Flatlander

You must not have talked to many hunters this year who drew a tag in 4B. Most of those big bulls came from 27 and unit 1. Definitely not 3C. 4B had the exception of 1 400 bull. Which hasn't happened in a long time. Our money from the tag increases goes straight to their pockets and they claim to be using it to manage wildlife. The most insane thing to me is what they are doing to unit 4B and 3C. 4B has about a total of about 200 elk in it. You could drive for years out there and not see a living thing. Yet somehow they raised tags by 25 this year to 175. That's just the archery tags. Game and fish only wants us to be successful in the draw so they can get their money. Other than that they don't care if we kill anything. We're kind of going in circles here in this post but I know of many more people in this state that are unhappy with AZGFD than those that are happy. We are fed up with these greedy money hungry people. Whether you're going to agree with me or not start asking around and see what they guys up here in the white mountains think about AZGFD. I promise you're not going to find many happy hunters. Yeah they are still going to hunt and put up with it because that's the only thing we can do if we still want to hunt. I'm not sure why they even have these public input meetings. They don't care what we say. They want the money and they are going to get it. It's been shown in the past when everyone at the meeting disagrees with tag numbers in a unit and then the regs come out with more tags than they recommended anyway. Alright all done. Hope it changes someday! But I fear we're screwed and it's only gonna get worse. BC - You have failed in your half dozen posts to use one single piece of empirical evidence. All I hear is a whole bunch of "Me and my friends", "I never see bulls", "All the elk are gone". I find it laughable that you mention 4B as only producing one 400" bull this year. First of all, how in the world did you find time to go personally score every bull killed in that unit? Second, 4B is not historically known as a trophy unit, hence the very favorable draw odds. AZGFD does not owe us some made up quota of 400" bulls every year. You point out that quality has dropped over the last 5 years, well 5 years ago there were MORE tags than they are recommending for 2013, and A LOT more than there were this year. Just because the people you hunt with can't find elk doesn't mean that every unit in the state is on the brink of losing its elk herd. I share your opinion that unit 3C has declined, but I feel that there are a lot of reasons for that, for instance the popularity the unit gained over the past decade and not necessarily that AZGFD is trying to hunt elk into extinction. Your statement that AZGFD takes our tag and license dollars and puts them in their pockets is a perfect illustration of just how shallow your understanding of the department is. Money from tags and licenses was directed to the state general fund by Janet Napolitano years ago. The department is incapable of putting the $ in their own pocket. So you go ahead and sit around Charlie Clarks moaning with all your buddies about how awful AZGFD is; the rest of us will do research, get the facts and form our own, informed, intelligent opinions. My recommendation for you is to just give up, we're screwed anyways and it's only gonna get worse. So you might as well quit now.

Typical Tempe huh? Guess you Nogales Tech folks must have forgotten about this thread. /http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/35274-wow/

Well guess what, it all came down to tonight and look who showed up to play? Where are all the UA fans now? In hiding, just like their head coach.

Classless Rich-Rod wouldn't even come out to shake hands. Typical Tucson.

BALL GAME!!! What now U of A!!! Love it!!!

Yeah It seems the mounts take on the personality of the taxidermist. In this instance, there is some anger and the inability to listen to instruction, but very good natural talent. Thats pretty funny right there.

Whats your digiscope setup? These pics turned out great.

BC this is the product of a department who is trying to limit the amount of funding they accept from the feds. Federal $ comes with a whole bunch of strings attached and I for one prefer not to answer to those bureaucrats if it can be helped. The simple truth is that it takes A LOT of $ to run the kind of department that AZGFD has. In order to achieve the same $ through a tag price increase the price of an elk tag would have to be raised roughly $20. Tag price increases are permanent and require a more difficult process to get approved, so therefore it is easier to simply increase the number of tags offered. My personal feeling is that hunting is already expensive, and I feel for guys who have 2 or 3 kids applying for 3-4 species every year, plus trying to outfit them with gear, fuel for trips, etc. so if a few more tags in units that are meeting objectives prevents raising tag prices, I think its the right move. If we look at tag numbers over the past several years the recommendations this year show a trend towards what the total tag #'s were at the end of the last decade. If these recommendations are accepted we would still be 1500 or so tags shy of the 2008 - 2010 totals, and there have been plenty of big bulls harvested since that time, so to say that AZGFD is a joke is a bit harsh. I grew up here in AZ but as an adult have lived in Utah and Idaho and hunted those states plus MT and WY, I will say this, AZGFD is one of the very best F&G agencies in the West. Look no further than ID, where public land is abundant, habitat is excellent and the state's population is a fraction of AZ's and you will see how bad things can be. There are more B&C bulls harvested in a single year in AZ than in a decade there, despite all the advantages listed above. AZ is a pretty unique place where we can hunt trophy coues units during the rut archery every single year, bear and lion tags are over the counter with liberal seasons, you can kill 2 javelina every year if you want, Spring turkey tags can be drawn every couple of years and archery is over the counter, and the elk hunting is without comparison, period. There are archery bull hunts that can be drawn every single year if that is what you want to do, or there are opportunities to wait it out and experience an elk hunter's paradise after years of applying, and every scenario in-between exists; hunts with tons of tags, hunts with very few tags, hunts in the rut, hunts late in the year, cow hunts, youth hunts, muzzleloader only units, archery only units, units that have tons of road access and wilderness only units. Late rifle bull tags can be drawn every 2-3 years if that's your thing, cow hunts very early in the year and close to the rut typically only take a couple of years to draw if you prefer that. I think the state has done a remarkable job of balancing quality and opportunity and I think we owe them a thanks. We in the state of Arizona have a truly unique opportunity and we are blessed. Am I disappointed about the tag increases? Yes. Do I think the AZGFD is a joke, nope, I find a lot more humor in the unrealistic expectations we as a hunting community continually expect them to meet. I know this opinion is likely to be unpopular, but dog gone-it I think its time someone spoke up and gave AZGFD some credit.

Tag numbers are way up period. The reasoning is always the same. Roughly 2,000 new tags means roughly $240,000 in the AZGFD budget. This is the reality of a department that is funded via tag sales. My feelings are less mixed and more displeased to see units 22 North, 22 South and 6A carry more and more of the burden. Our herds can't really handle the additional harvest which is why you see some big increases in hunts with low success rates like the 22 North November archery hunt, 375 tags is a ton on a hunt with very low success. They have to add tags somewhere cause they need the funds and they don't want to give up any more elk than they have to. Its just the reality of the way our dept is operated, not a knock on them, its just what has to be done.

Congrats on a terrific bull.

Man, this thread was a blast from the past. Glad someone resurrected it. Some great reading here.

Oh man, what a shame. Someone really needs to invent a taxidermy undo button. Not saying this is a bad rug, I have seen much, much worse, just saying its a huge disappointment when things don't turn out like you had hoped.

Oh man. That was pretty good.

What tag do you have? I started hunting by myself about ten years ago when my Dad decided he was done bailing off into the unknown depths of wilderness that coues call home, Have done it many many times in the years since. It can be a very rewarding experience, challenging but rewarding. Taking my first buck all by myself thousands of miles from home in an area I figured out on my own was as rewarding an experience as I have ever had. Good luck, be prepared.

Flatlander, what is the max pool for 2012 for archery 9? I haven't seen the data released from the 2012 draw yet so the most up to date info is from 2011. Everyone with 13 points or more got a tag that year. Everyone else had less than a 10% chance. You guys got me thinking and I went and downloaded the 2012 info reports. Looks like 16 was max last year and 13 points once again was good enough for a tag.

Flatlander, what is the max pool for 2012 for archery 9? I haven't seen the data released from the 2012 draw yet so the most up to date info is from 2011. Everyone with 13 points or more got a tag that year. Everyone else had less than a 10% chance.

I have had the desire to hunt as long as I can remember, even though my Dad never did much hunting before my brother and I got old enough to tag along. He was with me for every animal I took until I left for college and killed my first Idaho forky all by myself in 2007. He hasn't been with me for a single one since. Although early cow hunts with dad were the first hunts we ever went on, I would say that I really started to learn how to hunt when I drew my first whitetail tags as a senior in high school. My sisters husband at the time is a member on here and an excellent coues hunter. Spending those december days with him behind a tripod and pair of 15's was where i would say I really began my education in how to really hunt. After they seperated I sort of had to go back to self educating myself, luckily I had a great buddy to do it with and we had a solid foundation. I owe both my dad and former bro in law a big thanks for all they taught me, he was a lousy husband but a pretty good friend and a really good hunter.

Great story. I enjoyed every word. Its invaluable to have buddies who can stay calm in a heated moment and get the job done. Cool heads are hard to come by in those conditions.

Those late hunts are tricky. On warm dry years they can sometimes be patterned around water sources. On years with snow they are usually on the move to lower ground. On normal years they are in nasty steep canyons and thick cover. Lots of fun though. I have never been on one I havent enjoyed.

Holy crap your right firstcoueswas80, I hope you get there in time to prevent the murder! Wow, your law enforcement skills are unparalleled. Hahaha" +1, hahahhahahaa! Casey, I he never really said he was going to kill him, he simply stated a hole was dug and he owned a shovel. That could mean so many things, maybe they are going to pop a squat together, maybe they are going to build a swimming pool at the blind site, maybe he dug a hole as a new ground blind and he is daring someone to try and steal that, and maybe the hole is an underground layer where they can join forces and hide all of the things they are going to steal together. This is the problem with the internet today, everyone is always jumping to conclusions.

Early Rifle unit 1 is 18 points to get in the bonus pass, single digit odds until then, unit 10 was the same, unit 27 would be in the same ballpark. Early Muzzy in 3B (there are no rifle hunts in 3B anymore) took 15 points last year (2011) to get in the bonus pass and everyone with 16 points drew.

6B, 7E, 4B and maybe 5BN early archery should all be realistic possibilities as you will be close to the bonus pass in those units. Those can all be decent hunts if you do it right. Another option is 11M, not a premier unit, but is definitely within grasp at this point and plenty of good bulls are killed there. You can probably draw most of the late rifle tags, and there may be an option or two available in the limited opp. hunts if you are familiar with any of those units. They can be solid hunts, if you know the unit and where the elk go once they get pressured. You are at a crossroads where you have the option of drawing a few different tags or sticking it out for 2-3 more years and having a shot at some of the more popular tags (6A, 3B, 4A, 5A, 5BS, etc.). Does anyone know when the updated draw draw by pass info comes out?

Thanks Coach, great story!

Great buck. I wish I could get caught up in the moment and shoot a stud like that! Thanks for the story, I for one have looked forward to this since draw results came out.

Good luck. Go glass a canyon you should be able to find a bull.