Alpinebullwinkle

Believe it or not we once had a rattlesnake there try to get into our boat from about 100 yards off shore. The girls scrambled to the rear of the boat while I gave him the ore treatment from the bow. Luckily I prevailed. It was a year about 1980's when the water rose quickly and must have washed the snakes out of their dens. Never forget that crazy day!

Haaaa. I took some pictures also of this bull for Ernie and he had them published in a NM magazine article. Those mountains should look real familiar to you NTS

I expect you are correct Flatlander about the units 1&27. In 27 they have added 350 tags or about a 40% increase. The result has been a big decline in the herd size and due to the better sight clearance and changed food supply a greater amount of larger bulls have been harvested in the late gun hunt....whereas pre-Wallow Fire a 340 bull at that time was a monster. Add in more wolves and harvest statistics along with quality have really gone south the last few years.

Good mass, above average 3rd's but short beams. Can't tell the spread or body size. Guessing he will be +330 and 350 maximum

I like the uniqueness of that mature bull

I prefer to hunt elk in or near their bedding zones so we normally have to thread the needle thru thick trees or brush to make the shot. For that reason I always have a 20 yard pin on my bow.

The aha I have noticed since the 2011 Wallow Fire is the forest is still losing perfectly healthy green trees blowing over under wet conditions. I guess the explanation is with most of the surrounding trees burned there is less resistance against the wind or greater gusts that are still taking out perfectly healthy trees. I see toppled green trees everywhere in the forest unfortunately........thanks to our past forest management practices!!

Remember the road is now paved all the way to Big Lake from both Springerville and Alpine routes

Yes I believe New Mexico added the mandatory reporting requirement about 4 years ago. I'll bet it is real effective getting the reports now that it is no report.....no tag!

Another element of the hunt I have noticed over the last 40+ years it seems a big percentage of the tag holders will only hunt the first three day weekend and then go home due to vacation limitations or other family/work obligations. That should factor into the hunter success ratio but not sure how accurate that is being reported.

Well my great grandma finally drew her first archery bull tag after putting in for numerous years unsuccessfully. Since I'm 67 I guess I better start going to the gym to get in shape by September. What puzzles me the most is my dog named "Bugle" has been putting in many more years than great grandma and still hasn't drawn his first tag yet! Please keep this methodology of applying top secret as hopefully someday soon I will draw an elk tag again....before I head for the happy hunting ground.................and yes I started drinking when I looked at my portal today!!!

Most interesting is I am still using 1960's and early 1970's calling equipment for September hunts. It is working better than ever and now calling in 370 to close to 400 class bulls when it never used to the previous 40 years. Thanks to all the new commercial calls and the hooche mamas that have been turning the elk into stage right direction the last few years! Sounding different than all the other hoaxes is the best advantage I now have being a geezer with a shorter teather!

Best I can tell is we have had about 4-1/2 feet of snow in Alpine this winter (counting about 5" a few days ago). But that is about the same amount of snowfall I documented for last year as well. Years ago we used to have significantly more snow.......some years between 8'-12'.

Some young'uns on this board may not be aware that in the 1970's (when I first started applying for elk) AGFD did have the system previously discussed whereby when you successfully drew a tag you had to wait until year three to reapply for your next elk tag. I really didn't mind that system at the time because I was drawing a tag every 3 years compared to every 6-10 years now! Things have changed since then with many more hunters putting in for less tags in most units. Also, archery elk hunting interest has exploded. In the 1970's and early 1980's it was real easy to draw an archery elk tag. Much different than the current situation unfortunately. That's why I look back at the 1980's and 1990's as the best era for elk hunting...... with the peak elk herd size, and great chances to elk hunt year in and year out.

AZNative- Ahhh yes the old barrel system provided me a lot of elk tags by taking advantage of centrifugal force and putting in my application on the last available day! My % of successful tags has taken a significant hit since that darn computer took over for the old barrel system. Of course giving up the late gun hunt to focus on September trophy hunting also has played a part of me being less successful drawing elk tags the last 27 years. I'm somewhat gratified now if at least one family or friend draws a September tag to fill that important void!

Well I'll offer my aged input on this "annual discussion" one more time for the record this year. IMHO our current draw system is about 60% luck and 40% mathematical statistics considering how the bonus points factor into the equation. I've said annually the system could be improved if the numbers were inverted..... whereby the system was more 60% mathematical bonus point driven....... but still retaining a 40% or so element of luck. This could be accomplished by squaring the bonus points and I have statistically proven it to AGFD. They have not shown interest since I first proposed it about 12 years ago. The luck of the draw is hard to swallow sometimes. For example I have personally been very lucky drawing elk tags in my lifetime.... whereas my brother has drawn only 4 tags in 46 years of applications. Additionally, I am aware of many friends that once they draw a September elk tag (which you all know is challenging) they often then draw 2 out of the next 3 years. I have formerly guided two hunters that drew September gun elk tags with less than 2 bonus points. What also makes the unsuccessful tag applications tough to swallow at my age is knowing you may never again be drawn in our lifetime! There are numerous options to improve on our system even though I and many others think it is superior to many other state draw systems. The hitch is..... that when I have suggested improvements in the past the majority of hunters in public meetings and on this forum seem to prefer the current system and current luck verses mathematics ratio in the formula.

I tend to want to believe the story of getting an early elk hunt with a 3rd choice. The reason being is that one year I was awarded two elk tags for the same archery September hunt. Computers sometimes make mistakes.....just like humans I guess! I have also heard the same story at least two other times but never could confirm with documentation.

Scheduled an appointment with a psychiatrist for April Fools Day in the event I strike out for the 6th year in a row for no elk tag........check!

One year while elk hunting the San Carlos Reservation I had one of the Indian cattle break into my ice chest while I was away. Caused a lot of disgruntlement among the neighboring bears as they thought that cow was "cutting their grass" !!

AGFD doesn't even enforce the "no camping within a 1/4 mile of a tank". Do you really think they would try to enforce hunting within 1/4 mile of a trail camera that is even harder to find?

Being and ole geezer I am thankful to AGFD that we now find out elk tag success/failure by late March or early April. In the 1970's and early 1980's we had to be much more patient and would not find out the important outcome until usually late July. Made it tough on planning hunting vacations that late for families and took a lot of the preparation fun out of the event.

I had a black belt expert run the math. Basically it just tightens up the bell curve by eliminating some of the luck.

Good explanation 654321. To explain it differently if you are some one like me that mostly applies for September archery tags in the squaring system of bonus points I would expect to get drawn every 4-6 years verses the current system where my realistic expectation is every 6-10 years. Less luck and more bonus point impact which is fairer for all considering some people are just much luckier drawing than others.

I too am from England, Irish, and German immigrant decent. Our country was founded on this premise of immigration. I can't see how anyone can deny this heritage and not be supportive of future immigration privileges........"legal immigration" that is. Surely Trump supports this. Unfortunately this issue has been highly politicised by the liberal left. After all the legal immigrants that have followed the process and more importantly the legal ones that are currently standing in line to become legal immigrants it is totally wrong to disrespect the legal immigration policy and push those diligent people to the back of the line. Republicans (which I am a member of the party) need to do a better job of communicating the sidebar issues surrounding immigration. It is common sense......includes public safety..... and should be an easy issue to resolve if Republicans would just communicate better over the ridiculous politically oriented quacking from the liberal left!!!!

I also heard the "one deer kill per week per lion" quote frequently from many reputable guides and ranchers back in the 1970's. Not saying it is gospel..... but I don't think it is too far fetched. I find it interesting that the mule deer population started its severe decline about the same time the trapping laws were changing. Also, when that timing happened, my outdoor experiences went from viewing only about one lion per year in the 1970's to over 10 lions per year in the 1980's and beyond.