Rembrant

Allen, Voted in by who, the general public? They'll screw things up as bad or worse than the governor! Guess who voted in our Governor? The general public of the great state of Calizona don't hunt. Just a few of us do. Non-hunters are just a TV commercial away from being anti-hunters. And guess what? Anti-hunters give a rat's butt. They'll buy those commercials. Heck they'll go lobby at a commissioner's meeting! Too bad hunters won't! Governor appointed commissioners is a good'ol boy system for sure, but so far it's still working. Just depends on the Governor. Dang! I write this jokingly, but maybe we could write Ted Nugent and ask him to move here and run for governor. Bet he'd protect our hunting rights and secure the border. Mike

I commend the ADA and all of the people involved in the putting out the survey! You all were doing the right things for the right reasons. We are all very busy it seems, these days, and it ain't easy putting forth that kind of effort on something that is above and beyond all of the normal daily things that we all have committed to doing in our lives. Thank you! Hopefully this is just the beginning of what the hunting public can do to make our voice heard. The problem here isn't the lack of effort from the ADA, nor is it an evil game dept that hates us. The problem is blatetant apathy that plagues our citizens, and it certainly isn't limited to we sportsmen. So, there is somewhere near 100,000 applicants every year for big game permits, the survey involved 6500 people and 20 citizens showed up at the commission meeting? If the game dept were to honor the wishes of the ADA with these kinds of numbers, then the dept would be the kind of organization that a lot of folks accuse them to be - Flakey, irresponsible, spineless, etc, etc. Looks to me like the dept is doing a good job. What did they NOT go through with? Archery elk changes Archery deer changes Proposed numbers on the new Oct Coues hunts (Doug's letter an influence?), AND they reduced the Kaibab doe permits, AND they shifted those youth tags around the state to accomidate our youth. These were some of the common sense ideas that came from the people. I like the way things turned out. And again, I like the way the ADA stepped up to the plate, and again, I hope this is just the beginning of this kind of thing. All that needs to happen is that we spoiled american sportsmen need to realize that the things that have been handed to us in the past will need to be fought for in the future - and not necessarily against the game dept, but against the extremists who will also be pressuring the powers that be. Thanks to everybody who contributed by providing the survey, filling out the survey, went to the meeting and/or wrote the game dept. Uh... Coues7, perhaps you could be a candidate for an anger management program? Mike

Well done Doug! I agree with you totally. Your reasoning on the stratified whitetail hunts is accurate and excellent. I like it! The area I like isn't quite as pockety as 6A, and it doesn't have the easy access (roads on top of all the canyons) like 6A, but the same reasoning would still apply in my unit too. I'm with you. The statification of the central units isn't all bad, but like you said, the numbers could be evened out a little. And I also agree that 10 days in Oct and/or Nov is gonna result in some dead deer. Like I said before - I don't need a Dec hunt to kill a deer. Thanks Doug, Mike

Wear your scars proudly. They are badges of honor. And the chicks dig it. Mike

Thanks for your words Cousi1, but Desertbull is right, we're all looking out for our best interests, and I am no different, I want to go deer hunting. I tend to trust the game dept (how weird is that?). Heck, when they started the draw I can remember what all the deer hunters were saying then, "Whadya mean I can't go hunt wherever in the state I wanna hunt? ya mean I gotta stay in one measly little so-called unit??!" Arizona was decades ahead of their time with this management approach. If other Western states haven't followed behind, they will. I like Dave's long post, and especially the way he ended it: Yep, we're on the same team. And the Dept is looking out for our hunting opportunities, and the protection of the resourse, and heck yeah it takes money to run the dept. If you're gonna dance, you gotta pay the band. The G&F has done unpopular things in the past, but it has always been for the right reasons. I'll say it again, it sucks to see those Dec tags get reduced to 50. If it happens, I'm gonna take that punch to the gut and keep on rolling. Maybe with the changes, I'll actually get a tag every once in a while. Mike

We in Arizona have been blessed, no, down right spoiled with quality hunts, like rut hunts for deer, elk, antelope, turkeys etc. and we have complained ever since the beginning of time that we can't get drawn. If we get drawn, we have a wonderful hunting experience, but dang that Game and Fish Dept., WE CAN'T GET DRAWN!! We talk about sittin out two years after getting an elk tag - we did that. We talk about bonus points for this and bonus points for that. And we talk about those dang out-of-staters gettin our tags. And just did something about that. Now the Dept is offering us tags, and so we switch to camplaining about quality. Yep, sure does suck to knock those December whitetail hunts down to 50 tags! Yep, sure gets crowded on an early hunt - if your disabled and can't walk. Or if your a whimp that needs to be surgically separated from your quad. And yep, it sucks that a survey won't change the Dept's plan. And yep, looks like they're gonna do what they're gonna do. Dang that Game and Fish Dept!!!! But you know what? I don't need a Dec tag to kill a whitetail. Sure I'd prefer one, but I can't get drawn for one 'cept for a tag every three to five years. I would love to get a November tag for my favorite unit on a regular basis. I can work with that. I am still an able bodied individual, I'll get away from the crowd. In fact, one of my older brothers has limitations involving his legs and he got away from the crown on an early hunt last year and steered his wife and two sons into three good bucks on an early hunt. All the quad people were amazed that somebody killed deer. Everyone of them asked. "Hey where'd you get them deer?" I hope that all you guys that are getting ulcers about the new proposals remember how much you hate early whitetail tags - and don't put in for them. Mike

No doubt Clapton is great, but I think that was a little more like Joe Satrianni, Eric Johnson, or Stevie Vai. That kid is extremely talented and has a very knowlegeable teacher as well - probably Vai. I'd buy a disk. Mike

2C muzzleloader, and 9 restricted muzzleloader. I wish everyone well with this draw. Mike

I agree. I asked the Gov to sign the bill because people that I respect, Amanda, Allen, Az deer butt, etc., are supporting it. It seems like Mike Golightly and crew might be stone-walling this for the wrong reasons, but I understand why they are against it. Arizona's Game and Fish Commission is SEPERATE from our state government. Outdoor Writer sounds a wise warning. If legislators call the shots for the Dept., we're done. It don't matter how many people bad mouth the commission, it is set up in a very unique way that keeps the legislators out of it. This is good. The downfall is that the govenor has the power to appoint the commissioners. So, the attitude, or world view of the govenor can help or hurt the commission. Just like the world view of our president hurts or helps the supreme court. This bill is treading on some tricky ground. Precidents in government are important; I hope we're not setting a bad one. Mike

This was a really funny string until it went south. This is a family site, guys. I'm out! Mike

Me too Scottyboy!!! But I sure missed Arizona when I hunted deer over corn in Texas once. Mike

I can tell you one thing for sure, the more hoopla there is on this subject, like open forum discussion, calls to the game dept, word of mouth, and feeding sites discovered in the woods, the more likely the dept will be inclined to take measures to make it illegal - just like bear-baiting. So if your ethics allow you to bait deer, keep your mouth shut - you'll get to do it longer. Common sense, folks... Mike

Quite a story, Bill! Had a mortally wounded bull elk (that my buddy just arrowed) crashing through junipers and charging directly at me until he veered off course at only ten yards. I could see the whites of his eyes, and no doubt he could see mine too - wide with surprise and the instant fear that comes with helplessness. Not quite the same as an animal that is purposely trying to kill you! I have read Capstick's, "Death in the Tall Grass", that I am sure you are familiar with, Bill. Every chapter a collection of stories of mortal encounters with Africa's various dangerous animals; elephants, buffalo, crocks, and the cat stories are especially frightening - lions taking people from their tents as they sleep?!!! So far I am content with just reading about Africa. Mike

The thought of letting nature take it's course and working on its own, like what you are talking about with the lions littlebear, won't work anymore. We've got our hands way too deep into the cookie jar. We are the supreme predators now. We control the wildlife populations. Because of our control, if there were no lions, the deer and elk populations will not overgraze or fall to disease due to overpopulation. But we aren't gonna kill all the lions. We love lions. They taste good too! Lion hunting is an awesome sport and a good business for a few folks like the Eppersons. Lions [/i]do compete with us for the deer and elk. They lean real hard on the deer. Multiple use is where we are today. We share the land and the resources for wildlife/hunting, ranching, mining, timber, recreation, and more. And we make it work - for us. Take the word, "pristine" and wipe it out of your vocabulary. There isn't a place on this planet that hasn't been touched by us and our burning of fossil fuels. God told Adam in Genisis to "Go forth, multiply, and subdue the world". Have you looked around lately? Looks like we took what God said and got 'er done! Your idea of letting the lions manage the deer and elk populations, naturally, is a thing of the past, and today, a complete fairy tale. What are they teaching you at the U of A? Mike

It'll be interesting to see how the survey comes out. You know the Game Dept really wants to stratify all the whitetail hunts. Looks like 90% (or more) of the folks on this site want to keep late rifle hunts only in the central units. That's my first reaction too, but the more I think about it, the more a Nov. hunt in 22, 23, 6A, and other units won't be so bad. If it does happen, it won't be the end of the world. Here are some reasons why: Ifootmatt said, "I got really lucky with a 36C December tag, and it was really dang hard to get a deer. Yea, increase my opportunity to go out and have to work even harder!?" Dude, whitetail hunting in Arizona is always hard, even in December. What do you want a canned hunt? SunDevil says, "I am always very discouraged in the Oct and Nov hunts with all the other people that are out there. It is almost impossible to get away from them." Mr. Devil, If you can't get away from the crowds in an early hunt, then you deserve the quality you didn't work for. SunDevil also says, "My chances of harvesting a buck are slim and a really nice buck non-existant." KGAINES says, "I think they are forgetting that the people that put in for the Dec hunts usually have a high goal, they want a big deer, and it is all or nothing for them, if that same guy has a Nov or Oct tag I would bet that his standards might go down..." Gentlemen, Didn't Reynolds and King kill those giant bucks in Nov and (Oct allegedly) on purpose? Don't knowledgeable Giant Coues killers put in for early hunts because they can find, pattern and kill these toads before they start roaming a little in the pre-rut? Also, isn't December pre-rut and not full blown rut? The rest of the state already has stratified whitetail hunts. How come y'all haven't politicked to get rid of the early hunts that are already there? I ain't trying to change y'all's minds. You already filled out the surveys. I just want to point out that some times when one door closes, another door opens. Early tags are valuable. At least they are to me. I killed my best buck to date in November The Dept is trying to put out a few more tags and you guys don't want 'em. I sure hope I don't see the names in this string complaining about not getting drawn for deer this fall. Mike

"The central units are the last units left with decent drawing odds". I just looked at the 04 - 05 regulations' stats for the year before: 6A=24%; 6B/8=19%; 22=22%; 23=19%. Hovering around 20%. That's a 1 in 5 chance. That means by the odds you will probably get drawn for one of these units 1 time in 5 years. I've been drawn for one of these units 3 times in 10 years. I am way ahead of the odds. If the odds even out on me I'll get 1 permit in the next 10 years. Like everyone else, I want to get drawn more than that. And guess what? The odds will only get worse! So whats the answer? There is no answer to this problem. Give me an early tag. I'll take it. Mike

Well stated Desertbull and Couesn'sheep. Not to just roll over, but times have changed. There are just too many people in this state! We could always count on drawing an early tag on a second or third choice in the past, and now we're lucky if we get an early tag on a first choice! I've been drawn once in the last 3 years for whitetail. I'm 49 years old, an Arizona native, and have hunted almost everything I've wanted, elk, deer, turkeys, for most of my life. Anybody that thinks the hunt structures can stay the same and still get drawn isn't living in reality. Those days are gone! Time to adjust. Treestandman, you are absolutely correct. the bowhunt is worth fighting for, for the reasons you give. But guess what? That awesome timbered archery Coues hunt will be dicovered shortly and folks will be fighting over prime realestate like we used to over bear baits, Enjoy it while it lasts. Mike

I'm not a fan of shortening the archery season. The rifle changes don't bother me as much as it seems to bother a lot of other people. There ain't no opportunity in not getting drawn. Too many people in the state. That's the problem, and it ain't never gonna go away - only get worse. Re-arrange the hunts anyway you want, it won't change the problem. Mike

Not only desperados, but have you ever been sittin in a tree and wondered what would happen if a mean, gnarley 300 pound bear decided to come up the tree and pay you a visit? Ever try to shoot your bow straight down? And what if a hungry man-eating lion comes over from California and jumps on you? Ever try to shoot your bow at something that is on your chest? These things would probably never happen, but it sure feels good to have a handgun on ya. Yep, thank you Game and Fish for a good common sense decision. Mike

Two weeks goes by and this thread gets two responses. We Arizona boys just plain don't know about this do we? I have also rattled frequently from tree stands and have not ever had any apparent response. However, I was stomping around this past Jan. and made several 'stands' to stop, listen and rattle. At one stop, after rattling off and on for about 20 minutes, I heard what I thought was a buck scraping the forest floor. So, I rattled some more and listened. After a while I heard the same thing and then what sounded like the burrs on the antler bases rubbing a tree. This repeated again and then after a while it all stopped. After a while I got up to check it out. Walked back into where the noise was coming from and didn't find a scrape. Got impatient and left. The more I think about it the more upset I am with myself that I didn't look harder to verify what I thought had happened! There exists TONS of literature on this subject written by hunters East and North of Arizona. There are lots of variables like pre-rut, rut, and post-rut behavior, as well as population dynamics like buck to doe ratios. We could get educated if we half tried and then try to apply the knowledge to hunting our whitetails. I have a gut feeling that good things would happen if some of us dwelled into this a little deeper. Mike

Thanks Keith, I'm glad I'm not the only person in the world who is seeing that. Mike

I think it's George Bush's fault. Mike

The non-game branch is funded by the Heritage fund generated by the Arizona Lottery. What else would you do? Mike

Lark, What would the new Game Dept look like? How would you have it structured? Who would be on it? How would they get there? What would you want them to do? Mike

Come to think of it, December is pre-rut for whitetails anyway. Aren't a lot of the biggest whitetails killed in Oct or Nov when they are more predictable? I am more disturbed about the archery elk hunts getting moved out of the rut. But then again, I can't get one of those tags any more either! Seems that half the guys on this site want more tags and the other half don't want more tags. There is no united voice - not that I can see - except the commission. They've been heading this way for a long time. I'll let the dust settle, and then go hunting... uh... maybe. Yeah maybe I'll get a tag. So if the Game Dept changed, Muley, what in your estimation would those good changes be? Mike