instead, he wrote that he was quitting “to embark on a new chapter in my life, as a private citizen, with time to focus on my family, my faith and my professional endeavors.” But Game and Fish Department officials confirm that Husted had been apprised of allegations against him days earlier and was cautioned at that point by agency Director Larry Voyles against untoward conduct with female employees. Gary Hovatter, special assistant to Voyles, said no formal harassment complaints were lodged against Husted. Rather, Shaffer went on a fact-finding mission because rumors proliferated at agency headquarters. Her memo was presented on March 20 to Voyles, who shared the findings with Gov. Jan Brewer’s staff within days. About the same time, Hovatter said, Voyles told Husted that rumors of harassment were being assessed. Hovatter said Husted was not provided a copy of the memo or given specifics concerning the contents. Hovatter stressed that Voyles works for the commission under contract and has no authority over Husted, so Voyles did not urge the chairman to resign because to do so would have been inappropriate. Instead, Voyles met with members of Brewer’s staff on April 3. Days later, Husted resigned. Brewer’s spokesman, Matthew Benson, said the governor did not ask Husted to leave but accepted his resignation and is comfortable with the inquiry and outcome. “This was handled with great speed and handled appropriately by Game and Fish,” he added. The report by Shaffer describes incidents dating to 2011 and alleges that Husted persisted in advances even after being asked to stop. It also says employees declined to file formal complaints because “they are afraid they will be fired.” “A female employee alleges that Husted came up from behind her with an ice cube and proceeded to wipe the ice cube around the perimeter of her ears,” Shaffer wrote in one segment. Hovatter said no Game and Fish personnel benefited, got disciplined or suffered retaliation as a result of interactions with Husted. Because Husted is no longer a commissioner and the perceived threat to employees is gone, Hovatter said, no further investigation is planned. He added that workers who accused Husted remain fearful of being identified publicly, so further inquiry might “seem like victimizing them again.” The Game and Fish Commission sets Arizona policies for wildlife harvesting and conservation. Commissioners are appointed by the governor to five-year terms. Husted was in his final year. A biography that recently was removed from the Game and Fish website said he is married and serves as a deacon at his church in Springerville. It describes him as a former deputy sheriff in Pima County, past Town Council member in Eagar and a lifelong hunter with strong ties to ranching. Husted also serves as one of about 10 reserve game wardens — volunteer law-enforcement officers utilized by the Game and Fish Department. Hovatter said he has not left that position. As a commissioner, Husted drew the ire of environmentalists for his opposition to protection for Mexican gray wolves and his hostility toward the Endangered Species Act. Last year, Husted gained notoriety when he directed a juvenile hunter to shoot a prairie dog unlawfully. He self-reported the incident, saying he did not realize the season had expired even though he adopted the regulation as a commissioner and enforced it as a warden. Husted complained when he received a citation, which eventually was dismissed by prosecutors. www.azcentral.com/.../20130417arizona-wildlife-chief-quit-under-fire.html Uh, well uh, you know, uh, well its all in a days work, uh. Looks like the heat is on, just betting that there is even more to come!

Public meetings are just a formality, they are going to do what they want. Hunting is a business, and its all about the money. Just look at the amount of tags and the increase in hunts in the units. The working people with kids just can't afford it anymore. But the AZGFD keeps saying to take a kid hunting.I remember a while back I was trying to figure out why tags and licence fees were going up but the AZGFD was pumping hundreds of thousands of dollars in the Ben Avery over the years. Well that was answered when they opened their new office wasn't it. Yup they are going to do what ever they want and make you feel like you have input. I say its about time the public elected the director and have a governing board they have to answer to and not the governor.

Do not dispute the fact that the supervisors bungled the investigation and that is why Wagner won his settlement. Under the law he was entitled to his settlement, just as you or I under the same law and circumstances. With that being said, the managers are entitled to the same settlement as you or I for the same laws and circumstance for breaking the law. And yes they did break the law(s). 654321 is absolutely correct that nothing will come of anything because the court ordered "the Arizona Game and Fish Department shall remove from Wagner's personnel file all references to this matter". From the court records and not assuming anything. Hurst reported to his supervisor (Romero) of possible criminal activity by the managers. Hurst done what he should have done by law by reporting this his supervisor. Romero also did what he should have done by law and reported it to his supervisor (Ordway). Ordway "knew this could be a Title 17 criminal investigation" and went on up the ladder, doing what he should have done by law. That is how law enforcement works, if you are not law enforcement you may not know how the chain of command works. If they had not done anything, they could be also held liable. From the court records and not hear say, I do not see they went on a witch hunt. I also do not see where Romero had anything to do with the investigation that was bungled. He simply did his duty as a law officer and reported the situation to his supervisor. Do you really think a time line would have been missed if you or I were investigated for these actions. They all are seasoned professionals and have investigated thousands of cases and they just happened to miss the time line on this one. If it were not for Wagner suing the AZGFD, would the public have ever known about this? I think not. Nothing will ever happen, but I think the spot light (may be bad terminology, saying spot light) is on the AZGFD now. Like I said, if you really want to bring justice to the managers, post up legal documents proving your side. For now the only one that has brought any legal proof is Bonecollector777 with court records. Until the next time when Bonecollector777 post up more court records........audios amigos

I don't feel like this was a lynch mod Rifleman, Bonecollector777 posted actual court records on the case. Can you post anything, anything at all that is FACT like court records to prove any of this is incorrect? Even AZGFD officers and AZGFD employees such as John Hurst who went to his supervisor John Romero who took it up the chain to his supervisor Leonard Ordway saying "some stuff that was going on up in the Pinetop area" and that it involved several individuals, including Wagner with "some potential (Title 17) violations." Even AZGFD Director Larry Voyles came to the conclusion that this was an inquiry that was criminal in nature. So no it is not just the "internet lynch mob" that sees wrong doing at the AZGFD. No I do not think that this is a lynch mob at all. It simply is law abiding people that want answers to the actions of the managers involved. Its not about casting the first stone or getting a pound of flesh. IT IS ALL ABOUT JUSTICE.

I have found a couple over the years. Guess they are really not that uncommon given where we live. Non the less pretty neat, make your mind start wondering.

Was packed in with a couple of friends glassing this big bowl and glassed a barbecue grill minus the tank. No roads trails for miles. I just laid my head back and closed my eyes for a few minutes.

So I have a question, what if everyone that has been cited for the very thing these managers done made a class action suit to get their fines paid back with interest and their hunting privileges reinstated and so forth?

I do not want this post to be deleted either or the original un-pinned. It is not personal attacks, when you wear a badge, you represent that department on and off duty and are held to a higher standard. That is every law enforcement agency policy in the nation period, ask any law enforcement officer if that statement is not true. Shawn did get a judgement for $100,000, however that was for the way his supervisors handled the investigation and denying his rights under the investigation. The fact that laws were broken by the managers and no disciplinary or criminal actions were taken is unacceptable. No one is above the law, some and not all managers seems to have trouble with this. I personally have seen both good and bad wardens same as traffic law enforcement. The problem is that the AZGFD does not have a governing agency, they answer to the Governor and thats it. Bonecollector777 is showing facts by providing court records, some may not like to read about it or hear about it, but we as stewards of our natural resources need to know this information and hold AZGFD accountable just as they do to us. I applaud officer Romero for stepping up and bringing the criminal actions of his co-workers to light, it takes a lot of balls, he did his lawful duty as a AZGFD officer.

Got it! Thanks to all, I find out more on this forum than when I call by far! Thanks again.......... Gotcoues, I will check into that!

Can someone please explain to me how it is possible to apply on-line for your Javelina tag (or any tag for that matter) and get your second choice when there are a whole bunch of tags left over? This seems to be a more common practice in the past few years. Can someone explain to me how you can go to the AZGFD and purchase a left over tag and receive a tag that is more than the alloted amount set forth by the AZGFD commission? I have pics of three of these. Is the AZGFD just doing what ever they want anymore? i can not get an answer to justify there actions. Is the AZGFD hurting so bad for money they are allowing more than the alloted amount of tags? I guess that explains the TWO tags now? This may only be a Javelina tag, but what about when you do a bunch of scouting for deer, elk, antelope and this happens. You could be out a whole lot of time and money not to mention the possibility of a great trophy.

Can someone please explain to me how it is possible to apply on-line for your Javelina tag (or any tag for that matter) and get your second choice when there are a whole bunch of tags left over? This seems to be a more common practice in the past few years. Can someone explain to me how you can go to the AZGFD and purchase a left over tag and receive a tag that is more than the alloted amount set forth by the AZGFD commission? I have pics of three of these. Is the AZGFD just doing what ever they want anymore? i can not get an answer to justify there actions. Is the AZGFD hurting so bad for money they are allowing more than the alloted amount of tags? I guess that explains the TWO tags now? This may only be a Javelina tag, but what about when you do a bunch of scouting for deer, elk, antelope and this happens. You could be out a whole lot of time and money not to mention the possibility of a great trophy.

Thanks guys, since there is no governing body except the Governor, it is okay to accept the word of the AZGFD. I get it, but when you can call three different offices and get three different answers, it makes me wonder sometimes. They didnt tell you how they keep track?

Yup, clear as muddy water. More than I got when I called. ThomC, you make more since than anything on this page. Tony, 654321, thanks for trying to clear this up. Having bonus points actually hurt me! Even if I was drawn before someone that had fewer or no bonus points, they could still get the 5092 hunt (my first choice) over me because the AZGFD looked at my first and second choice as (one choice). Or if hunt 5091 had filled their top 20% also, it would have kicked me back into the pool and I would have drawn my first choice. So hunter Joe that really likes hunt 5091 and had 2 bonus points and was his first choice, since I had 3 bonus points, I knocked him out of the draw or I have a lower tag number even though it was my second choice. One choice next year, if not drawn, I go get an over the counter tag. 654321, not saying the AZGFD should not try to reach harvest objectives and generate monies. But hunter opportunity, really? There were 10000 left over tags! The opportunity was already there and 10000 hunters choose not to take the opportunity. Selling more tags in units than the allotted amount set forth by the commission is creating hunter opportunity?

Yes I applied on 10-6 by the on line service. Yes there were over three hundred tags left over. The way I read the draw, if the first choice is FILLED then it goes to your SECOND choice. If your first two choices are filled, then it goes back into the drawing. I can't find anything nor have I ever heard of a 20% rule. So if I only put in for one choice and the 20% rule as you stated applied, then I would have not received a tag at all? If the commission needs to sell their leftover tag for "harvest objective" fine, don't sell more than the allotted amount set forth by the commission.

Never an old topic. I have had great luck with two factory rifles shooting 1/2 groups at 100 yards. Grant you not all factory rifles will ever come close but once you find one or two, you just saved you thousands of dollars and have fun doing it. Rifle 1 Rem 300 Sendero, trigger job to 2 lbs, and David Tubbs fire lapping, custom loads, Leupold 6x18. First time out 1 1/2 inch group and never got better. Took it to a gun smith who is a close friend and had him do a fine look over and everything checked out. I called Sierra and asked them, I gave them my load, even though I was shooting 180 Nosler BT and the guy never bad mouthed the Nosler BT. He said he just got thru shooting 300 lbs of powder in 300 win mag and said to leave my load the same and discontinue using the Gold Medal primers and use Winchester WLRM primers but stressed leaving the rest of the load recipe alone. First time out 4 bullet holes inside each other at 100 yards! Holly crap, I thought I knew reloading, never to late to teach old dogs new tricks. Rifle 2 was the last rifle my father bought and before he died, he said its yours if you hunt with it for at least one season. I think he did it on purpose because I can remember talking trash about it when he bought it, it is a Ruger M77 MKII in 300 win mag stainless and laminated wood. I told him I would, and after he died, I took out the Ruger and tried working up a load but nothing that would work on ranges out to 800 yards even after filing the shear down to 1 1/4 pounds. So off to the smith it went, trued the bolt and 47 deg crown. I wanted him to bed the action but he advised against it, he likes the way the forward screw angles back into the action for stability and said it probably wasn't needed. He also said he likes the heavier stainless barrel on the Ruger rifles and said it will shoot just have to play with it a while. Got it back and fired the David Tubbs fire lapping compound thru it and it finally settled in. Today I am still hunting with it, yes a Ruger M77 MKII. My last whitetail was 692 yards with a one shot kill. So with my 2 cents on the table, unless you have a ton of money, find you a good factory rifle and do some final touches and you just may have your 5k to 10k shooter. Most reputable smiths can do a "Remington Tune Up" for a couple hundred and you would not believe the difference. The things that are a must for me on a factory rifle is; 1. Trigger job. Remember less than 3 lbs. is hard to feel in cold weather but you need a trigger that you are not going to pull and breaks like glass. 2. David Tubbs fire lapping. Do some research as some shooters are not in favor of fire lapping most likely because they did it wrong and trashed a barrel. 3. Crown job. 4. Good quality reloading equipment and quality loads!. I have always used good quality brass, case sized to length, case weighted, de-burred inside and out, trimmed the outside of the neck for trueness, squared the primer pocket and de-burred the flash hole, and fire formed the brass. I use Lee Collet dies, not the most expensive but I like the way the collet aligns the neck true on the brass. Once I have done the above, I never resize the case when reloading since they are fire formed to my rifle. Each load is hand weighted, nor every 3rd or 5th, every round! Always be careful when reloading, read the manuals and take your time. It takes me 3 hours to load 20 rounds from scratch and I load like I am going to a bench rest competition. 5. Quality scope and rings, lap them in, best if a smith does this! Leupolds scopes work great. 6. In my 300 win mags, RL22 powder, 180 Nosler BT, Winchester WLRM primers. If it works, don"t change anything! 7 Chronograph you rifle once you establish your load. Use a ballistics program (and understand it) to help get you on paper at long ranges. Understand, temperatures, altitude, slop angle, pressure in HG, ect. changes point of impact. Anyone that tells you they shot a deer they ranged at 400 yards on a 30 deg angle and they held for 400 yards is either telling a story or they got lucky! Not every one may agree with me but it works for me. I shoot one rifle and one load for everything, I don't believe in overkill, I believe in getting familiar with one rifle and knowing that rifle!

This could be a good topic, unfortunately it touches tender feelings to some. I personally do not think G&F is managing the units in the better interest of the deer, Whitetail and Mule deer. We are in a ten year drought (yes from time to time we have a good rainfall) but none the less we are in a decade drought, and more tags than ever. The quality of deer in many units are starting to suffer since the addition to the fourth general hunt, additional muzzle loader hunt, and in some cases another junior hunt. You figure from the time archer season opens until the end of February, the deer are stressed. I asked a game warden last year about the number of tags and his reply was, "I agree we have too many tags and would like to see them cut, but the G&F cant afford it". WOW! I personally do not shoot spikes and forks anymore, it gives me pleasure to know that I could have killed that deer and watch him walk. I like getting out and setting behind a pair of quality binos and watching and searching for that mature deer. To me its not about the kill and not knocking those who want to kill small deer, it is just my small part in helping manage the deer to a better quality.

To everyone.......... Happy hunting, be safe and happy New Year.....Save your firepower for the ANTI HUNTERS Im out.......

That was funny luvdemcoues, no bad feelings, luv ta rib myself. Just be glad when all is over, I really have things I gotta get done before I start my own adventure. Boy that statements open for some hits right there. LOL

Hey Buddy, glad your back, warm in this kitchen. LOL Great intro,I figured your first post would be "ok, I'm given'em 2 days to make any corrections before I post up!" Glad your more mature than that!! Ever wonder why it takes one match to start a forest fire but it takes the whole box to start a camp fire?

What? We have to send all our stuff back couesnaz? That stinks!! And to think this all could end with just one thread! Your right longshooter, ARIZONA 90210. Just gotta wonder how many people have nothing better to do than to watch this thread? Donniedent, you just might be on to something! Cant say what, but it is in one of your post!

Donnie-Donnie-Donnie, you crack me up man! I bet you were a hand full as a kid at Christmas, the suspense of it all............No couesnaz and I are not the same, I am better looking, my opinion but who really cares. Got ta hand it to archeryhuntingnut also, "very inept Sherlock Holmes", I laughed my butt off, good stuff right there! Really Donnie, I know that you will set back and say SEEEEEE, they posted next to each other again, but really don't read anything more into it. When this is all said and done, I hope to met you someday, I really think I would like you a lot!