dave

I think everyone?s participation in this thread is valuable and I thank you all for contributing to this discussion. I would like to make a few more observations and give an opinion. What I believe is happening is that we the people, the Department, and the Commission have not progressively taken steps to keep up with our vastly growing state. We all have been fighting law suits etc.. One Commissioner recognizes this and has begun to try to offer ideas that will improve some of the situations that exist now. In response to his ideas, the Department offers recommendations to try to accommodate those ideas. We have a situation where we are trying to correct problems we have by changing the hunt structure. I think we may need to change the hunt structure but we are getting the cart before the horse. What we really need to do is agree on a strategy in how we will count animals, browse, and many other things. I think the ADA needs to be commended for the effort and money they have spent trying to help the Department and the Commission see the feelings of the sportspeople. I view the survey as an effort the ADA has made to help our Department and Commission. The response I expect from our Department and the Commission is to recognize the passion these hunters have for our resource and join together with them in an effort to improve what we are doing. The 6500 that took the time to respond are the ones that care and are out there working to improve things. In my book, that is the overwhelming voice of the public. This survey deserves the same respect and consideration given to the elk survey. It also surpasses the Departments survey regarding opportunity for hunters. They only had 5000 respond to that. This is not a contest. This is people expressing there opinions. At this point in time, I think we should put the deer recommendations on hold. We need to get our stuff together about how we are going to measure our resource and allot tags. Hopefully this will be a joint effort between the hunters, Commission and Department. We do have to make improvements in what we are doing. Some of those improvements may not be what each and every person wants. We have to do what is right for the future, the future of our children and the future of the resource. Hope I see some of you at the Commission meeting and I hope our Commissioners do the right thing.

I am a bowhunter, so I have no dog in this fight. I also can stand back and listen to all of you without any agenda. I was born in Tucson 50 years ago and hunted coues since I got bored hunting muley's at age 13. I have never hunted coues north of unit 33 and never even knew that the central part of the state did not have stratified hunts for coues. I would like to express some ideas and see what you all think. When it is all over, I can change my handle to "deadman walking" It only takes a minute. This is what I hear you folks saying: 1. We like what we have and we want to keep it that way. 2. This has worked for many years, why change it. 3. We want our kids and grandkids to experience the same thing. Let me comment to each of your comments. coueskiller: Well it looks like drawing a Dec. coues tag in central AZ. is going to be very tough for us from here on out. Our wonderful Game & Fish Dept. is proposing the following.... 6A(50tags),6b/8(50tags),21(50tags),22(50tags) and 23(50tags) now thats what I would call VERY LITTLE hunter oppertunity, it will now take years to draw one of these tags!!!! Looks like hunting coues deer in the rut in central AZ is now going to be as hard as hunting carp north of the big ditch, it will be a sad day when the Dept. approves these recomendations!!! Oh well I guess we could all draw one of the Oct. tags in the units mentioned above because there will be a toatl of 1745 permits issued for the Oct. hunts in units 6a,6b,8,21,22 & 23....................... What the heck are they thinking $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you are wanting a coues tag, the recommendation increases the tag numbers in those units by around 750 tags. Does that make it harder to draw a coues tag? Does that diminish hunter opportunity? If you are a true blue coues hunter, what units do you put in for second and third choice? Would those include any of the units in southern Arizona that have been stratified since I can remember? Hey, I don't blame you for feeling that way. That is why I started bowhunting a long time ago. I actually put in for the wrong unit a couple years ago by accident and drew one of the 25 December tags for whitetail in unit 34a. I took my bow and saw a few bucks, none of which I wanted. Sorry about that, I didn't plan to take anyone's tag. bullwidgeon: They have a new way of thinking at the G&F, all these extra tags and jacked up extra hunts in units with noticiably smaller herds than down South on top of the dryest winter ever. The deer herd should be looking real good in '07..................NOT ! I agree. TAM: WOW!!! I just got done looking at the proposed regs on the AZ G&F website and I can't believe they're still pushing the issue! So far the vast majority of some 6,500 people that have taken the deer survey are overwhelmingly against the proposal and yet the G&F keeps moving it forward. Not only the deer but as Brett mentioned now they've screwed up the bear hunts too. What's the reasoning behind all these changes? It surely cant be science! They say they want to increase hunter opportunity but the hunters are saying they don't want more opportunity they want to stick with quality. I don't see how this could be anything but a money issue??? More hunter opportunity = more tags sold = more $$$. You'd think the results of the survey would be enough to get these changes voted down... what are these guys thinking? It is possible that the survey may show overwhelmingly that the vast majority of the hunters in this state are not happy with the recommendations. I agree that the Commission should listen to this and follow the majority of their constituent?s wishes. At this point in the game, I believe the Commission should just put these ideas on hold and keep things the way we had them for this year. I am saddened by the way everything has happened this year and hopefully it will be a good learning lesson for us all. With that said, there are some things all of us need to think about. We will have to progress to new things and strategies we have not had to do before. Our population is growing almost as fast as the opposition we are getting from animal defense people and eco nuts. TAM and friends, if any of you are able to attend the Commission meeting, please speak your minds about your concerns. Also recognize that maybe some of the ideas from the Commission that really light our rockets, may be ideas that will help in the future? Can we have 2250 December whitetail tags in the central units in December forever? Rembrandt: Your not too popular here. You make some good points that I agree with. As I stated before, I have only hunted coues in southern Arizona so I am a virgin to some of this thinking. May I ask you folks a question? If you are a coues hunter, I am sure you do not draw a December tag every year. Do you put in for the stratified hunts in my neck of the woods? Should I throw a fit about every deer that is killed in October or November? This is a learning process for us all. We all have our own agenda's of what we want. Let me make these points: 1. We all need to work hard to preserve our heritage for our children and grandchildren. 2. We all need to think progressive and stay on top of what is going on. 3. We will all have to concede our personal desires for the betterment of the whole. 4. We all need to require the Department and Commission to be responsive the voice of their constituents, the hunters. 5. We all need to get on board with our Commissioners and the Department and listen to the ideas they have. This needs to be a team. They need to respect us and ask us before we get the treatment. We need to work with them and understand their ideas. I know of no one that has bitched more about this Department and Commission than I have. I am starting to learn. Although we do not agree, we all have valuable contributions to make. I hope we all can join together getting to know the Commissioners that are in our area. WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM FOLKS. IT IS THE ONLY TEAM WE HAVE.

Doug you are right. They have all had plenty of time to study everything. The way things are designed, the Commission is suppose to receive public input in three ways. One is at Commission meetings, the second is at public meetings held state wide, and the third is by written comments sent to them. I have requested the written comments that they all received back in March. I have received all 300+/- of the written comments. After reading the public comments, there is no way this Commission can go forward and approve the recommendations given to them this year and say that they are in any way responsive to the hunting constituents in this state. For them to approve the recommendations would be a total disregard of the hunting constituents based on the written public comments. The same holds true for all of the public meetings held across the state. The response and explanation given by the department explaining away consideration for the public comments given is lame. Many times it is contradictory. It?s like it is on a railroad and get out of the way. The same holds true for all of the public comments given a Commission meetings. Read the minutes of the December Commission meeting. Now at least one of the Commissioners wants to have comments made in another way that is not in the rules so far. One likes surveys. All the elk survey did was say the same thing that was said at the December Commission meeting that they did not listen to. Now we have a deer survey that may contradict most of the deer recommendations made this year. The icing on the cake is this Commission that directed the department to make recommendations to offer more opportunity will be asked to cut 6 days off of the January archery deer hunt that does not impact the resource. The reason the days must be cut is that if we push back the javalina hunt a week, it will stress out the pigs. Since we will hunt them from September through November and then again from January through March. They may get stressed out. Therefore we must shorten the archery deer season 6 days to accommodate 6 months of javalina hunting. I was born here in Arizona and have hunted every year since I was big enough to walk. I completed hunter safety when I was ten and have purchased a license and several tags every year since then. I belong to 6 different sportsmen conservation groups and have been to many of the Commission meetings in the last three years. I still do not have the voice or consideration needed to hold on to and retain 6 days of archery deer hunting in this state. The animal defense league, defenders of wildlife and earth first can show up and stop lion hunting for three months. Why would any sportsman want to waste his time supporting this circus? The Departments arguements and explanations many times do not make sense and are contradictory. On a positive note, I am glad to see they have realized the error made in picking the week they did to start the late whitetail and December archery hunt. Thank you Mr. Ordway and the Department for recognizing the error and correcting it. One other thing I must say is that I am proud of the way the Department has delegated the elk tags this year. The rifle hunters will have a net loss of 5 tags from last year and their bull tags will increase by 300 over last year. The archers will loose about 215 tags but their bull tags will remain the same as last year. This is sound game management protecting the resource and I applaud them for these recommendations.

As I think it has been pointed out, all of these recommendations are just that, recommendations. The Department is going forward with the recommendations that so far this Commission has not struck down. The Commission has heard them all and all of your comments so far. I believe the one change made so far moving the late firearms whitetail and the December archery deer up to December 15th was done because our Department explained to the Commission that when they changed to a certain number week in 2004 for this hunt, this was an oversight and not intended to happen. Therefore, I believe they were able to change this before the April meeting. Thank you Mr. Ordway for seeing this and being able to make this change. I can understand that it would be a good thing if we could have more December whitetail tags and more junior tags in southern Arizona. I am sorry to say we are really hurting down here. I have never seen this desert so dry with no vegetation. There is nothing for any animals to eat. I guess we might as well kill them, they will die anyway (that was sarcasm). I have been personally hurt and disheartened by what has transpired this year. I have lashed out and ripped everyone in site. I have become cynical. I doubt any Commissioner or anyone from the Department will listen to me anymore or want to be seen within a mile of me. I hope some of you with more sense, brains and a spirit to cooperation will attend the Commission meeting and be able to express your opinions to the Department and Commission 4/22/06. It is hard to group all of the thoughts we all have since many of you are from the north with your issues and many are from the south with our issues. Would I want to hunt deer or javalina in 36b in August? I don't think so. Being from the south, I think the idea the Department has about making a stratified hunt for whitetail in the rim country makes sense. I will stay out of the argument since that is not my dog. North or South, it is important that we have a voice and that the constituency of hunters are heard. We all know that the recommendations are contrary to the voice of the constituency and the Commission needs to hear all your voices expressing that. I think it is very important that they also hear from all the bowhunters that we need to hunt deer until January 31. I would gladly share that time with our juniors. There is also the strong idea out there of asking the Commission to scrap all of the recommendations this year. I would favor this idea and hope that if they chose this, we as hunters would reciprocate by being involved and showing our support for them and the Department. It sure would be nice if we all worked together in the spirit of cooperation for the good of the resource. Dave out

Trucks are a tricky thing. The one I have now that I will be selling soon has this alarm thing in it. I pushed the wrong button and got stuck on the top of a big mountain all night. I tryed to figgure it out in the dark a few times and just had to give up. Got up the next morning with no clue what to do. I finally turned the key on and jumped accross the starter and the thing started up. I drove straight home without shutting it off. Had to stop for gas once in Springerville but left the motor running. Finally made it home.

Good to see you youngins get the truck of your dreams. As you get older, you don't need your truck to stand as tall. You just hope is lasts a long time and never lets you down. Glad to see you have a positive attitude about your first experiences with it and realize that the really good things take place outside the truck and the truck brings you all home. After re-reading this, I think the truck is a special thing. Don't put too many expectations on the truck. It can only carry so much. It is up to you to decide how to use it. I just bought a new one (to me) today myself. I hope to have it by Tuesday. It has nerf bars so I can climb in it and I plan to put a camper shell on it and a bed in the back so I can take a nap.

Tony makes a good point, we need to look at this one and get it done. We also need to look at everything everyday. This Commission this year is providing more opposition to hunters than all of the evironmentals and animal rights folk have in the last three years. Everything seems to be a fight with not much cooperation. There is a time for everything. Now is the time to do this!

I hope you folks spend a little more time thinking about this. I think some of you may not understand it. Yes the state would have to pay to fight the lawsuit. I was at the Commission meeting in Safford in 2004 when the assistant attorney general advised our Commissioners that they could be personally held liable and also sued. They all had to tuck their tails and hide and I don't blame them. If this bill is signed into law, the State will bear the burden and the liability. The other thing to consider is that the state would have the total resources of the Attorney Generals office and not just one appointed assistant. It would be the states money on the line. What is totally mind boggling is that two of those Commissioners now oppose this? They got to run and hide back then while the hunters in this state lost our animals. They will run and hide in the future if put in the same situation. They want the power to control but won?t be there to fight for us when we lose our animals. They did not have to power to win the law suit and now they want the power they never had. This is not taking any power away from the Commission. The Commission made the rule and we are making it law. They want to be able to switch the rule and offer more opportunity if they want to. I don't. If there ever arises a condition that would warrant that action, the Commission still would have the power to change the rule if they were all in agreement and voted unanimously 5-0 for it.

Well BRKNAROW you have clients? You need to call the G&F to find out what the rules are?

This petition for rule change was heard and voted on at the December 2005 Commission meeting. The Commission voted unanimously to direct the department to make this rule change when the rule making process for Article 3 opens this May. This process will take approximately 18 months before the rule is actually changed and final. The Commission also directed the Department to issue this enforcement directive to allow archers to carry until the final rule making process is complete. Until this process is complete the Commission could change it. For now it is going as planned.

Congrats to all, nice lion. I thought the old guy in the cream colored pants was kinda cute. I can't believe he puts his hounds in the back of a Ford.

becker, I have to agree with that. I just worry about anyone too close to littlebear or tom. Those boys scare me

Being a wantabe bowhunter, I had a houndsman explain to me that still hunting for elk in their beds during the middle of the day was a bad thing to do. It would push the elk out of that area. I believe he is correct. Whats a hunter to do? You shouldn't use dogs, you shouldn't sit water, you shouldn't hunt them in their beds. Shoot, now I know why we have road hunters.

Redman, I will have to try the potatoe peeler thing. I think the person that can invent a good way to strip vanes off a carbon shaft will be a rich man. I would encourage any person that wants to make their own arrows to go for it. Get the cut-off saw, get some dust masks, have good ventilation, fast set gel will really screw you up. I am too slow to use an AZEZfletch. I have to use a bitzenberger.

Not to pick on the breeze here but I really think most houndsmen are far too good to chase bears with dogs. I wish they could all concentrate on killing lions.

I would like to hunt them, but after 50 you are just a decoy.

I need to study this more. If we take some of the 25 December whitetail tags from unit 34a, how much opportunity will that produce for the October and November hunts? How about the 25 December whitetail tags in 34b? Shazam this is really starting to add up to a LOT of opportunity. Hold on, I have to reset my calculator decimal point to be able to handle the opportunity. I am glad to see that the Department is right on top of archery success. If you look at the whitetail harvest in 36b, in 2001, 2002, there were ZERO bucks killed. It got way out of hand in 2003, there were 10 bucks harvested after a 6 week fall winter season combined with the 28 day season in August/September. Seems like that is about 70 days of archery hunting. Good thing they are cutting the season by two weeks. Hey, cutting the season, thats opportunity to take up golf. You can have a 10am T time after the frost has melted and don't need gloves to keep the cat claw from ripping your hands up. I just hope every hunter in this state shows up to as many meetings as they can and speaks out. This science makes me want to barf.

I am learning a lot here. I didn't know there was coues deer in 6A. Being a southern boy, I better just lay low down here in the cat claw. I didn't know you had all that nasty serious leg work going on up there. Must be something in the water that makes those bones grow.

Your Sportsmen dollars at work... Can anyone tell me how much money our G&F spent on the mountain lion fiasco in 2004 and it is still going on? Big Consultants, Big Seminars and educational meetings all across the state. All because a few animal rights people complained. There were more bowhunters opposing the Departments plans for archery elk at the last Commission meeting this past weekend. You know, the ones that pay for the big meetings. THEY WERE TOLD THEY DON'T COUNT. THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY OF THE VAST BOWHUNTING PUBLIC THAT WANTS MORE OPPORTUNITY. I SAY PROVE IT!!! If any of you have read my previous post, I thought the G&F should give the VAST BOWHUNTING COMMUNITY the chance to respond to a poll or survey that would clearly inform the bowhunters of three options for the archery elk season. 1. Keep the current structure. 2. Accept the Departments recommendation. 3. Accept an alternative (compromise) that the ABA would submit. I have been told that the Department will not conduct such a survey or poll. I have to believe the Department and Commission when they say this surely is not about money since they chose to spend so much supporting the wishes of a few animal rights folk. This must be about something deeper and more important. Hey, I am glad the ABA has the opportunity to come to the table and speak for VAST MAJORITY of bowhunters. I guess what they said at the Commission meeting fell on deaf ears, since it was not representative of THE VAST MAJORITY of bowhunters, now it gives them the opportunity to offer a compromise for the VAST MAJORITY OF BOWHUNTERS. Appears to me that Sandy, Stephanie, Rodney and Daniel are way more important than bowhunters. I will repeat, after the Department gets an alternative compromise from the ABA, THEY NEED TO CONDUCT A SURVEY OF THE VAST MAJORITY. They need to include the dates of each hunt and the number of tags in each hunt. LET US DETERMINE WHAT OPPORTUNITY WE WANT. If they are opposed to this consideration of the VAST MAJORITY OF BOWHUNTERS, then I would submit to all of you that this is all just about money and how to find opportunity to make more.

What I am talking about is narrowing the poll down to bowhunters and giving them specific choices to choose from.

Yes, if it is conducted properly with specific data to choose from and not just an vague question like, "would you like more opportunity?" Also, if they are able to document that the people completing the poll have a hunting license and have participated in the specific hunts being polled.

I would encourage all of you that are concerned about what has went forward and may become reality in April at the Hunt Set meeting constructively get involved. It seems the Commission has chosen the ABA to be the spokesperson for archers. They are asking the ABA to offer an alternative recommendation (compromise) to the Departments recommendation. Although almost every sportsmen group and many bowhunters ALL told the Commission that they were opposed to the proposed change and that they preferred a quality hunt over the opportunity that the Department proposed, the Department contended that the all bowhunters that were at the Commission meeting were in the minority of bowhunters and that the vast majority of bowhunters would prefer the added opportunity that the Departments proposal was offering. I would argue that whatever poll the Department conducted to conclude this did not include the specifics of their recommendation and give the bowhunters taking the pole the choice between their proposal and present hunt structure. I believe it was more just asking if you would like more opportunity without giving them any specifics to choose from. I would like to propose that we ask the Department to re-pole archery elk hunters prior to making any changes to the current structure. I think they could put this pole up on there website within a week and pass the collected data on to the public at the public meetings in January and February and allow people to continue to poll until the hunt set meeting in April. I would like to see three choices on the poll: 1. Keep the current archery elk hunt season structure. 2. Implement the Departments proposed changes. 3. Implement the ABA?s compromised proposal. Let all the bowhunters see the dates of the proposed hunts and the number of tags they would be applying for in order for them to make their choice. I would also like to make sure that the Department requires a hunting license number from the people that are able to take this poll and verifies that they have either purchased or applied for an archery permit or tag within the last two years. I would suggest the ADA also do a similar thing with deer.

Amanda, Thanks for your words today. I thought you were right on, on every point. I believe you understand more than the one that didn't understand you. I hope to help him understand it better.

I have found that just seeing and scaring the animal is much easier. That is my no gut method. It seems to work well for me. That way I can say it was as big as I thought it was with no problems from people that can't read a tape measure.

It is very hard to not really get upset when you know the drugs that come in this country and ruin many lives come through the southern Arizona desert. It is all about money. From the bottom to the top, from the top to the bottom, it is money that drives all this. The only thing worse than thinking about how the coyotes kill our kids with drugs is going to Walgreens. This is why there is no solution yet. The political corruption on this side seems to be as strong or stronger than the corruption south of the border. They just market it better. Money, Money, Money. One nation under money with slavery and unjustice for all.