Rembrant

Salt has been the norm here in AZ. AZ deer don't seem to bait well from what I've been able to glean from various sources over the years. Tell you what, If you found a magic substance that causes Coues bucks to committ suicide, it would be best to keep it under your hat - cause if it became the craze, it would go the same way as the bear bait - illegal. Mike

If you can believe what Montoya is saying, it sounds like what we are calling our whimpy Game Dept held their groung pretty well for seven years. Really stinks they didn't win the court battle too. Mike

One really good thing for sportsmen to lobby for, if this kind of thing happens, would be for new sections of road that bypass the chuncks of private property where the closures would occur. Like Lark said, there ain't that much private property in this state. We just gotta find a way around the closures. That'll take the wind outa their sails. Mike

Oh boy, range wars. A friend of mine who is a rancher started to tell me about this. I didn't know what he was talking about and we didn't have time to talk. I think it's real. I don't know where all these ranches are but I do know that Goldtrap, and Aja Sheep Co are in unit 10. Willaha is up towards the Grand Canyon in 9 and/or 10. I think the mis-management they must be refering to would be the expansion of the elk herds. This drought is putting a lot of pressure on the ranchers. I suppose they expect the Dept to crumble under this pressure. What do you suppose the demand would be? Kill all the elk? Seems a bit illogical to keep the hunters off the land if they want the elk dead. Will they shoot elk themselves, or will they charge money to allow access and/or blackmale the Dept into costly range improvements - stock tanks etc. You know they can make good their threat. Look at all the ranches that deny access to public lands in the southern part of the state (unit 32 being a prime example), just because the road goes through a even a small piece of private. Ranchers do have legitimate gripes: drought, elk, and there will always be butt-head hunters shooting up some property 'cause they can't hunt right. But I think a power move like this is wrong. Once again the average guy will be hurt because of special interest groups (money). If the Dept and the sportsmen take this lying down - again - the ranchers will dictate closers, more tags, fees and other benefits. Or, the cattlemen may have just shot themselves in the foot. Mike

Now that I'm getting to be a crochety old fart, I have had the glorious opportunity to have spent thousands of hours in the field trying to figure the critters out. The things I have learned really aren't that many and they are very dear to me. It seems strange to me that a lot of us pass out the good stuff we know to virtually anyone who asks - simply because they asked. I like it when I see someone taking the conversation to a private e-mail so that the whole world doesn't share the wealth. Especially from now on, where the non-residents will reign in the draw, do we really want to e-mail the good hunting spots to the whole world? It is great that there are people that are less selfish than I am, but does that benevelance have to be in this arena? Are we really concerned about other people's hunts, or do some of us just need to let people know how smart we are? Also, isn't the hunt more rewarding when the field work is done by yourself? Unless you got a broken leg - GO SCOUT!!! Mike

Probably just a bad choice of words on my part, Az Griz. If I'm approaching a spot and someone is already there and waving to let me know, I will go somewhere else. Sometimes I will also do as you described and go talk to them so's we don't run into each other again. This is normal for us. In N.M. from my experience, the wave doesn't mean, "This spot is taken." It seems to mean, "Hey, let's talk for an hour or two." My buddy and I were avoiding folks because their friendliness was cutting into our hunting time. Maybe (and probably) not all New Mexicans are that friendly, but from my experience New Mexicans are a lot more friendly than Arizonans. I'll bet there is not a web site where people from N.M. take a poll of whether or not they should help out-of-staters when they meet them in the woods. Mike

Of course we should help them if they are in need. They are fellow hunters and fellow Americans. And I would give them some tips about where to hunt also (while artfully steering them away from where I want to hunt). I have hunted New Mexico a couple of times for mule deer in unit 2B and get to again this year. It is always a good experience; the hunt and the people. Everyone we run into are really, really friendly. Hunters that you run into on a dirt road or on foot, and even ranchers want to take an hour and talk! I'm looking at a limited number of days to HUNT and these folks want to talk. I was sitting on a point glassing some big country one afternoon, heard noise behind me and noticed two young men approaching the point. I waved to them, which in Arizona means, "I'm here and you're not". But in N.M. it apparently means, "Please come over here so we can glass together and talk for a couple of hours." Best I can figure, is that when you live in a part of this country where the county you live in has fewer people in it than the town of Ash Fork, you actually look forward to running into people wherever you are and whatever you're doing. This is in stark contrast to Arizona, where we are all trying to get away from everybody else. I can't help but feel that we are losing something special in this. Mike

Forgot to log in. As long as I am being outspoken, I should make myself known. Mike

Truett, Get registered, then e-mail me. I'll share a couple of (serious) thoughts with you. Thanks, Mike

All very good points. Thanks for the exchange. Yes, I was being a wise acre in the bowhunting section (sometimes I think I'm funny). I probably should not have included the last sentence about doing your own scouting, and I certainly was not singleing out anyone in particular. This kind of sharing has been going on since the beginning and I have also been a part of it. I had mixed feelings as I typed the beginning of this string and my heart rate increased, knowing that I may be going against one of the basic fabrics of this site, and that what I am saying is really very selfish. I just wonder if it is unwise to give exact directions in an open forum. If you give these kind of directions and only 10% of the tag holders for an up-coming rifle hunt of 300 tags decide to give it a try, you will have 30 trucks parked on the same point opening morning! Hypothetical, I know. But not unrealistic. And if this sort of thing happens, are we helping anybody? Y'all do what you wanna do. I won't say another word about it. Thought it should be aired out a little bit. Thanks, Mike

There are no deer of any kind in unit 23. You must hunt somewhere else. Mike

I am a happy camper. Got a 23 Coues tag. 2nd time in 10 years of trying. And my son snagged a 6B smoke poler. That'll work just fine - was also goose-egged last year. Even before this 10% cap fiasco, we've got way too many people in this state. Guy's, it'll never be like it used to be. Count your blessings. Mike

Wow! Turn up the heat and watch us boil! No wonder other countries never launch an assault on the US (with the exception of 9-11). Just take away a mere deer tag and you might get your face rearanged! I've been reading messages on this forum for two days, and every once in a while I have to check and see if I'm still in "coueswhitetail.com", or if I ended up on one of those other forums. I am thankful that a lot of the regulars are quietly sitting back and letting this tornado pass over. Let's see now... could there be anything good come of all this USO vs. Game Dept business? Maybe a whole bunch of people got ticked off enough to start going to Game and Fish Dept meetings to offer their input. And maybe a whole bunch more people didn't get quite so ticked off but now realize the importance of sportsman's input as opposed to just sitting at home doing nothing. And maybe some existing sportsman's groups or possibly some new sportsman's groups will figure out some ways to make their presence known with the Dept. and on the political front for the cause of protecting our hunting rights. And maybe because of this fiasco the Dept leaders and legal team will handle things like this much better in the future. Here are some other good thoughts: This fight isn't over. There can still be appeals. And the Dept can do some creative restructuring of the hunts to diffuse the problem. Remember when the antis had a judge to put an injunction on some depredation elk hunts a number of years back that stopped the hunts on the first day? Then the next year the depredation hunts were included in the normal hunt structure - preventing an injunction on "extra killing"? The Dept is on our side folks. More good thoughts: The draw for the Coues deer hunts, as well as all the mule deer hunts (south of the Grand Canyon), and the sheep, antelope and turkey hunts will take place as per normal this year. The North Rim/Strip deer tags and all the bull elk tags are gonna be really tough to draw this year. But wait a minute, haven't those same deer and elk tags been really tough to draw for about 15-20 years now? Of course it's gonna be worse this year with all those out-of-state apps in there, but just exactly how many more non-Arizonans than the 10% cap will there actually be? Does anybody know? It'll probably be real ugly for those deer units and a few choice elk units. Or will it? The principle of the matter is enough to get upset about - I agree. But I see us going into hyper-heat over something we can't even define at this point. Yet another good thought: The reason we and all those out-of-staters want to hunt Arizona is a direct result of sound big game management. This is no accident. It seems to me that the Dept could have done a better job of handling this USO situation, yet to those of you who are accusing the Arizona Game and Fish Dept of total incompetence, your thinking is irrational. Mike

Everyone please be careful about making threats in e-mails. Prosecuters have made cases (stalkers and threats to do bodily harm and/or damaging property) by documenting e-mails. The enemy here is money and people's greed for it. The Dept has a need for it but not a lust for it like the other party involved. The Dept's problem is political correctness. They pussy-foot around lions, bears, ranchers, animal activists, sportsman's groups, and judges. Now they're getting bit hard - which means WE are getting bit hard. The Dept is finally upsetting the group that they really can't afford to allienate: the sportsmen. We have always paid the bill, now it looks like we're gonna have to get more involved than that. Kick, scream, yell and raise a ruckess, but do it in a forum that will benifit the cause and not hurt us. Maybe now we'll attend more meetings. (letting USO sponsors feel a boycott also sounds good). We need to let the game Dept know how we feel for sure, but outright attacking them will not help. That is self destruction. You think the Commission is a beuracracy? Well kick 'em out, let the state (Govenor) put together a new agency and THEN see what you got!!!!! We need the Game dept and the Commission. We just need to help them find their backbone - that means support. Mike

Doesn't the Game Dept typically release this monster on a Friday afternoon at 5:00? That way all the folks that get real ticked have 2 days to cool off before they start the annual angry phone calls to the Dept. Am I not remembering correctly? Everybody take a deep breath. Mike

MUST...KEEP...WAITING....

Way to be Mr. Chase! Mike

Good question. My guess is that the moon scape won't be holding too many critters, but the fringes could be special. Because of the negative attitudes that even a lot of us hunters have towards fire, I'd be willing to guess that the few unit 22 tag holders that have the gumption to glass the new burn could be pleasantly surprised. Mike

There are minerals like potash that are released by the fire that ungulates will go to even while the fire is still smoldering. The real return is after about a year when the habitat is regenerating. And then gets better and better in subsequent years - as the habitat further regenerates. Of course there will be mortality, yet most of the larger animals will escape. Even small mammals like ground squirrels can survive the torrent by being underground. Nature is amazing. To say that wildfire destroys the deer, elk and bears is like saying that hunting destroys the deer, elk and bears. Treestandman, it is definately going to suck for a while in your favorite spots, yet as the years progress you will be astounded, and pleased. Mike

Regardless of what is getting consumed, The fire is taking basic elements that are 'locked' into the form of non edible mature growth and releasing them back into the nutrient system. This is good. The habitat will now 'start over', mostly in the form of smaller plants that deer can eat. A deer can't eat an 8" diameter manzanita trunk, but the basic elements that this trunk was made up of is now released to create more palatable bio-mass. Moon scapes are not bad. They will come back. Though it is better if some pockets of cover are left. Deer need food AND cover. A good friend of mine is a rancher in N. Ariz. He told me recently that government agencies don't want him to burn juniper in the summer because "the fire is too hot and this temp will damage the dirt - preventing regrowth". He says this is hooey. The hot fire completely consumes the trees (releasing the nutrients), and the only thing restricting regrowth is lack of moisture. Know why a rancher would want to burn juniper? More feed for his herd. I'm not sure why humans by and large think that burnt looks ugly. We're just not looking deep enough. Like my mom told me when I would complain about the toast being burnt, "Eat it. Burnt makes you handsome!" Mike

I'd feel very sorry for you if I didn't know what wonderful things happen to the habitat - even in as early as one year. I am sorry to hear about your camera. Mike

Ernesto is not the only person with a connection to God. That is open to everyone. Ernesto is just one of the few that exercises the privelige. I pray that God's blessings are on everyone that reads this note - even the guy with the stolen camera. Mike

I snagged a smoke pole carp tag for unit 2. Got a buddy that is a ton of fun to hunt with, but he's a carp man (I try not to hold that against him). Now I gotta suck it up and see what kind of dynamic Arizona whitetail tag I might draw! Mike

I concur with Doug and would add that a Coues antler with that kind of length would have considerably more mass. Mike

Last night I paid a rare visit to another hunting forum and read an interesting string about a coues skull that was harvested about 30 to 40 years ago on the San Carlos Res by a tribal member that has changed hands a few times and finally has been officially scored at 194???!!!! (or there 'bouts?). Mr Kelso and Mr Epperson, will you guys please share with this forum correct information and photos? (Kelso has the skinny and Josh is an all around good guy who won't let us down). Thanks guys, Mike