Tines

MattMan, Congratulations to your kids! It's nice to hear when the heritage is being passed on to the next generation. It's only going to get harder to get them off of the couch with technology these days. Hunting, by nature (especially in AZ), is "punitive". We can't have it all, all of the time. We know what happens when we DO have it our way. But that's logic, not punishment like you're eluding to. But going back to what I mentioned in my last post. What's so wrong with "waiting your turn"? That's all I'm saying... Reducing applicants by 1000 won't do anything to statistically change your odds. Please explain this to me. I'd expect the odds to change drastically if 1000 applicants didn't apply for your favorite hunt. I DO suck at math so please help me understand this. I guess some might look at drawing a premium tag as "punishment" because it MIGHT limit you for a couple of years after that. But this "punishment" you keep eluding to would ONLY apply to the species that DON'T offer an alternative to their respective rut hunts. Why aren't we complaing about how "punitive in nature" it is to hunt sheep and buffalo in Arizona? That's not fair that I can only kill one buffalo in my lifetime. Or after both Rocky and Desert, I'm done?!? That's crazy! We both know that it's not crazy and it makes sense. Why is waiting a "punishment"? We would be waiting because we were more fortunate than thousands of other applicants! Let's look at it like "wow, I drew one of the most coveted tags in the world and got to experience something that many hunters dream about.... I can wait a couple of years to apply again". Sorry about your buddy who found some "friends" to apply with. Losing a good hunting friend is just as bad as a good girlfriend- they know ALL your secrets! Ha! Good luck to you and your wife on this hunt. Sounds like you guys know EXACTLY what you have. I like that in a hunter. Make sure you keep us posted on your successes. It's right around the corner!!

You really don't know how good something is until you use it often. Key word, "often". IMO, a reliable pack is vital. After that, the extra cost for whatever the item is you're purchasing is an after-thought. But I use my pack for weeks at a time during the hunting season. Most people don't use them for more than a weekend or two. So take a look at how often you'll use something and your budget might change a little. I used to be a Badlands guy until I broke down and bought an Eberlestock. I use the Dragonfly. When I say "broke down", they're really not that expensive considering their longevity. I've had mine since 2008. I had my Badlands 2200 for 3 seasons before that. It did okay but it wouldn't fit everything I needed for coues deer hunts AND COMFORTABLY pack a coues deer out. Their warranty was great but it sucked sending it back to get sewn back up or zippers replaced (zippers break OFTEN on them!!). They also sent me their "scabbard" for the 2200. Hardly a scabbard. I know I didn't care to put $1500 worth of rifle in it.... Packs are like boots, binos, tires, etc... Absolutely you can go cheaper and get away just fine. But depending on how OFTEN you use them and what you're using them for, you'd better consider spending the extra money. Otherwise, you could easily be stuck in the field with blisters on your feet, a huge headache and inability to focus your eyes for hours, or maybe just a couple of blown tires. But if you don't hike, glass or leave the pavement, you'll save a TON of money....if you catch my drift. Hope this helps.... I used to spend $150 every year on a pair of Danner Pronghorns boots. They were really nice! Lightweight, super comfortable, quiet, warm.... But dangit, they wouldn't last me more than a year! So I bought a $300 pair of Danner Sierra's. Sucked at first to drop the "extra" $ but I'm on my 4th season with this pair and I'm a happy hunter. You see how sometimes saving money doesn't save you money in the end when you use something often? Which is another reason I LOVE Harbor Freight! I don't use tools enough to justify spending the extra money and the cheap ones last long enough for me. Good luck!

Soooo...... you're comparing the Kofa's and sheep to coues deer now?? Your biggest "argument" was the impact that lions have on the coues deer population, not a "herd of like fourty sheep or so" in the Kofa's. Stick with the point you were trying to make The Kofa's are a unique place, far from "typical coues habitat". Comparitively speaking, substantially less small game animals to sustain a lions diet. So yes, one can easily see why a biologist might want to protect a dwindling sheep herd. It's clear what a lions main diet might consist of if 90% of it's available resources are SHEEP! But did we really need that explained??? Yes, on a rare ocassion, there might be a "problem lion" that needs to be discharged. For example: a calf killer, one that lives off of sheep or other a-typical behaviors. But it doesn't even take a book to understand why it needs to happen.... I've also got to make something clear. Nobody asked me to post this. I also don't think it's necessary to defend azlongears' comments. They were sound and factual. Like he mentioned above, we've got to think about what information we're spreading on the internet or around the campfire. It's obvious that there's a lot of misinformation being spread that "re-affirms" that hunters are "just a bunch of ignorant fools".

Need more pictures. Could be high 60's from that picture...

I think this is pretty accurate. G and F really could care less about whether or not people can scout or not because fuel is $3.50 a gallon. It's application fees. And I agree that most hunters will at the very least apply for a BP. Sure, ever since that line was drawn south of I-10, purchasing a BP has become the norm. But that should actually MAKE the dept more money in the end.

Is there a perfect answer to this question. I haven't found it (and neither have they, obviously). But I think it's many factors. The economy, paper applications, supply vs demand, "more opportunity", and what I think is A HUGE factor, kids who have too many distractions where they never have to leave their couch or the computer desk. One thing in the departments control is the online applications deal. Really, how difficult is this???? Maybe if our society and school systems weren't so ignorant, they'd allow hunting as a recreation and conservation tool be taught in our schools. Instead it's quite the opposite being shoved down these students' throats. I heard one time that the best way to win an argument is to argue the other side first. Obviously they're not doing this. Here's an idea (and I haven't seen any numbers to prove my theory). Turn these leftover permits into "non-permit" tags. This is assuming that there are some hunt #'s not selling all of its permits authorized (not sure if this has been the case). This would allow those of us who drew a deer tag to pick up a leftover, hunt both hunts, but only fill one of the tags. And when the second hunt is over, you MUST return the unfilled permit. Otherwise!!! It really wouldn't be any more of a liability than the current mandatory harvest reports for non-permit tags. Just an idea to make sure they're maximizing their application fee potential.

I have a few problems with what you're doing but the main issues are these. #1. It's not yours so what makes you think it's acceptable???? Mind-boggling.... #2. Say you and your buddy stumble into a new area and find a camera. You WRONGFULLY check out the pictures and find that a giant coues buck is in the area. You guys get all giddy like most coues hunters do when they see a giant and can't wait to spend every waking hour in there. In the mean time, your buddy that swears "not to tell a soul" about the buck, tells his brother. You find that out later but you don't mind too much because "it's family". But then his brother tells his best friend because HE can SURELY keep a secret and it stops there, right? Right? You see where I'm going with this. And if you don't believe me, you haven't been hunting long enough. You did NOTHING to find that buck but look through a fellow hunters' belongings. You all but "stole" that buck. We can't have this mentality, people....

Not to hijack the thread but after reading this, it got me thinking. Uh oh! First off, to the original poster, I hope you find some bucks and shoot a good one. I'm sure you'll do great with this tag! Some friends and I go round and round about this also. IMO (and it's not worth much but I'll share it anyway), I'd like to see a 3yr waiting period accompanied with the BP system. I noticed that you and your wife drew the tag with 10 points this year. Nice to hear that you'll be hunting with her! Way cool! I'm just wondering if you like the current system because you obviously benefited from it? Most people who like the current system are those who benefit from it regularly. When I say "most", I don't mean all. Myself, for example, I've benefited from it with coues deer tags. I've been fortunate to draw a few december tags over the past 8 seasons. But, even then, I'd much rather see someone else enjoy that hunt instead of myself who went the year before. That's the honest truth. Then again, 1 archery cow tag in 17 yrs of applying is hard to swallow for me. I know, "waahhh!!!" Good thing I'm young. When I suggest a waiting period, I would recommend a waiting period after a "premium tag" is drawn. Most of us know what those are (many being antlered or horned species during the rut). I'd be a proponent of allowing successful applicants to still apply the following year, just not the premium permits (i.e. antelope, sheep, bull elk in the rut, deer in the rut, etc...). I think differently about the new hunter/tagholder or recruiting new hunters. This will actually give them a BETTER chance of drawing a premium tag for their first tag. Just means they have to wait a couple of years for THAT tag again. But how cool is it that they can still apply for "lesser" hunts or BP's while waiting?!?! Say a new guy draws an ERB (early rifle bull) tag with 1 BP. He hunts and kills a big bull. He probably had the most amazing experience (hunting wise) of his life during that hunt and can't wait to do it again. So now you tell him he can't apply for THAT hunt next year but he can apply for any cow tag (even during the rut, I might add) or a late rifle bull tag. I'll bet you anything that it's gonna be hard to come down from the clouds from the year before and all that matters is "I gotta get back into the field!". So he'll more than likely apply for a late rifle bull tag. Or at the very least, he's going to apply for a BP to increase his chances in a couple of years if he CHOOSES to wait. So either way, G&F get's their application fee. Because lets face it, permit numbers don't vary by much year to year so those funds stay constant. Like you mentioned, your odds aren't increased by much, but they do, none-the-less. And it gets better and better the next year! More so than strictly playing the BP game, anyway. Last time I checked there were about 6,000 1st and 2nd choice apps for this hunt. Crazy! Now, for arguments sake, lets say nobody new applies for this hunt the following year. You've now only got 5,940 applying for it. Drop in the bucket, I know. But the following year it's 60 more. So now it's 5,880. Still, stupid small odds. The following, 5,820. Theoretically, it reduces 180 applicants from this point on with a 3 year waiting period. But the entire time, those not drawn are accruing BP's. I realize this is minute, but it does make sense. Unless my math is wrong and I'll be the first to tell you that I'm no math whiz! In the mean time, I'll suck it up and deal with it I guess. Now let's look at those applying for THIS permit. I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of those know exactly what this tag is all about. Considering that, you're probably dealing with a group of applicants that are willing to wait 3 more years to draw that permit again (all the while collecting BP's). I don't know, that's just my guess, anyway. Now onto "easier" premium tags to draw. Let's go with archery bull or Dec wt. Some of those hunts have similar draw odds to each other. So theoretically, it should increase your chances even MORE with these when it's all said and done. As far as discouraging future generations because of a waiting period. This is a touchy subject with me. As I LOVE to help kids take animals they otherwise wouldn't have a chance at IF IT ENCOURAGES THEM TO STICK WITH IT! Many on this site know Lance. I've hunted with him for almost 10 years now. I have a great respect for him (although we disagree on THIS discussion, I might add! HA!). Lance raised his kids to enjoy the outdoors and appreciate the opportunity to hunt. Which means from the beginning he applied them for the easiest permits to draw. He made it a point to teach them at a young age that it's not about shooting the biggest, it should ALWAYS be about just being out there. I've never been around such appreciative youth hunters than his kids. They are as hardcore as they come. They take big game animals year after year and are freakishly good at it. They're flat out "killers"! But here's the best part, they can now do it without their dad and are more successful than many adults I know. IMO, it's because they were taught the right way from the beginning. Why is this relevant? Because I'm suggesting that maybe we should re-think what we might be instilling in the future generations of hunters. Last time I checked, Colorado has OTC elk tags so why does the preference point system discourage you (or at least your children) from applying? What the heck is so wrong with having your kids shoot a cow elk or a raghorn bull?? And are we that naive to believe that some 15 yr old who shoots B&C critters year after year indicates that he's THAT much more of a hunter than Joe the plumbers son who shoots "immature" animals year after year? We're country, but not THAT country. I think its easy to get caught up in the success of our kids because its a reflection of us. Subconsciously it just might have nothing to do with them. We need to be careful that it's not our egos at the forefront. As a side note, I'm not suggesting we go to a preference point system either. I don't want that for reasons even you touched upon. What's so wrong with teaching kids that if they draw a premium tag, they have to wait a couple of years to draw THAT tag again? We've got EVERYTHING at our fingertips these days that it's getting out of control. It's getting harder and harder to "wait" for anything. My wife and I struggle everyday with the concept of teaching our kids patience. I made jello today but it wasn't the instant kind and they gave me this funny look like "huh, why do we have to wait 4hrs??" Too often, when their picture is taken, they say "let me see, let me see!!" Not their fault with these fancy new cameras and everything but once again, whether it's waiting for food, photo "processing" or feeling entitled to another premium bull tag, its becoming absolutely ridiculous. If we're having to explain to our 11 yr old that they need to wait a couple of years to go hunting, maybe we ought to reconsider the hunts or states we're applying them for (obviously with 1 season species there's no way around that). Now lets be realistic, I don't know anyone who is going to have their child pass on some 340 bull standing next to a raghorn to "teach him a lesson". If that's what some of you are getting out of this, you missed my point. I'm only suggesting that we take a step back and maybe consider raising the future generations how we were raised and those before us. And I use the term "we" loosely as I'm still pretty young. I can't wait for my kids to be old enough to hunt! I feel sorry for the first spike we glass up! My oldest son tells me every day "Dad, I want to be a firefighter and a hunter." Should make any father happy. The hunter part that is. Who'd want their child to be a firefighter?? That was a joke, btw.. Yes, there is much more demand than there is supply in AZ. Which is even MORE of a reason to teach all sportsman (even grown ups and ESPECIALLY kids) the concept of "sorry, you're just gonna have to wait your turn (if you want THAT tag, once again)". I realize that its even difficult for many of them to accept it but hey, life not being "fair" goes both ways in this. Like implied in my post, I totally agree that if you read and understand the current system, one CAN go hunting every year. I'll never support a system that requires one to sit on the sidelines for a couple of years before they can hunt again. AZ has lots of opportunities that many other states don't. And chances at trophy class animals more so than many other states to boot! I love this state because of that. I drew a late November wt tag this year. Would I rather have a December tag? Of course. But I've got a dang good chance of finding a buck just as good during this hunt so I'll take it as opposed to waiting. One more thing. A waiting period would also do away with those who seek out "BP buddies" year after year. It's no secret that there are hunters out there who go as far as applying with total strangers because the others might have "max BP's" or close to it. In turn, they'll do all of the scouting or at least "guide" their newly acquired "friend" during the hunt. Maybe the "bp buddy" is "guided" to a giant and he shoots it. He got a great deal out of it, right? I say yes. Call it whining, or "life is not fair", or whatever. Just saying it rubs me the wrong way that the "guide" drew his 10th premium bull tag in 12 yrs. Maybe I'm bitter that I don't have any "BP buddies"?? Ha! The best one is those who can afford to apply their entire family members, even if they don't hunt. Then use them as their "BP buddy" during application time. Don't hate the player, hate the game, right? Yes, I agree. Once again, I don't blame anyone who can take advantage of the current system. And I don't hate the wealthy because they can afford to take advantage of it. But let's face it, those who fall into those categories are the ones who are "hardcore" enough that an application for at least a BP is gonna be sent in, year after year anyway. I realized after re-reading this that it probably should be an entirely new thread. Sorry, just had some thoughts and kept writing... I apologize for being so long winded. It's way past my bedtime.....

This is John Patterson while hunting with TLO. Here's a quick sneak peak of the hunt and soon you'll be able to see the entire hunt as it's put together. As a side note, John's son (Jeffery) took a great ram with Timberland Outfitters as well that SAME YEAR! Pictures and video will follow. Wait, the luck doesn't end there. John and his other son (Kyle) drew BUFFALO tags the following year! Wait until you see the bulls they took (especially Kyle's GIANT!). Enjoy!

Coues deer are GENERALLY in higher elevations. MD are TYPICALLY in lower elevations. I'm guessing you know this already. Are there exceptions? Sure. And let's assume that we're talking about from the Rim, South (where MOST of the Coues deer are located). If I've ever called them carp, it was never to imply they're stupid and easier to hunt. In fact, I don't know if I've ever used the term unless I was quoting someone else. I have a few friends in Northern AZ who like to take jabs at me because I like to chase "the little rabbit deer". You know, the deer "where you only get 30lbs of meat off of them"? I laugh. It doesn't bother me. The irony behind "the meat" comment is that many of them would pass up a 170 class buck to shoot a 180 buck. Why? Well, because of ALL of the extra meat you'll get, of course!!! ;) I'll probably hunt the easy, corn-fed, rabbit deer as long as I can. Then I'll move on to the road-huntable, dumb, carp deer to get my fix. But what am I going to do with all of that red meat when I'm that old (insert sarcasm)??

Maybe this was mentioned already because I didn't have time to read all of the responses. They're "bottom feeders" like carp. Coues are typically in higher mountains while MD are down in the "bottom". That's the way I understand it. As far as which one is easier to kill? Neither and both, IMO.... Too many variables.

So to answer your question, they rarely check BOTH. In my experience.

One time in the field, a couple times on a tagged deer. But all of the times I was WITH someone who was checked, I've NEVER seen them check a license to cross reference the tagholder. Odd to me. The only time my license was ever checked was at a deer check in station on the kaibab. I wasn't hunting. It was my dads deer. He asked me for my tag and license. I said i wast hunting, just helping my dad. He asked again. I looked at the g and f employee like "huh???". I mentioned I wasn't hunting, AGAIN, and went to walk away. He stopped and asked for my license once again. I repeated that I wasnt hunting and just helping my dad. He demanded my license. Whatever......

Congratulations on the sheep tag! Casey and Chris, I wish you two redheads would just throw down and get it over with.........

7E can be a lot of fun. But the majority of people will get their tail kicked. Contact Lance. He knows it better than most and he's a sponsor on the site. Good luck to your buddy.... Lance 928-607-9380

Try finding areas not so thick. For example, broken cedars/juniper country or canyon's. At least where you can glass better. Are you sure those bulls will be there in late November? Or at least the majority of them? Good luck

Congrats again, Daryl! Stud buck AND fantastic mount...

:blink: :blink: Probably the HAM hunt. I hoped so. But that wasn't why I "blinked"... Either way, glad the pig was "finished off".. :)

:blink: :blink:

Enjoy.....

I've been having too much fun going through Lances videos. The wife just stares at me with "the look" as I smile at the screen. I'd better take a little break. haha! So it might be a few more days until another one is up. But I hope you guys enjoy this one too!!

Awesome! Just wish my legs agreed

You're pulling a trailer on North bound I-17 thru phx. Lots of other stickers on your truck as well. It's 5pm and I'm behind you in the white Tacoma with a quad in the back. Move over so I can go buffalo hunting. : )

Sweet pictures! I wonder if that last one is an antlered cow....

Pretty sure it said they were "pursuing" illegals. Doubt they were sleeping on the tracks in hopes of the vibration to wake them up. We've all got an imagination so we can use it in regards to a couple of agents being killed after a collision with a train during a pursuit in the early morning hours. But let's first give these guys the benefit of the doubt that they're bright enough NOT to sleep on some train tracks in their SUV. I'm sure there are several on here more familiar with this area than myself but if I remember correctly, there's quite a few R/R crossings around and many aren't lighted OR well marked. Sorry, I just get a little annoyed with assumptions when such little information is given out to the public. I see it all the time in my profession where citizens say "what were they thinking? what were they doing? are they stupid?". Usually there's a conscious decision made where even someone is injured or even killed in the process. That's why they're called accidents.