KGAINES

Bill I think you may be right, but it seems like at the meeting they were saying that only 300 some calls were made, but 700+ were reported taken by the paper survey or by field checks. Someone may be able to remember what the exact numbers were, but if I am right it is more than 30 percent, but still not enough for them. They are now printing the number and the requirement on the tag, it is on the bottom on the left side while looking at it, I think the problem was most people didn't know. The numbers they have are probably as scientific as the numbers in the survey so I wonder if it matters.

Doug I think this is a relatively simple request, all you have to do is call, it has to be that the archery hunters just don't know that they are required to do it, I think the azgfd got their data from field checks and the paper surveys that are mailed out and that didn't add up to the calls received. All of us need to get the word out to other hunters, I would hate to lose the over the counter archery tags. One thing to take note of too, is that with them lowering the december rifle hunters the best rut hunt opportunity is going to be with a bow.

Are they porcupines or echidna, They are cool looking, I don't know about cute though.

Congrats on the new toy.

I can look at this a couple of ways, 6,500 of 100,000 is probably a better percentage than we get at most elections and could have been looked at in that way also. The azgfd sent out 44,000 e-mails and the ADA sent out 15,000 paper surveys some of these could have been to the same people, but we can assume that at least 55,000 to 60,000 people got this survey and all we could muster is 6,500 people to take it. I can't see why someone couldn't take a few minutes of their time to fill out a survey that could affect your hunting future, that is unless you don't care, that if you go hunting this year or next oh well, that if your kids don't go hunting, one less thing to worry about, or probably the biggest reasons of all is that we believe that they just can't stop hunting or that somebody else will take care of it for us. The azgfd isn't going to stop hunting that is their biggest source of income, but they can change it for the wrong reasons, money, people complaining about not getting drawn, trying to make the anti's happy too ( lions and prairie dogs ), if we don't like these changes we have to be there to tell them so, not twenty of us, a few hundred would be great, a few thousand and we probably get everything we want hands down. As I have said before this last meeting was the first one I have ever went to, I have filled out the surveys, I have written letters, they can dismiss surveys, they can put thousands of letters in a single box and read only a few, a few hundred hunters standing there wanting to speak probably outweighs all of that, a letter can't talk back, a letter can't express how you truly feel, we need to get people to these meetings and have them explain how they feel. I love to hunt, I really hope my kids do too and I will try to do what I can to keep it that way. Good Luck and God Bless

Happy Birthday Good Luck and God Bless

Congrats on the pup. Good Luck and God Bless

When they dismissed the survey as not scientific plus there was a very small showing of support, the AZGFD can pretty much say what they want. We just can't let it happen again.

Ok I went to the meeting, first time I ever have, but I thought that with the changes that were proposed I needed to be there. I sat and watched as the deer proposal was brought up and anyone who had filled out their cards and wanted to speak could. I decided not to speak at that time knowing that the ADA was going to speak and use the survey results to show how AZ hunters felt, worst mistake I have ever made when it comes to me and my hunting future and I will tell you why. First Chris Denham got up and made the ADA presentation whuch included the survey plus some data about the Kaibab, he went step for step through all his points plus question per question on the survey with the findings. I think the first question he was asked by one of the commissioners was if he represented all the members of the ADA or was he just saying that he was representing them ( they asked this question of every speaker who claimed to be a part of a group ), he said he was representing the ADA plus the survey represented what the huning public of AZ wanted, a couple of commissioners decided at that point to disregard the survey and tell us how it was not random therefore it did not represent the 100,000 hunters who applied for deer last year, he then told them that he had talked with an mit student or grad I am not sure , but they stated it was a good survey, the commissioner at that time told him while it may be good it was not scientific, at this point I was pissed off, whether it was scientific or not that survey represented the 6500 hunters who cared the most and who took the time to take the survey. After that quite a few members of various clubs got up and spoke and re-iterated their support for the ADA and the survey, all of which were dismissed without regard, until Dick King of the ABA got up and said that this survey should have as much value as the elk survey. Commissioner Mclellen I think took exception to this and proceeded to tell Mr. King that he didn't listen and he didn't ever listen, chairman melton at that time jumped all over the commision, telling them that he didn't need the survay at all, he knew that the ADA were representing the hunting public and that any time there was work to be done they were the ones doing it, he got an applause during the meeting. It was one of the most frustrating things to set through and watch a five or so people decide for everyone when 6500 don't matter. I didn't stay for the final vote because they had already decided what was the final proposal, they changed some youth hunts, extended the oct. seasons, and kept the archery seasons as they had always been. I think that after this year if you decide that you don't like what happened or are afraid what might happen in the future that you need to show up at these meetings and let them hear you, this was the first time I have ever went, it will not be my last, I will get up and speak and tell them that I represent myself, if I support a group I will let them know that I support them also. If we could have 1/10th of the hunters who took the survey at the meeting we could all speak and let them know that those results are valid, we could each take our three minutes, tell them how you feel, if there were 650 people there wanting to take three minutes each to speak on hunting and the proposals, they would get the messege, it would be a sort of filibuster on our parts, but since they want to know haow these groups represent we ought to show them. I am very sorry for such a long post, I am sorry if I missed something, or misspelled someones name, I am going on memory alone and that might not be best. I think at this time me speaking wouldn't have mattered, but it would have sure made me feel better. It was very nice to meet you Amanda, we are very lucky to have you and the ADA representing the hunting public of Arizona. This is an E-mail I received from the ADA Commission Meeting Results As announced, the AZ Game and Fish Commission meeting was Saturday, April 22. The Arizona Deer Association presented the results of the Deer Survey that you took part in. An overwhelming majority of the 6,500 hunters that participated in the survey indicated that overall they did not approve of the Departments recommended changes to the deer hunts. Hunters wanted the hunt structures to remain as they were last year. Unfortunately the Commission was not convinced that 6,500 hunters that participated in the survey represented the views of the "average" hunter. To make things worse, only about 15 to 20 people showed up at the meeting to represent their views on the proposed changes to the deer hunts. The Commission modified some of the items within the Departments recommendation after requests from the Arizona Deer Association, other sportsmen's groups as well as concerned individuals. They reduced the number of junior's doe permits on the Kaibab from 400 to 100. They also reclassified 300 general antlered deer permits from other hunt units to "junior's hunts" in order to replace the 300 12AW junior's doe permits that were cut. They voted to keep the January archery deer season ending date as January 31 (as it has been). Lastly, they voted to change the October whitetail deer season to be a 6 day season. All other changes that the Department recommended were approved. It was interesting to note that with the relatively poor turnout by deer hunters, there were about half that many very vocal people from the Earth First and Animal Defense League representing their views. These people individually took the time to stand before the Commission nine separate times to request the elimination of all bighorn sheep, mountain lion, and prairie dog hunting. Fortunately for hunters, the Commission did not take action on these requests (this time). Below are the actual statistics from the survey. For some reason the bar graph for the first few questions did not duplicate correctly. Look at the actual percentages for the correct statistics.

It is so much all at once, it is almost impossible to organize for or against all of them together at the same time.

I don't think it should be a us against them or a me against you thing, the survey has polled a lot of hunters, and I am sure they are from all over the state, plus several non-residents, and it is overwhelmingly in favor of keeping it the way it is. That sounds like we are mostly on the same team, our opinions might change if the game and fish gave better reasons for the changes than opportunity, and I don't think moving tags to oct. and giving ten days is going to give people opportunity, those were units with 100% draw odds and if any of us just wanted to hunt all we had to do was pick one of those, now with ten days those odds are not going to be 100%, but like I said I have a bow and I have 100% opportunity every year, but they are shortening that as well, and there aren't a lot of people in favor of that either, though the Jan. archery got a lot of votes to shorten the season with the lengthening of a juniors only Javelina hunt. Maybe I just don't want to see all this change at once, a little at a time would maybe be better, at least then they could see the overall impact on the deer and the responses from the hunters afterwards and decide whether to change it back or proceed forward, but once you make so many changes it will be hard to tell what changes are for the better of for the worse.

The only way he's safe if Lark is shooting is if there is a big old cornflinger close by.

migolito, let me ask you what your answers are, how do you fix our problems, since nobody in AZ is smart enough to figure out how to manage our wildlife, I would like to hear your suggestions, I mean you guys have done a great job in CA, I would like to know how to fix ours and while your at it why don't you just give us the answers as to how to fix the problems facing hunting across the entire country.

Good Luck to you All, God and their dads help them kids get their Turkeys. Have fun.

Welcome back, again. Kingman there aren't any Coues in Kingman, but then again there aren't any in Sun City either.

My fifth choice a few years ago is what got me started on coues deer, it was an oct. hunt down south and I had a blast simply because I was hunting and on top of that I was seeing places I hadn't seen before. The following year it was my first choice, an oct. four day hunt and it was my first choice, I was scouting my unit in june, I knew I was getting drawn and where, had a great time again. I would like it to stay that way, four day hunts in oct. down south create opportunity, if you wanted a tag all you had to do was choose one of those hunts. The northern units are different, mule deer, elk, coues deer, turkey, and whatever else I might not be thinking of right now are all hunted in the fall and that creates an added pressure on these units, and the dec. hunt stands alone for those lucky enough to get drawn, why take away. Why make the the oct. hunts ten days, the hunt success will go up and in a few years there will be no dec. rifle tags, for those lucky enough to get those dec. tags now, it creates a great hunting experience to hunt the coues deer in the rut, don't get me wrong I will still put in for oct. hunts and they can be great as well, but it won't be dec. I don't see where the system they have now is broke, and if it isn't broke don't fix it, if money is the reason behind it, then come out and say it and charge me more, I would except that a lot better than the the simple lie that they are trying to create more opportunity.

Well apparently there is nobody like Gen. Patton left in California.

It is funny how very few people complained a few years ago when ten percent was the norm., then we get sued and its a free for all, no limits, + a bunch of extra tags that were suddenly made available to keep it (FAIR). Now we are back to ten percent and a lot of people are crying foul, fifteen percent would be fair and noone would complain, except the people that want twenty or thirty or well there really shouldn't be no limits because it is public land or federal land or whatever. At this point I don't care what you think migolito, we as hunters of this state will continue to fight for what we believe in and then if it turns on us we will have ourselves to blame. I think you need to try to rally your california residents and try to get back what you have already lost and stop worrying about whether you can get a tag in AZ every year. No matter what happens somebody is always going to have a problem with something, and if it is a fight in AZ for our hunting rights, at least it is a fight, we haven't just given up. az4life we have to remember that this website is possible because of AlGore, didn't he say he invented the internet, and if he said it it must be true. not

I think the one thing that is forgotten is that uso sued us, we didn't just wake up one morning and decide to make it residnt v. non-resident issue, uso did that. I think you can ask just about any non-resident who has hunted in AZ and I doubt they were treated badly, and on this forum I have seen several get information on where, when, and how to hunt Coues deer. Any CA resident can still drive over and buy an archery tag to hunt deer, and turkey, not to mention they can buy and over the counter tag to hunt bear and yes you can still hunt LIONS here, just look at the many pictures posted just this year, and ours don't even have to eat a person to be hunted. So I personally think AZ still has great hunting opportunities for anybody, and the prices are still cheaper than most. The hunting opportunities are changing for all of us everyday and the easiest place for us to let our kids hunt is in the state we live in, be it small or large game, and anything out of state is a bonus, we should all always help each individual state keep their hunting opportunities. Good Luck to all in this years draw, but I still have a bow so I will hunt anyway.

Congrats to all of you, great story and pics.

What Starts with F and ends with K? A first-grade teacher, Ms. Brooks, was having trouble with one of her students. The teacher asked, "Harry, what's your problem?" Harry answered, "I'm too smart for the 1st grade. My sister is in the 3rd grade and I'm smarter than she is! I think I should be in at least the 3rd grade too!" Ms. Brooks had had enough. She took Harry to the principal's office. While Harry waited in the outer office, the teacher explained to the principal what the situation was. The principal told Ms. Brooks he would give the boy a test. If he failed to answer any of his questions he was to go back to the 1st grade and behave. She agreed. Harry was brought in and the conditions were explained to him and he a greed to take the test. Principal: "What is 3 x 3?" Harry: "9." Principal: "What is 6 x 6?" Harry: "36." And so it went with every question the principal thought a 3rd grader should know. The principal looks at Ms. Brooks and tells her, "I think Harry can go to the 3rd grade." Ms. Brooks says to the principal, "Let me ask him some questions." The principal and Harry both agreed. Ms. Brooks asks, "What does a cow have four of that I have only two of?" Harry, after a moment: "Legs." Ms. Brooks: "What is in your pants that you have but I do not have?" The principal wondered why would she ask such a question! Harry replied: "Pockets." Ms. Brooks: "What does a dog do that a man steps into?" BR> Harry: "Pants." Ms. Brooks: What starts with a C, ends with a T, is hairy, oval, delicious and contains thin, whitish liquid?" Harry: "Coconut." The p rincipal sat forward with his mouth hanging open. Ms. Brooks: "What goes in hard and pink then comes out soft and sticky?" The principal's eyes opened really wide and before he could stop the answer, Harry replied, "Bubble gum." Ms. Brooks: "What does a man do standing up, a woman does sitting down and a dog does on three legs?" Harry: "Shake hands." The principal was trembling. Ms. Brooks: "What word starts with an 'F' and ends in 'K' that means a lot of heat and excitement?" Harry: "Firetruck." The principal breathed a sigh of relief and told the teacher, "Put Harry in the fifth-grade, I got the last seven questions wrong......". --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Jim if your in the middle of nowhere and it breaks, I make service calls. You guys both have great machines, they should serve you well. Dave my mom offered to give me her suzuki years ago and I told her I didn't want the thing, bad mistake, she was driving it to and from work every day and everything worked.

Sent you a pm Doug.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=198 Has anybody seen or tried the lever evolution ammo.

I am planning on being at the meeting, I don't know if it will matter, but I want to be there and hopefully there are a lot more people there. I think the survey should have some influence, but then again they are politicians.