Alpinebullwinkle

Unfortunately I can relate to you. At least you are not a "dead ringer" !!!

Just for the record I am aware of at least two people that have drawn September bull gun hunts with only 1 bonus point.The element of "luck in the draw" still outweighs the impact of bonus points IMHO! I have many times demonstrated to AGFD how squaring the bonus points would make the system fairer to all........ less luck.... and more impact from bonus points. Feedback from hunters though has suggested that the majority still prefer the current system..... where luck outweighs unsuccessful applications (bonus points).

Interesting responses gang. Thank you. The only reason I would apply per my question is if I thought it offered upside potential for getting drawn for my one desired hunt....... with no downside risk of disqualification. I "think" I understand how the draw works...... but I do not want to do anything "stupid" to disqualify myself obviously. After 45 years of applying for elk tags (pretty successfully I might add) I realize mistakes are made within the system even though it is computerized. Where I'm coming from is one year I was forwarded two elk tags for the same hunt! So you're saying I have a chance eh????????

I am interested in applying for only one hunt number. Can I apply with that one number choice for all 3-4 choices without my application being disallowed?

From my experiences in units # 1 and 27 the elk annually warm up their vocal cords for the upcoming rut about August 16-17 and then go pretty silent until about Labor Day. I call the August 16 quack the pre-function function. They get pretty vocal in early September until the first elk hunt starts and then a 5-7 day "less silent period" occurs. The "rut" kicks in another notch about September 21-23 and hits the peak about October 1. The audible fall off significantly by October 5 which seems to signify the end of the normal rut. A second rut of lessor intensity occurs in mid-October for the cows that were not breeded in September. Most of the audible is silenced by the first week in November. Cows particularly, and a few bulls, will quack off and on from November until August, when the process seems to repeat itself.

Why do you guys do it? Because the spirits have sent me a message that is why I was put on earth for a short stay!

Judging by the horns, skin color, and limited view of the tail it sure looks like a mule deer to me. Having said that, about 1980 my brother and I walked up on a buck that looked exactly like the one in the picture, and watched him stand still for over two minutes in the open. We commented "nice muley", and when he finally bolted the white flag came up. We were shocked to think it was a coues because he stood still like a mule deer statue for so long in the open country. That "hybid" would have exceeded 140" for sure. That's the only one I have seen in +45 years of deer or elk hunting, but admittedly was a memorable shock!

Compliments to the AGFD for this excellent communication on the wolf program that affects most all of us elk hunters and to a lesser extent deer hunters. GAME AND FISH NEWS Nov. 22, 2016 Arizona Game and Fish Department Mexico wolf pair welcomes third litter of wild-born pups Mexicos recovery success complements efforts in Arizona New Mexico PHOENIX The nation of Mexico continues to play a key role in the recovery of the Mexican wolf. Mexicos National Commission of Natural Protected Areas (CONANP) recently reported the sighting of four wild-born Mexican wolf pups in the state of Chihuahua. The pups represent the third consecutive year that the mated pair M1215 and F1033 has produced offspring. With the birth of this litter, Mexican authorities now report 21 Mexican wolves in the wild. Arizona wishes to congratulate Mexico on their recent successes toward the recovery of Mexican wolves in their historical habitat and offer our continued support of their efforts, said Francisco Abarca, the Arizona Game and Fish Departments international and borderlands program manager. The vast majority of historical habitat for the Mexican wolf is in Mexico, so their efforts and successes provide a significant contribution to the recovery of the subspecies. The Arizona Game and Fish Department is assisting Mexico with their wolf recovery efforts by supporting international collaboration, evaluating habitat suitability in their historical range, and providing materials and technical support. Arizona Game and Fish has been actively involved in a multi-agency effort to reintroduce Mexican wolves to portions of the Southwest and Mexico since the 1980s.

........or how about transferring the wolves to Tucson and Phoenix so the population that naively supports this ridiculous program can learn more first hand about the wonderful attributes of the wolves...... when their personal pets are consumed by the wolves!!!

Again, excellent comments by all. Thank you for your input. I finally located my data spreadsheet focused on cow and bull tags issued between 1987 to 2016. Unfortunately I did not save the hunting guidelines for the years 1973 to 1986 which I participated on for most of the bull hunts also. I was surprised to see what the Hunt Guideline data revealed for all these years. In summary...... unit #27 had only 700 bull tags each year from 1987 to 1990. From 1991 to 2003 unit 27 averaged 1,271 cow and bull tags total, with the exception of the anomaly year in 2001 when AGFD granted 2,350 total cow and bull tags for the unit. From 2004-2010 unit 27 averaged 881 cow and bull tags. Since the fire in 2011 the unit has been allotted an average of 1,237 cow and bull tags each year (a 40% increase). As I recall from memory, the AGFD openly communicated the desire to reduce the Arizona elk herd from an overall herd estimate of about 30,000 for the state to a desired level in the 20,000 to 22,000 level. This likely was about year 2000 when the Elk Management Plan was renewed and AGFD expressed their desired action to respond to complaints from ranchers, rural residents and other business owners to act upon the negative elk impacts on their personal lives. Perhaps someone from AGFD can add some more details to the data I documented from their annual Hunting Guidelines. After what most of us has observed post Wallow Fire it will be interesting to see if AGFD is making any changes for next years hunting seasons in units 27 and 1.

Now that both the September hunts are completed in Unit #27 I'm curious what the feedback is per the trial schedule change of putting the "trophy" gun hunt in advance of the archery hunters this year? Would be great to also hear from AGFD what their feedback has been to the trial schedule change? My feedback from local hunters and the Alpine gas station is that there were slightly less elk killed in both hunts, and the size of the bulls were disappointingly smaller. This is in spite of two beautiful bulls being harvested during the gun hunt. What do others think?

Interesting thought process. I maintain trail cameras but tend to disagree with your philosophy, at least considering the September hunts. I usually have trouble locating the monster bulls in September that I have filmed during the summer. Additionally I am aware of some monster bulls being harvested the last two Septembers that were filmed at least 2 miles away from their kill location earlier prior to the hunts. Perhaps you could be on to something though for the late hunts now that the elk habits have been modified by the 2011 fire, and a greater portion of the herd remains above the ridge now during the winters due to the fire nutrients. I'll take exception to my own comments if the topic is coues deer instead of bull elk that move to the dance floors more so during their rutting activities. I shot my 124+ coues buck with only a 1/2 day of archery hunting (after filming him a few times prior to the hunt) while I am still trying to achieve my goal of a 400 bull still, even though I usually have 1-5 of them located pre-hunt annually. In other words...... trophy coues deer bucks have a much tighter range than trophy bull elk. At least that is what I have been taught and experienced as well. For that reason I believe trail cameras are more effective as a hunting tool for coues deer than they are for bull elk.

Interesting thought process. I maintain trail cameras but tend to disagree with your philosophy, at least considering the September hunts. I usually have trouble locating the monster bulls in September that I have filmed during the summer. Additionally I am aware of some monster bulls being harvested the last two Septembers that were filmed at least 2 miles away from their kill location earlier prior to the hunts. Perhaps you could be on to something though for the late hunts now that the elk habits have been modified by the 2011 fire, and a greater portion of the herd remains above the ridge now during the winters due to the fire nutrients.

Trophyhunter- the AZGFD used to take their surveys in February (pre-fire years) which I suspect was just as accurate as now with the improved sight clearance and elk remaining on top of the rim uncharacteristically post-fire years. Prior to the fire the natural habits for the elk was to migrate off the top of the rim to the snow line or lower. That changed due to the fire and the new growth that has sustained the elk uncharacteristically above the rim post-fire.

Great job. We are doing the two minute drill and holding out for a good one the last day. Only seen a few little bucks to pass on but loads of does.

I've also hit the target every time.........15 yards out with my favorite hand grenades!

Thank you for sharing that data KWP. Seems to support exactly what many of us are experiencing and quacking about. Post Wallow Fire that late gun hunt in each unit has turned into a slaughter with the improved sight distance and changed elk behaviors from fire nutrients and aerial seeding. Admittedly I was a supporter of more late gun season tags prior to the fire. No longer prudent though, looking at the data and what we are seeing currently. Appears the down cycle has started and will take a few years and perhaps management strategy changes to turn things around.

100+

113???

Totally agree Wish. I've seen some ferocious fights and almost been trampled a few times in the process of enjoying the movie!

Sorry for being off topic here but I find a dead bull almost every year on my hikes and most of the time cannot find any evidence the bull died at the hands of a hunter. Makes me wonder how many bulls we lose each year to bull fights with a superior warrior??

Great story and nothing like success with relatives and close friends. What's with people poisoning tanks? Haven't heard that one before?

The only thing I will add to GG85's comments is both 27 and 1 cannot handle the double whammy of the late season gun hunt highly elevated harvest rates, and the addition of more wolves.....which is the desire of USFW, and seemingly not getting enough resistance from AGFD. That will ultimately reduce their annual revenues, and also our elk hunting opportunities.

Well done!!

Thank you to all for your excellent comments. This includes posters responding, and also the excellent PM's I received. Grey Ghost has summed it up pretty well in most people's opinions. Both the hunters in the early gun hunt and later archery hunt seem to have been disappointed this year. Smaller sized bulls taken in both hunts compared to earlier years, and the harvest rate down for the archery hunters in both Units 1&27. We viewed many small herds of cows managed by rag horned bulls. And most bulls viewed had broken horns indicating lots of competition for the limited cows available. Some hunters have commented (and I agree) it seems we are missing a bull age group in the 6-10 year age class. The post-Wallow Fire years of 2012-2014 produced some beautiful bulls, but the last two years they have been difficult to find. I heard of only two impressive bulls taken this year between the two September hunts. My son had an archery 27 tag, but only 3 days available to hunt. We felt lucky, listening to other hunters, with him getting a 330-340 class bull the first day of his hunt. Seems like the root cause of the current elk situation in 27 and 1 is the 2011 Wallow Fire. A few good hunting years followed due to unusual nutrients from the fire, but then the visibility improvement allowed an unusual amount of older bulls being taken (and wounded) in the November/December gun hunts from long range shooting. Additionally we found wolf feeding locations in both units with 10 pound processed sausages, dead elk carcasses, and AGFD marked cameras to monitor the action! Without question, wolves are another source of negative impact on the elk herds. Seems to be a few issues that AGFD needs to address in their management strategies for both units 27&1 going forward.