KGAINES

Too bad a big steel jawed bear trap is illegal to put out there, the funny thing is you could pput a sign up saying cameras in the area protected by bear traps and some idiot (probably the thief)would get caught in it and sue you. The same thing would happen if you shot the s.o.b., that is why you carry a full face ski mask and a bat, if you catch them you can whoop their tail and work them over real good and all the can say is I can't describe him, and as far as engraving goes if anyone ever catches one of these guys engrave thief right on their forehead, that way every time one of us see him we can punch him in the face just for the fun of it.

Desertbull, you are right.

No I got it, I did cheat after I answered. Google is an amazing tool, and no the answer isn't the guy on the blacktail website

Tony have you read anything by Craig Childs, interesting reading when you consider what we think is a drought. I can't quite believe everything I read in his book though some is true, but I can see where others could, especially who have never set foot in the desert and then believe we should never mess with water and habitat because we are making it worse on the wildlife. I would love to hear your thoughts if you have read it.

No I answered first and checked when you said I was wrong. I will not answer again, I meant I would wait for someone to get it right.

I now know, but will wait. Never would have got it. I have read plenty of books through the years too.

Fred Bear, or maybe Ernest Hemmingway

Well the azgfd was looking for the support of organizations and hunters to help with this sales tax initiative they were trying to get, I look at it this way if they won't listen to us then why should we listen to them. Right now the way I feel about the azgfd and their (support) of hunters is they can take their sales tax initiative and shove it...., and I know that it is just one thing, but every year for the last three or four years it has been just one thing, it is adding up and I am pissed.

I think they only give out 50 tags in december because they are giving out 700 plus tags in the oct. and nov. hunts. Now if they can set up a draw in that unit for archery they can give out 50 rifle and lets say 50 archery tags for dec., and then give out 900+ rifle tags and who knows how many archery tags for the oct. and nov. seasons and they can say it is justified.

I knew I missed something, that right there should make them study, it wouldn't be good to take the class and show up at the field day only to keep asking dad or mom for answers. Thanks Tony

Tony I didn't see anywhere on there for an age limit for the course, I wonder if a ten year old will comprehend an online course as opposed to an actual class. Hopefully parents will take the time and make sure the kids get it, and not take the classes for them. I do like the idea and hope the youngsters benifit from it.

According to AZGFD the coues numbers have been on a steady increase over the last five years, and the mule deer numbers have been on the increase in units on the rim and other northern units while they are on the decline in the southern units due to drought, this is what I heard from them. If the numbers are on the increase then why cut back opportunity with a bow, unless they are looking for a way to increase opportunity with a gun. I don't think it is a money issue with game and fish since they will lose a huge portion of archery hunters by doing this, unless they can recoup the losses by raising tag fees and giving out more rifle tags and the more they give out the 10% out of state number increases as well. Just remember out of state hunters can archery hunt here every year over the counter as well so I don't know if AZGFD would get support from there either.

With that prison on the other side of the mountain the shooting range will protect the houses that will eventually be built there. Sheriff Joe ought to make all the prisoners in that one wear shirts with bullseyes, heck he should make the child molestors hold the targets at the range.

Tony I have read what you said and I just don't think it can be broken down that easily, try to get stuff like that by politicians and see if they don't change it. Heck they would change it and say we asked for it, kind of like they tried with the overlap issue. No matter how we look at it there is going to be issues from any change and they could be a lot worse than they are right now, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. People who are against the special tags will use this for ammunition against them and the people that use these funds will have yet another fight on their hands. I can add this too; I am not a guide, I have never been a guide, I just like to hunt, I don't have and may never have the money to purchase one of these tags, I have never been a part of one of these hunts, I can however purchase a few super raffle tickets for a chance at a tag and no I wouldn't hire a guide I would spend as much time out of that year hunting as possible just for the fun of doing it. I have said this before also, I didn't realize all the behind the scenes political crap that goes on in the AZGFD and the commission until I read about it on here, then I went to a commission meeting and watched in amazement as they tried to discredit what the ADA did with their survey, and what some of the studies that were done on the Kaibab revealed. I went to an ADA meeting and have been going ever since, it is my way of doing my part to preserve hunting in AZ for all of us and especially for my kids, and if some sucker with a lot of money wants to pay 135,000 dollars for a tag then God Bless him, he does need to follow the rules and obey the laws and hopefully use some common sense in the process, and if he doesn't then hopefully the justice system will work as it should for all lawbreakers, special or not. If there was a way to get rid of the ADA, AES, ADBSS, ABA, and the rest of the so called alphabet groups the commission that is in there now would sure look into it because these groups are who notifies the public when something is getting ready to happen, this website helps with that, but you can bet that the person starting the topic is part of one of these groups, and the commission looks at these groups as a thorn in their side, they only suck up when it will benefit them. dustyb0 as you can tell my vote is for the tags. Who cares what other states do with their tags, AZ still has some of the best quality hunting in the united states when it comes to QUALITY, but our game and fish dept. is trying to follow these other state models and where is that going to get us.

Unless these stamps are a requirement it won't work, how many people donate part of their refund to the habitat, I would like to see that data. Also are these stamps going to be species specific, coues, muley, bighorn, elk, etc..., not to mention that I doubt the commission would be able to allocate that money if it was from a stamp to a specific group to monitor it and why would they, and I would hope it wouldn't have to go through the legislature because that could be a train wreck. We have a pretty simple process right now, the super raffle and the auction tags, I like simple especially when it comes to politicians and yes the commissioners are politicians. I see this what could be a stupid mistake made by someone and us turning it into a collosal mistake that could cost hunters, wildlife, and habitat in AZ for many years. We need to let the law do its job, let the process run its course, and let the justice system deal with this as they should in any case like this be it during a regular hunt or a special hunt, and not jump to change something that was not broke.

How many people would apply for an archery only hunt and that be their only hunt, a lot less than the 30,000. Plus if we allow that and they get a lot of apps for certain units they will start cutting down the number of days allowed for each hunt and have seperate archery hunts for each unit, a certain amount in aug., they can probably split dec. into two hunts, and the same for jan., thats five seperate hunts that they can add, or they can leave it alone and continue to work on the mandatory harvest reports. One more thing that I look at as well, AZ and our animals and habitat produce excellent quality animals that the AZGFD has spent years to get that way, now they are trying to model our state after the ones that are for the most part mediocre, we are heading in the wrong direction if you ask me.

I posted this in another thread also, I seen this thread after the post and it applies here as well. The way auction tag money works as I am told and have seen is this, the commission awards the tags to specific groups for example the ADA, the ADA then auctions it at their banquet. The money raised from this tag sale is kept by the ADA in a tag fund, the azgfd comes to the ADA with projects they would like to work on with the ADA and use tag fund money, or the ADA approaches the azgfd with a project for tag fund money. In a sense that money is taken care of by the specific groups that sale these tags, there is another benefit that I see with these tags and the banquets, the banquets raise money for groups to do projects without the azgfd, these tags bring more than one person to the banquet that is going to spend money. We all like the banquets, the raffles, and the auction items that they have, but there are some of these things that we can't afford that raise alot of money for these groups, these people that are out to buy these tags also spend their money on other stuff at these banquets that in turn helps the groups, and the wildlife in AZ. I would never have known this until I went to the ADA meetings and seen what happens, all of these groups do things that help wildlife and sportsmen. If it was just money collected from tag fees, license fees, or a stamp, the azgfd would have total control of how thee money was spent, good or bad I don't know, but I take a little comfort in knowing that in a way sportsmen have a say in how the money is spent. The auction tag bull was an unfortunate event and I don't know what happened, but in all the years of these tags this is the first time I have heard such a big deal made about it ( and I am not saying that a big deal shouldn't be made),but that tells me that until this year there hadn't been an issue. If we allow a one time bad incident to rush us to change things we could be making it worse, without better options and knowing the ramifications we shouldn't rush to change something without something better lined up.

The way auction tag money works as I am told and have seen is this, the commission awards the tags to specific groups for example the ADA, the ADA then auctions it at their banquet. The money raised from this tag sale is kept by the ADA in a tag fund, the azgfd comes to the ADA with projects they would like to work on with the ADA and use tag fund money, or the ADA approaches the azgfd with a project for tag fund money. In a sense that money is taken care of by the specific groups that sale these tags, there is another benefit that I see with these tags and the banquets, the banquets raise money for groups to do projects without the azgfd, these tags bring more than one person to the banquet that is going to spend money. We all like the banquets, the raffles, and the auction items that they have, but there are some of these things that we can't afford that raise alot of money for these groups, these people that are out to buy these tags also spend their money on other stuff at these banquets that in turn helps the groups, and the wildlife in AZ. I would never have known this until I went to the ADA meetings and seen what happens, all of these groups do things that help wildlife and sportsmen. If it was just money collected from tag fees, license fees, or a stamp, the azgfd would have total control of how thee money was spent, good or bad I don't know, but I take a little comfort in knowing that in a way sportsmen have a say in how the money is spent. The auction tag bull was an unfortunate event and I don't know what happened, but in all the years of these tags this is the first time I have heard such a big deal made about it ( and I am not saying that a big deal shouldn't be made),but that tells me that until this year there hadn't been an issue. If we allow a one time bad incident to rush us to change things we could be making it worse, without better options and knowing the ramifications we shouldn't rush to change something without something better lined up.

Josh that avatar looks like jens pulver on crack.

Doug you are pointing him in the right direction for sure, I have seen elk in those areas for many years, including last year.

I have always seen them northwest of campwood in 17A. send me a PM

Casey I didn't say we didn't think alike, I just wanted you to admit it.

Good luck to you on this, but I would rather be hunting opening morning than catching a thief, and that is if he even shows up. I am not saying don't go after the guy, by all means try everything you can to catch him, maybe get in touch with the wildlife manager and see what he thinks about the thief, maybe he can do the work for you an opening day, and you can be free to hunt. Again take care and good luck.

Great pics Amanda. Casey who are you trying to kid, one 140 grain accubond, I am not doubting you would get the shoulder, lung, and heart, I just figure you would use a bullet for each spot, plus a couple more fore good measure.

http://hoalarizona.org/ there you go, but I would still send Terry a message or an email. Thanks