Alpinebullwinkle

Another way of saying mature to me would be bulls that are 4-1/2 years old or older. Tougher for me to find the smaller horns when the grasses grow and I don't see as well as in my younger days! Sometimes a geezer like me has to just trip over them...... but I have numerous places I've been the last 45 years that remain quality locations to find horns. Having said that, the fires the last 10 years have affected where the best spots are on an annual basis. Just wish I had more time to get out (in early spring) before the taller grasses make it more difficult to spot the horns.

Rombo were you able to cut the gravel with a knife on this bull at the dinner table?

Most of the "mature" 6-point horns I pick up are in the range of 12-17 pounds per horn

Yes it is understandable with everyone including me getting impatient when AGFD does not meet or exceed the previous years milestones on the draft results. Having said that....... I still appreciate their efforts because I remember very well in the 1970's when these results were not available until late July. Based on those old deadlines....... AGFD is still at least 4 months early!!

I am so jealous of you young bucks that still have good wheels. Unfortunately I am history but still get into some spots that no one recognizes have horns

That's a big bull. Find his horns immediately if not sooner!

Be thankful for the current system. Back in the 1970's they used to make us wait until almost August to find out. Sure was difficult planning vacations on that old system!!

Maybe the Merriam's elk that have been reported were more like that jaguar in southern Arizona.......occasionally found tromping around "out of bounds".

Great find!

While spending some time in my “oval office” the other day I happened to pick up an old edition of the Arizona Elk Society Tracker publication, Spring 2007. Ironically on page 5 I found the following comments by John Koleszar from his In the Crosshairs:Politics ’07 article. “The Arizona Game & Fish Department has reduced the elk herd by almost 50% over the past 10 years. The reason for some of that reduction can be traced to the drought of course, but also to what Commissioner Hernbrode calls the “political carrying capacity” of elk. Ranchers have their grazing problems, small rural towns see crop damage and the cry throughout those areas was “too many dang elk”. The resulting decline in the overall population of elk can be traced to pressure that is exerted by many folks whose interests are not in line with ours. Thank goodness that Ron Eichelberger and Steve Clark started confronting the Commission and the Department on those numbers”. The above is exactly what I have been expressing in numerous posts which Becker, a personally admitted 9-year hunter of Unit #27, likes to challenge. I don’t have a problem with challenges if they come from credible sources and do not become personal. Unfortunately, Becker seems to enjoy making (Obama like) divisive challenges that are counter productive to those wishing to make constructive posts. I share this at this time since the 2016 application window for elk hunters has passed, and I shouldn’t be criticized by Becker again (hopefully) for trying to dissuade hunters from Unit #27 opportunities. You’ll notice I did not initiate this thread, and with the timing of this response (post application period) hopefully some viewers will recognize my previous posts have been meant to be constructive, rather than an attempt to sway applicants a different direction. Becker’s critical misquotes coming from his admitted 9 years of experience in Unit #27 (challenging +45 years of numerous key performance indicators/experience) are laughable, even though he will occasionally post something of substance that I agree with. Bottom line, his exaggerated (Obama like) and divisive misquotes are not appreciated! I still stand by previously expressed opinion that the Unit #27 elk herd is down approximately 50% from its peak herd size about 1999. September elk hunting experiences have been affected proportionately. However, this does not mean that I think “elk herds are dismal” or “on the verge of disappearing”, or “I don’t have the facts”, as Becker likes to misquote me in his personal attacks. Apparently from this thread, and the John Koleszar article referenced above, many others share my sentiment.

Seemed like a tall rack so I'm guessing 350+ without a better look

I have never stated the elk herds in 27 are "bad". That is part of the misquotes that I have pointed out that are so frustrating to me. What I have stated, and stand by, is the elk herds are significantly reduced from the peak population about 15 years ago, hence that affects the hunting experiences. For those elk hunters that were lucky enough to draw tags in the 1990's I'm sure they will acknowledge a significant difference in herd size to the current situation. On the contrary..... due to the fire....... improved visibility, and better habitat/feed, the bulls harvested in the late gun hunt are generally larger than the early years (even with less bulls to hunt). It is misquotes and dialogs such as this that make a helpful poster on CWT want to just quit posting. I have a few friends that have given up posting just for that reason. Much less controversy to just be a reader....... or maybe neither! Faulker over and out!!

I can't speak for the other state units and can only compare the two units I hunt.....27 and 1. Most of my comments though are comparing unit 27 guiding, hunting and wildlife viewing experiences as they have changed (for both good and bad) over the last +45 years of my personal experiences. I can also add some credible comments shared to me from the older generation that hunted and guided in 27 before me from the 1950's to 1960's as well. Becker seems to like to misquote me or maybe I just haven't explained my comments clear enough for his comprehension. Let me be clear as possible. Unit 27 is still a very fun unit to hunt bulls in. Cow hunters have really complained in recent years ironically. But my honest opinion is the quality of the September bull hunts are 50% of the experiences we used to have about 15 years ago. Cow hunting is even tougher. Unit 27 still offers lots of fun elk hunting but not what it used to be in the late 1990's because the herd size is significantly lower. Part of that has been on purpose by AGFD responding to rancher complaints about elk impacts on their cattle grazing. Another reason is due to the wolf reintroduction program. I believe a 3rd reason is due to higher hunter harvest rates due to better sight and sound post Wallow Fire. It sickens me to see how many elk carcasses I trip over on my hikes due to predation and possibly unclaimed hunter kills! Your choice whether you wish to put more value into posters that admit less than 10 years in the unit verses +45 years. Makes no matter to me but I don't appreciate being discredited by youngsters that think they know everything about a unit's history in only a decade or so of hunting experience!

Correctly stated that a good % of the biggest bulls in Unit #27 have been harvested since the 2011 Wallow Fire which changed many dynamics. Additionally, the herd size is about 50% of what it was at the peak about 15 years ago. Saw lots of cow tracks in the snow last weekend though. If you put in and draw a 27 tag, and the snow all melts by next September.........my recommendation is to contact Becker...... as he seems to be the only one that knows anything about the unit

In the last century when we still had the barrel/paper system using centrifugal force and putting in the last day seemed to be an advantage. Also sending in application sometimes from out of state seemed to help. Got drawn for a bull tag in 11 of 13 years using those principals when I was young. Since 1990, when I gave up gun hunting for better odds and trophy archery hunting, only drawn 3 tags in last 25 years! Dang computers!!!!!

Let's go look for the 2012 horns!

Wow thinking about the thousands of miles I have walked in the woods the last +45 years and I have never found anything like that. Awesome find!

What were the hunters opinions on the affect of last year's trial hunt changes in Unit #9 with the September gun hunt preceding the September archery hunt for the first time? Positive/negative or neutral???

Good suggestion. I was trying to remember what unit (9) the trial began in last year. Will have to find the topic with the follow up discussions. Thanks.

Well looks like they decided to go ahead with the trial this year in Unit #27. Will be interesting to see what impact the change will have on both archery and early rifle opportunities

Great job Scott and son. What a fantastic memory for you and the family. Darn good job on the video also Greg! Really enjoyed it.

OK sports fans now that the archery and muzzleloader hunts are over what are your comments on the overall quantity of elk you saw in unit #27 and also the quality of the hunts? From my perspective the elk herd quantity continued to decline from its peak about 1999 and for the second straight year the quantity and quality of the bulls taken was down. Additionally, it was the least bugling I had ever heard in 27, and seemed like most of the rut was over by late September....when normally it continues very vocally at least, until October 5. Things really have changed in 27 and not for the better unfortunately....IMHO! What do you hunters think? And maybe you can add unit 1 comments as well?

rph the reason the antlers are not as dark as normal 27 bulls is because it most likely rubbed its horns in the junipers and was lower than the more severe pine burned areas in the higher elevations.

Everything in Unit #27 this year remains "normal"........at least as normal as it has been since the Wallow Fire. Every year the elk are fairly vocal for maybe a week prior to the archery hunt. Usually you can get a real vocal first day of the archery hunt if you are in the right place. Then the elk get the memo that the hunt is on and go "silent" for 5 to 7 days, except for the nocturnal times. Usually the action picks up about the 21st and the "rut" is on big time every year by the 23rd, and lasts until about October 5 (except the 2nd heat) that is less intense up to November 1. Since the Wallow Fire........ 70% of the hunters are chasing where the largest herds are located which is different from the pre-fire days. That is the frustrating part for all hunters that fall into that category. Additionally the herd size is now only about 50% of what it was in the peak year of 1999 IMHO. As a trophy hunter I used to pass up about +15 bulls which were pretty sure kills archery season before I harvested. Now I only end up passing half that amount of sure things which is one of my KPI's suggesting our herd size is only 50% of the former peak size. Wolves and higher hunter harvest % in the late gun/cow hunts (due to improved visibility) is the cause of the decline IMO. Also the September gun hunts in 27 have been extremely disappointing the last two years due to the above. It is what it is....... unfortunately for us geezers that have experienced much better days in Unit #27.

Actually Bill the Chileno killed the bull down on the Blue in the late hunt. He was so excited he jumped up into my arms and we both almost rolled off a cliff. But it gave me the idea to cut the bulls legs off and he rolled +900 feet in elevation to the bottom of the canyon. Tenderized the meat immediately......... and saved us a tough packing job in severe slope!