Alpinebullwinkle

A lot has changed since you turned your head Zim. If you educate yourself I believe you will be pleased with the recent changes (over the last year) by AZSFW.

Awesome bull. He seems to be one of the older bulls I have seen with such distinct palmation. Most bulls I have seen that even approached that much palmation were much younger. Sure would be interesting to understand what caused his uniqueness.

Unit #27 lost about 50% of its "green" real estate to hunt due to the Wallow Fire. Unit #1 might be more like 25% less huntable area due to the fire. This year it resulted in concentrating hunters more so and led to more hunter confrontations that many have reported. The calf crop did not increase as expected this year maybe due to fire stress from last year. Hopefully in future years we will see the increased calf crop that is expected with more forage now available from the fire.

Great buck....one to be very proud of the rest of your life! Nice job.

I have always historically hunted the remote areas...one key reason is to avoid all the issues mentioned above...as well as for hunting top quality animals. Only had about two confrontations as a result in 40 years of hunting. Unfortunately now that we have lost about 1/2 the hunting real estate in units #1 and unit #27 due to the devastation of the Wallow Fire, these confrontations have a greater chance of occurring now. My only point is we cannot "legislate" our way to a perfect solution any more than we can legislate safety for the NFL (which is ruining the game). We have recently seen how well legislation has (or has not) worked in the financial community. Soon unfortunately we will find out how much more gun regulations will work or supposedly add value. I'm for applying more common sense, courtesy, and tactical procedures rather than more regulations that history has shown are often ineffective in most applications.

That is really special to be with your son and help him get his first score. Congratulations.

Very proud of your effort and hope you are successful finding the owner.

Aaron I gave you a PM email with contact info if you should like to have further dialog.

I agree that it seems like the "new regime" has not been mentored well about keeping our forests free of trash. All our hunting clubs as well as AGFD need to communicate with forest users about packing in.......... packing out......... personal trash and normal etiquette.

Without question predators have had the biggest influence on why we have such a disappointing deer population. In unit #27 they even had a doe hunt during the 1960's. Of course that was before trapping was banned. There is not a shortage of food or water in the high country of unit #27 but there definitely is a shortage of deer which I question why we even allow hunts in the area.

I live in Alpine and have spent the majority of my weekends in unit #27 since the early 1970's. Usually spend over 150 days a year enjoying our national forest (in some rather remote areas) and have participated in some form in almost all bull hunts in the unit that entire period of time. So I feel compelled to add my 2 cents worth in this interesting conversation. First I would like to congratulate Aaron for sharing his input on this forum. I would also like to congratulate the AGF Department for their increased efforts to communicate with their stakeholders. Admittedly I share some of the concerns that have been previously shared and have voiced my opinion discretely in the past with them. But I do realize that with so many diverse stakeholders it is impossible for AGF to please everyone. AGF has definitely made a better effort with their stakeholders in recent years and one great example is many of the game wardens have joined our outdoor clubs and are very active supporting our activities. This is a very positive change from years ago IMHO. With respect to unit #27 elk herd dynamics the herd numbers peaked around 1999. IMHO the wolf reintroduction program and excessive cow elk permits have resulted in the current herd size being about 1/2 of the 1999 levels. I wish the August cow hunts would be totally eliminated because often the survival of a less than two month old calf from the previous October conception is jeopardized due to the high predator population and minus the protection of the mother. In those cases the herd is often reduced by two when the mother is harvested in August. To balance the bull cow ratio that Aaron referenced as a goal I would rather see an increase in cow survival and herd size although you will never hear me complain about more bull hunting opportunities. I would like to see the AGF allow the herd size to approach at least 75% of what we had in 1999. That would allow more food for the wolf reintroduction program (which I am strongly against), but would also ultimately allow more overall hunting opportunity. I know the herd size has been purposely reduced to appease the ranchers but with the normal dry cycles of our Arizona desert weather patterns ranching seems like it was always hit or miss dependent on those weather cycles. My family and friends that visit Alpine miss seeing the large herds that used to sometimes exceed 200 in the 1990's. Now if we view a large herd it almost never exceeds 60. Additionally I have found numerous carcasses of elk that obviously burned up in the Wallow Fire. Only one has been a bull and over 20 were cows which seems logical to me that the cows that were dropping their calves at the time of the fire would have taken a worse beating from the fire. I agree with Aaron that we do have a shortage of cows compared to years past based on what I see during the hunts and complaints from the cow hunters. I am most concerned about the calf survival rate that I have viewed which has been about 20% or less at least the last 5 years. I remember on good years seeing close to a 50% rate of survival. This year was an unpleasant surprise as I expected a 50% or better survival rate due to the optimum nutrients left from the fire. Not so unfortunately which suggests to me that predators are a more significant problem than possibly acknowledged. With these nutrients and strategic rainfall we received, this year should have been the best calf crop ever but unfortunately not so. In years past I have proposed to AGF that they could easily increase hunter opportunity for the late bull unit #27 without negatively effecting the herd dynamics. With the normally inclement weather and now that the hunt is one week later, lessor road access than other units should allow more hunters an opportunity at this time of the year. Granted success rate will be much lower and more hunter confrontations due to the limited road access but more hunting opportunity can be achieved at that time if hunters are willing to put up with a few other sacrifices of comfort and get out of their trucks for short hikes. With respect to AGF possibly being more focused on managing $$$ rather than wildlife well I guess I have made that accusation in years past as well. After much consideration I realized due to the limited revenue streams that AGF does need to do a good job of managing $$$ if they are to optimize their success managing our wildlife. Having said that I have less sympathy since they chose to support the rediculous wolf reintroduction program. That just suggests to me that they are not concerned so much about the cashflow drain from that program and devasting impact it has taken on our elk herd size. When I suggested to AGF that us hunters have probably lost about 40% of our elk tags in unit #27 due to the wolf program I did get some acknowledgement from some department officials. The wolf program is a failure, waste of money and needs to be discontinued in my opinion. The root cause for the extinction of the wolf in our area has only worsened. Besides the grey wolf was not native to our area!! The frivoulous spending on this program needs to stop. Aaron I have talked to the USFS about their admitted desire to reduce the elk herd due to their concerns of negative elk impact on aspen trees. I've encouraged them to look at the areas around Hannigan Meadows where the previous Steeple, KP and Thomas fires have burned the last 10 years. The aspen are so thick that hunters and hikers have a difficult time walking thru the former burned areas. There also happens to be high concentrations of elk in these areas. We do not have to reduce the elk herd to save the aspen trees......unfortunately the Wallow Fire addressed that issue last year. There will never be enough elk to make a dent in all the new growth aspen trees that propagated due to the fire!! Please we do not need to "stabilize the elk herd" that has already been reduced by 50% from the high point of the late 1990's. An increased herd size is good for businesses in the area, hunters, viewing and even the few people that support the wolves. Also as hunters on this forum I recommend that we don't cherry pick different management techniques but do focus on the overall game management strategies that can really make a difference for all. Just some food for thought for Aaron and Steve and other stakeholders to consider....... from an old geezer that is really passionate about unit #27.

Really enjoyed the video. Nice job on shooting an excellent bull. Looks like you had too much fun!

I have a next door neighbor that had 18 points last year and did not draw a September gun bull hunt in units#27 or 1

Do you suppose there is any chance that Obama was in the area????

After I am finished glassing for WT and before I leave the basin I usually will call on my Scercy call to see if I can get a deers attention. About 20% of the time a curious WT that I have not yet seen will stand up to investigate

Awesome bull. Seems like this was a record year for big bulls. Some of the reason was obviously the aerial seeding for the Wallow Fire. Another reason for the great horn growth might have been a mild winter with strategic rains in the spring that resulting in the greenest April I can remember when horns were shed. Any other root causes for the record horn growth that anyone is aware of ?

The family deal is what it is all about. All the other trophy talk is just that ........cream on the pie!

Still quaacking in both units #1 and #27. They normally do up until almost November but things are different since the fire. We'll see how long it lasts this year as the rut was earliest in history.

If you have a horse KP Creek has as big a population as anywhere else in unit #27. And you shouldn't have much competition from too many other hunters either since it can be as remote as you want to go.

You did much better than our family when we visited Yellowstone 4 years ago. We saw 2 moose and no elk! The only elk we viewed were bedded in the town park of Mamouth.....kinda like we used to see in Alpine before the Wallow Fire. Guess the forest was too scary for the Yellowstone elk to be in the park with all those wolves running around! Isn't that an interesting message the elk are sending us......that they feel safer around humans than out in the scary woods with the wolves!

Glad to hear Bill got to share in some of your family excitement. He has lots of medical challenges now we all hope he will overcome soon.

Great job Dallon and team. That is a beautiful bull to be proud of for the rest of your life. The bull sure looks awfully familiar. Think I saw him the first day of the archery hunt managing a large sized herd. Was Bill W. with you folks when you got him?

Great job and story. What do you estimate your bull will score?

I have mixed feelings and experiences on the hunting next to roads and also the Forest Services recent "Travel Management Rules". #1 I have been on both sides of the hunting a tank adjacent to a road (some closed and some open). One year I took my family on an ATV ride and went by a hunter in a tree stand sitting a tank on an open road. The hunter came unglued with me. My thought was that if he was that lazy to hunt adjacent to a well traveled and approved road he should expect to have unwelcome visitors like us! #2 I have personally made the effort to get away from people and walked into a tank on a USFS "closed road". Admittedly it did disturb me to have people drive by illegally on their ATV's and disturb my activities. Having said and experienced all the above (both sides of the concern) I believe one of the root causes for these interpersonal conflicts is our USFS handling of the Travel Management Rules. I have viewed all the proposed maps by the USFS for what they propose to close in units #1 & #27. Rough estimate is they propose to close about 80% of the roads that many of us have utilized for almost 40 years!! Bottom line if they are successful in closing this much forest access to all outdoors enthusiasts then their Travel Management changes will be terribly discriminatory to the aged, women, children and handicapped that have enjoyed this privilege the last 40 years. I hate to use the word discriminatory but it definitely applies to what the USFS desires and even some of the posters on this board. Just remember....some day you will be aged but hopefully not handicapped. When changing rules we need to consider what is best for everybody....not just our own self centered desires.

I have personally harvested 19 bulls and helped many others on both rifle and archery hunts. With archery particularly you can count on very little blood trail. Usually they bleed internally more than externally. Most of our archery kills we have had 300' or less of blood trail to work with. We have recovered many bulls that went over 1/2 mile and quite a few that traveled over 1/4 mile. Sometimes if you do not have the sound of the bull going down to get you in the vicinity you have to invision what is the path of least resistance you would take if you were wounded. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't unfortunately. A bull elk can go a lot farther after injured than you ever can imagine.