Alpinebullwinkle

I am really surprised to see how many good green trees we have lost this year due to significant wind storms (while the ground was wet). Some trees are pulled out roots and all and some green trees are being broken off and twisted. All I can guess is now with 50% less forest and resistance the wind velocities have picked up. It's really sad to see the continual deterioration of our valued forests.......possibly another negative consequence of the Wallow Fire that no one seems to have documented for future learnings about forest management. We seem to be losing green trees faster than the burned dead ones we know will ultimately fall over as a wasted resource. Another major fire is emminent........just a matter of how soon it will happen!

Azbackwoods- If you ever get up to Burk's Point (named after your great uncle) take a look at the memorial I established up there for Jim Grammer. It is a stainless steel plaque with him on his horse surrounded by a large rock pile. Let me know how it looks. I likely won't make it back up there.

Cool. I've known Jim and Betty for 40 years and Jim was one of my father-in-laws two best friends. Jim helped me a lot on my hunting adventures and shared many great stories which I will never forget. I consider it a great privilege to have known Jim so well.

"and good luck on the $30 a pound" It's called the law of supply and demand. Wolf advocates have called for an additional +1200 Mexican Grey Wolves to be reintroduced. Do the math. I don't have to tell you what even half of those additional wolves will do to our elk population.

"At these prices". With all the additional wolves planned for reintroduction in the next few years elk horns are going to become more and more rarer. I'm holding onto mine for the day we can get $30 per pound........unfortunately coming soon to your local theater!

Very impressive. I'm jealous that you have better wheels than this ole geezer!

Azbackwoods are you by chance any relation to my former good buddy Jim Grammer (now deceased) who owned Beaverhead and his wife still does own a remaining acreage? Or the homesteader Norman Josh?

Allen I hate to admit this, but I seriously think the response you stated that is currently under consideration will not provide much help. The plan relies on too much common sense that we all know is not part of the equation by the wolf advocates. The only possibility I see of anything positive happening to counteract all this nonsense by the 10% radicals is with a class action suit by outdoor clubs, accompanied by the support of AGFD. Perhaps other states could be pursuaded to participate in our interest as well. Class action suits are the only things that the radicals seem to understand. Rational converstations using common sense have never been part of the equation with wolf advocates or any of the so called environmental organizations for that matter. Us conservationists only stand a chance if we talk the same language, and use the same tactics as the so called "environmentalists".

As a resident of Alpine, unfortunately I have had a very close opportunity to monitor and experience the consequences of this ill-advised wolf reintroduction program. Our elk herd has continued to decline steadily since the inception of the program. Even though unit #27 elk tags have been increased in some areas the last few years (very questionable justification IMHO) the overall tag numbers for the unit are down significantly when compared to the early 1990's, prior to the addition of these so called wolves. Unit #27 cannot support any additional wolves without further reductions of elk hunting priviledges. Obviously this is one of the hidden agendas for wolf advocates, with the ultimate goal eliminating hunting all together, and keeping more people out of our national forests. This is why when I heard of the obsurd proposal to add more wolves than the initial goal of 100, I mentioned somewhat "tongue in cheek" that since unit #27 cannot support any additional wolves, we should therefore target Tucson and Phoenix for additional government dog reintroductions. After all, wolf advocates are quick to state that wolves were here long before humans, which ultimately caused their demise. Well I'm sure wolves inhabited Tucson and Phoenix well before the population explosion! Introducing wolves to urban areas, rather than forcing our beautiful rural areas to suffer all the negative consequences of reintroduction, would at least help educate the uninformed 50% of the population about this ruthless killer. When urban folks start losing some of their valued pets like we have, perhaps they might become more educated and objective on this issue. It concerns me greatly that one of the strategies currently being discussed by our side is a plan that would "attempt to agree on a wolf number that is much lower and biologically sound than the Fed numbers". There are many truthful testimonals highlighting the decemation of the elk herd in Yellowstone National Park, and I might add that was in the absence of hunting. No more wolves should be tolerated in unit #27. That is the only responsible and acceptable plan that should be considered IMHO!!!! The only additional wolves that should be allowed is where their original and primary habitat existed, Mexico. Of course there is always Tucson and Phoenix for educational purposes! By the time our side figures out that only a highly justified class action lawsuit can possibly save our elk herds and hunting priviledges, it will be too late for our generation .......and possibly our grandkids generation!

Congratulations on drawing your first tag Coati! It sounds like you have the right thought process to fully optimize the experience and privilege of bull elk hunting. I have been privileged to harvest 24 bulls in my lifetime and probably guided friends and clients to equally as many kills. To me it has never been about the "kill", even though we have always focused on the biggest bulls available. The scouting in the summers leading up to the hunts and camaraderie during the hunt have always been the ultimate prize.....whether we were able to harvest one of the bulls we had targeted, or not. Enjoy your summer and upcoming hunt. And good luck!

Thanks for sharing your wonderful story and pictures. Yours is a great achievement to be very proud of. Your share adds great value to this forum. Congratulations on a job well done!!

I fully understand what Flatlander has stated and fully agree that the AGFD needs to have a seat at the table for the wolf management program. By having a voice and sharing rational input, hopefully AGFD can somewhat minimize negative consequences we are already experiencing and those future consequences which we expect will only worsen due to this ill-advised program. This program, initiated by the radical 10% that seems to be running our country in more ways than just environmental, has gained support from another 50% or so of urban folks that are naïve on the subject and fed untruthful information that goes unchallenged by AGFD, and too often by our local conservation clubs. That is the travesty I see here. Wolf reintroduction sounds right and feels good to most people that are uninformed of the consequences of reintroduction. Most people do not understand why the wolves were eliminated by man in the first place, as the Arizona population growth increased exponentially. This growth continues and only worsens the root cause of the wolf's demise. I understand that due to the heavy hands of the feds wolves may be here to stay, but if common sense is not incorporated into the equation we soon will have no hunting and the next efforts required in a decade or so will be reintroduction of elk and then deer. I surely will involve the curtailment of hunting as we currently know it. This is where we need more open and honest communications from our AGFD and also more open communications and support from state wildlife groups. The wolf reintroduction program went forward with the expressed goal of only 100 wolves for the ultimate goal. Now that we are nearing that goal wolf advocates with no regard for their public credibility are now calling for an increase possibly up to 1,000 wolves. This goal is unsupportable without wiping out our wildlife resources in Arizona and eliminating hunting all together. AGFD with their voice at the table need to have a backbone, educate wolf advocates and the general public of the consequences of such an increase. We need to assist AGFD with our wildlife organizations or join one if you are not already a member. Another sad story with a strong parallel to the wolf issue is what AGFD allowed to happen to most of our valuable streams in unit #27. A native fish reintroduction program was initiated in the 1980's with the goal of only poisoning 3 of our streams and reintroducing only native trout in those 3 selected streams. Naturally they selected some of our best watersheds of Bear Wallow, Fish Creek, and KP Creek that held great populations of rainbow, brook and brown trout that I might add reproduced on their own very nicely and created tremendous fishing opportunity for the public. Somehow this limited program secretly expanded from 3 to 15 (or more) of our creeks in unit #27. Thanks to this failed effort we have been deprived fishing privileges in these affected streams for most of the last 30 years. AGFD also now only stocks non-native trout species that cannot reproduce in lakes and maybe a few selected streams. When I challenged the AGFD on how the native reintroduction program was expanded from 3 to 15 without public knowledge they answered to me that they did so to achieve a federal funding quota!!! I wish that more outdoor enthusiasts understood what has transpired here because the wolf reintroduction program sounds like it is going down the same path with unintended future consequences that the public just does not understand. AGFD needs to be held accountable for this fishing blunder and hopefully we do not see a re-run of this movie with the wolf program. Your voices need to be heard!!!!

We got some rain/snow precipitation one day early last week that greened up the grass immediately. Hopefully it was enough and timely to have a positive effect on horn growth and provide good nutrients in the future for calving. Need one more good snow in April, which we normally get each year to set these things up

I agree with your comment Titanium that each individual is different. My main point is these youngsters are just figuring out what their interests are and there is a short window of opportunity to add hunting to other alternatives such as sports and/or technical interests as they try to find themselves and what they will focus more on as their lives progress. If a youngster strikes out in his earliest opportunities, does not experience success, or even has a disappointing experience with his first tag it is more likely he/she will pursue other interests as they mature in life. So the challenge is for families and AGFD to set the table of success early on in our children's lives.

The scary thing to me Snapshot is this negative trend of declining elk herd has been happening before our eyes for about 15 straight years now. It takes many years to turn a trend like this around. Maybe worse AGFD has admitted their desire to lower the elk herd size ......I presume responding to pressures mostly voiced from the ranching community. Add to this issue an expanding wolf population and within a few years the elk decline will with parallel the mule deer decline we experienced in #27 from about 1985. Once again that mule deer decline resulted from increased predation and hunting pressure IMHO. Sound familiar??

Interesting comments above. My sad testimonial is my son put my oldest grandson in a few years ago for his first big game hunting opportunity, a junior cow elk hunt. He was 12 at the time and unfortunately did not draw. As you can guess he lost interest and it is now debatable whether we will ever gain another family hunter ...... since he and his younger brother are now very focused on football and basketball.

As a year round resident of Alpine (over many decades) I can share that the elk herd peaked in unit #27 about 1999. My guess is the current elk population of #27 is about half of what it was at it's peak. IMHO the root cause of this 50% reduction in elk herd size is due to two key factors: reintroduction of the wolves, and also excessive cow hunting permits. Some AGF officials will also say a key root cause is drought, but if you are familiar with unit #27 you are aware there is no shortage of available water for these animals. It is amazing how many cow hunters the last few years have struck out and vented on seeing very few cows to hunt. Never heard those complaints 10 or so years ago out of unit #27. And yes we are experiencing a greater amount of larger bulls being harvested the last two years since the fire and its consequences. Not sure how much longer that trend will prevail due to the above. JMHO but since I am out in the woods more frequently than most, it should be considered more factual than speculation. Also one would expect the elk reduction trend might reverse due to the devastating Wallow Fire and increased nutrients as a positive consequence of the fire. Unfortunately we have not viewed an increase in calf crop post-fire when compared to what we viewed in the summers of the 1990's and early 2000. I wonder if the fertility rate is up post-fire but predators might be impacting the survival rate with significantly less cows now to reproduce? It is sometimes difficult to quantify what offspring numbers we start with and calf survival rates, probably even more so difficult to quantify now with 50% of the forest being burned in #27. I have a very good friend that owns 50 acres with a large pond and a nice home at Beaverhead. About 6-7 years ago he shared a story with me that every nite that early June a large herd of cows and calves would enjoy his pond. He initially counted 46 calves in the herd. Every day he noticed a decline in the herd until his last count in August was 6 remaining calves. Yes he said a pack of at least 4 wolves escorted the herd almost daily and he would often view the herd take refuge out into the center of his pond for safety. It seemed to him almost daily the herd size was reduced. These testimonials from credible residents like my friend (who incidentally passed away 3 years ago) do not get enough media attention that they deserve when considering some of the questionable literature that is shared with the public from our daily news media considering wolves. Enough of my frustrating rant for today. Congratulations to all that were lucky enough to draw an elk tag this year! Enjoy every bit of this special privilege.......... while it lasts.

I just got hit also.......by my wifes flying elbow........when U of A just won their basketball game at the dance!!

How did the meat taste?

IMHO so far I do not believe this year's extremely mild winter has negatively affected horn growth. I saw plenty of new green grass coming up last week which the elk were enjoying. The key will be the next 8 weeks. Hopefully we get one more big snow storm in March which would be normal, and then a couple of good rain/snow storms in April. Precipitation in May is always a bonus. Stay tuned!

I found my best shed, a 7-pointer from a 400 class bull over six foot off the ground in a juniper tree. Went back 24 times to find the match but was unlucky and never found it. Years ago when taking long hikes into remote shedding areas I used to hang my sheds up in a tree for later when I had too many to carry out. Have actually gone back 5 or so years later to pick some up. Had one tree with 5 tremendous sized sheds I hung that someone found and took the best 3 horns out. I was surprised to discover there are actually other people as crazy as I am getting off the beaten path!

Becker my information comes from living in the area since 1986 (camping on weekends since 1971) hunting every September and November for elk and also most of the deer hunts. Spending about 200 days a year in the forest probably is more accurate than any surveys that are taken randomly. Just guessing I have spent more time in the forest than most or all of the wildlife biologists. Sorry I don't have a link to refer you to but you do have your personal choice where to get your information and who you chose to believe.

I have to say I have witnessed the same and share the same opinion with Nextolast. This change also results in a concentration of the hunters in the same areas = many more conflicts and frustration!!!

All great and accurate comments from those that posted above. The most frustrating to me is the most hunting pressure I have experienced in 40 years last year. Most of the elk are now concentrated in 50% or less of the real estate verses the pre-Wallow Fire era. Horn quality peaked in 2012 and will continue to decline due to the barley dying out (by design) and the increased hunter success due to visibility changes from the fire. Elk populations are now 50% of what they were in 1999 due mostly to the Wallow Fire consequences, and reintroduction of the Mexican Grey Wolf. AGFD admits that this trend is aligned with their intentions for the unit.

Did not hear or see this bull taken this year..........so far. He needs two more weeks to enjoy 2014 !