Alpinebullwinkle

Stated differently we do have a legitimate travel management issue with ATV's to address. But it is very "wormy" of the USFS to use this issue and now the devastating Wallow Fire to help achieve their unwritten agenda of closing off most of our national forest to the public......areas we have had access to for +40 years!!

I agree we need to have some new rules to protect the forest from increasing ATV use. Having said that circumstances are much different in the forest than the damage most of us all acknowledge in the desert. Like previously stated some of the freelancing or most all IMHO in the mountains is a result of the USFS closing off access to areas we have traveled for 40 years in our vehicles and sometimes 20 years in our ATV's. I like to consider root causes in addition to the obvious that is in front of all our faces!

Amen Bill. I am also with you. Even though I have two ATV's I only use them where possible to retrieve game. Like I said I hate to bump into other hunters riding ATV's. That is not the issue though in my mind. The issue is closing 90% of the roads so most of us do not have truck access to hunt, fish, or wildlife view the areas we have had access to for 40 years. These changes will basically make the whole national forest "wilderness designation" which circumvents the long standing processes established and ultimately becomes very discriminatory! A very devious strategy by USFS and extemists that apparently some of us hunters "without vision" have not yet recognized. I'm guessing as you get older your vision on this issue will become clearer!!

What makes you so certain the USFS is "more qualified to tell us what to do" ? After all .....it was their ill-advised decision to allow open camp fires which ended up with two irresponsible campers being partially responsible (along with the USFS) for burning down over half of units #27 & 1 last year!

A few years ago I found a 7-point bull shed that I estimated would have scored +400 with both sides. I literally made 25 additional trips looking for the other side match .....unsuccessfully I might add.... before I finally waved the white flag and gave up for good. If any of you have the other side let me know. It was down on the Blue in unit #27.

"Use the Quads God Gave You!" That sounds like a statement "stupid me" would have said when I was in my 20's. I get as frustrated as many of you hunters when I make a great effort walking and then find another hunter that drove in on a quad from an unknown access. Having acknowledged that I'll give you another (factual) side of the issue. My family has enjoyed driving the logging roads either hunting, fishing or simply wildlife viewing for over 40 years. As Bill Quimby stated each forest map update shows less and less roads out there. It is part of the USFS devious strategy to reduce most access to our National Forests and in many peoples opinion to eventually keep us all out of the forest. Even before the devastating Wallow Fire our Forest Service had mysteriously closed about 50% of these roads within the last 10 years. In their Travel Management public meetings they shared new maps suggesting that 90% roughly of the roads in unit #27 would be closed if they get their way. Road closures are supposed to require public input first but that has only happened in just a few cases. When challenged the USFS has stated these were "temporary roads constructed for logging purposes" in the 1960's and 1970's. Like I said we were "temporarily allowed" to travel these roads for over 40 years and now deprived the privilege because of an agenda that is not aligned with probably 90% of the public. What I have noticed is these closures have resulted in many of the public freelancing and making their own roads. This is wrong.....we all know....but the root cause is because of the USFS closures, which they also should be held accountable for. Many of these closures are well graveled roads with NO JUSTIFICATION for closure. The USFS is also proposing closing many roads on the perrifery of the Bear Wallow Wilderness (one road about 10 miles in length). What this would accomplish is making the BWW about 40% larger in wilderness area without following proper proceedures established. Sound devious by them? It is!!! And factual if you look at their Travel Management map proposals. Yes it very easy and perhaps narrow minded to say "use your quads God gave you". Fact of the matter is after all these roads that have already been closed and all the additional ones the USFS has on their agenda to close......that 90% of the public will be kept out of the forest or deprived of the privileges they had a few years ago. Excluded from walking access (or horseback) will be the aged, young kids, some women and the handicapped. Sounds very discriminatory doesn't it? That's because what they are doing IS discriminatory....... and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Very interesting post. Thank you for your efforts in sharing. I can add a little bit of local history to this story. Jess Burk whom homesteaded the Beaverhead Ranch in unit #27 found two sets of Merriam elk racks in a cave off Buckalou sometime in the 1920's. These racks were handed down to his nephew, Jim Grammer, who bought the ranch from his relative some time in the 1950's. Unfortunately Jim passed away last year at the age of 86 but told this story to our family many times. Jim ended up with both sets of the Merriam horns given to him from his Uncle Jess. Jim ended up donating one set of horns to the U of A college and received a scholorship for his daughter in return. The other set of horns made its way to the Smithsonian Institute. From what I have read most of the elk in the Alpine District were whiped out when the pioneers arrived in the late 1880's. The winters were very severe and the elk and deer were their primary food source for survival. The settlers and ranchers that ended up in the area did an efficient job of predator control for their ranching efforts so when elk were reintroduced they actually have thrived better than ever before in history.......that was until about 1999 when the current elk herd hit its all time high peak level. Since trapping was banned and now that the wolf reintroduction program gained momentum in the late 1990's the predator situation now mirrors more of what district looked like prior to the settlers arriving. As a result of the increased predation our elk herd in unit #27 is now about half of the peak in 1999. AGF data confirms these numbers also.

That spring looks familiar to me and if it is in unit #27 I have been there many times before. If it is the spring I'm thinking of the elk migrate away from there about two miles for their rutting activity.

Yes it seems like we are losing more rights by the day in this country. Not the kind of change I was endorsing in the last election or will endorse in the upcoming election!

Yes Bill it almost appears like the Wallow Fire was purposely planned by USFS to accomplish their goal of closing most of the roads. Before the fire they had to have public meetings to close the roads but now they are closing all non-major roads under the guise of "public safety". The berms they are placing and tree bases strategically placed suggest to me they have no future intentions of reopening these roads. I sure hope some outdoor groups like AES and AZSFW will challenge the USFS on this or we have lost another battle to the left wing extremists groups.

"Most of the most popular areas in the Wallow Fire perimeter were not damaged by the fire". I almost choked on my breakfast when I read the above quote from the USFS on the internet. They started lying to the public immediately after the fire was started and continue to lie to our face one year later. They should be ashamed of themselves but apparently they have no conscients!!

Return of more deer and elk is also my hope as one of the few positive results from the devastating fire. Unfortunately it looks like most of the predators survived so we should have near record birth rates but to be determined how many of the offspring survive. There will be more cover for turkeys but significantly less cover for the deer and elk. I think that might be why they have become uncharacteristically reclusive this year. Mostly nocturnal I'm guessing since we are seeing much less animals but the tracks are there.

Liberals that have infiltrated our US Forest Service and Arizona Game and Fish Department owe us outdoorsmen an apology. Thanks to the poor USFS management we lost about half of our national forest in units #27 & #1 last year due to Wallow Fire.

Ever think maybe the secret service might ought to investigate Obama first? After all.....Obama has been the most deceitful, divisive, and purposely destructive President in the history of our country. The irony is he also is a racist that has destroyed the progress our country has made in that area the last 30 years. The worst concern is there are about 50% of the population now taking some form of subsistence from our governmnet that still might be inclined to vote for the terrorist again!!

If Obama's backers try to persecute Nugent for being honest and speaking the truth it will eventually come back to haunt Obummers campaign efforts

"game and fish has it right it combines luck and dedication to give you the best opportunity for success". Your quote above is a pretty good way to express the current "bonus point system". All I am proposing is simply squaring the bonus points to 1) make the current system slightly less luck and more emphasis on earned bonus points. It would certainly be more fair overall to all applicants and still have the element of luck to keep everyone interested and invested!

Sorry for a few typos in my previous post. Bottom line our current system is more about "luck" in the draw than bonus points providing much "bonus" and improved odds in drawing a tag. This statement is not begruding as I have been probably in the top 90% for "luck" drawing tags over my 40 years (applying for bull tags only). I just hate to see how disappointed many of my relatives and friends are at this time of the year. By the way.... I drew September archery bull tags the last 3 out of 4 years so my concerns are not about me!

I am aligned with the above post. Having said that it appears many readers are misinterpreting many of our comments. I am against the waiting period we used to have back in the 1970's. But I am all for a renewal of the bonus point system to make it more effective and fair for all. I never begrudge anyone getting "lucky" and drawing a tag but when I have an idea to enhance the current system I feel compelled to share with all in hopes of improving the system we have. -I once was drawn 11 out of 12 years for bull tags (one year AGF sent me two tags!) -I guided a 17 year old boy that drew 7 successive bull tags (many were September hunts) -I have a brother that has applied for 40 years and drawn 4 bull tags -I have an 82 year old father-in-law that has drawn 5 bull tags in 60 years I can't see how considering the above testimonials how anyone can rationalize that the current bonus point system is "fair". I frankly is mostly luck and the bonus points are fairly ineffective until you get almost two digits of them accumulated. The AGF has admitted to me your chances for a bull tag go down when you get to 5-6 bonus points because at that point people have waited so long they decide to hold out for a more preferred September hunt. Squaring the bonus points when definitely make the points more effective. Instead of having to wait 10 years or so for a September bull hunt you could count on drawing a few years sooner. The lucky 17 year old I guided would probably only have drawn 4-5 out of those same years instead of 7 for 7 with the tighter bell curve and bonus points that are more effective from squaring. I can't understand why AGF or any hunters would not endorse that enhancement to improve everyone's odds over a 5 year span vs. waiting for 10 years or more.

I have to agree with Mike above. With a little tweaking the bonus point system could be enhanced (squaring bonus points to make them more effective). A few years ago I guided a 17 year old boy on an archery bull hunt that had been drawn 7 successive years (every time)and most of his hunts were September hunts! On the contrary my father-in-law is a native Arizonan 82 years of age and has only been drawn 5 times in his lifetime and never in September! I don't know how anyone can rationalize that the current system is "fair" with both of those true testimonials. I'm still a proponent of squaring the bonus points to tighten up the bell curve and make the draw fairer for all.

Our whole family of 7 struck out for all the hunts we applied for in unit #27. Luckily an outfitter called me and asked to guide a dude from Pennsylvania that drew archery #27 so I now have a business reason to go out into the woods to get lost and also get some exercise all summer.

Like Bill stated we used to have the wait 3 years after a successful draw as part of our system in the 1970's. I didn't like it any better. AGF didn't like it I'm sure because it excluded revenues from those that had to wait 3 years. Someone else mentioned squaring the bonus points to make the points more effective. I have suggested that to AGF for many years now and they either don't understand it or don't want to acknowledge it as an enhancement. I had a black belt data expert run the numbers and it would definitely tighten up the bell curve and make it more fair for everyone. Maybe someone else can explain why AGF is not receptive to this guaranteed enhancement.

I once saw an elk in Phoenix.....but he didn't have any air in him!

April 13...4:00 PM

What does the above statement mean? Were you aware that we now have a great % on non-hunters and fishermen as employees of AGF......particularly in leadership positions? That is one reason we have the ill advised wolf reintroduction program and most of our streams in unit #27 no longer available to the public to fish in!