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Everything posted by billrquimby
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What gas mileage does it get? Bill Quimby
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I spoke with the publisher at the SCI convention in Reno in January, and he said he would get back to me later. Later hasn't come yet. Will post it here as soon as I hear. Safari Press is the largest publisher of high-end hunting/shooting books in the world now. The publisher, Ludo Wurfbain, also owns Sports Afield magazine. Bill Quimby
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A ban on baiting all types of wildlife is not the only rule change the Game and Fish Commission will be considering. Below is from the AGFD website: Bill Quimby The Commission proposes creating a new rule, R12-4-314, to address pick-up and possession of wildlife parts. There has been some misunderstanding regarding when individuals may collect wildlife parts. Outdoor activities provide a multitude of wildlife experiences, including the discovery of wildlife parts such as skulls, bones, or shed antlers. Current rule does not adequately address the legality of picking up fresh wildlife parts. Under current rule in R12-4-305, an individual must demonstrate evidence of legality, such as identifiable parts and an applicable license or tag, to possess or transport wildlife parts. Recently, the Commission had to address the situation where people were picking up the remains of deceased wildlife. According to the letter of the law, possession of wildlife parts is only allowable if there is some evidence of legality, such as a permit, tag or special license. There is no exception for an individual who, for example, would like to keep the antlers of a deer or elk that died from causes other than unlawful activity. The Department intends to add this new rule to address this specific situation. The Department believes that a separate “picking up and possessing” rule is necessary t o maximize understanding of what to do in this situation. The Department additionally recognizes the role that wildlife parts play in fostering interest and future participation in outdoor activities and would like to be more permissive in allowing this with the appropriate oversight that the new rule provides. (The proposed rule follows) R12-4-314. Pickup and Possessi on of Wildlife Parts A. For the purposes of this Section, the following definitions apply: 1. “Fresh” means the majority of a carcass or wildlife part that is not exposed dry bone and is comprised mainly of hair, hide, or flesh. 2. “Not fresh” means the majority of the carcass or wildlife part is exposed dry bone due to natural processes such as scavenging, decomposition, or weathering. B. If not in conflict with federal law, and notwithstanding any provision in Section R12?4?305 to the contrary, no license, permit, tag or stamp are required to pick up and possess naturally shed antlers and horns or parts of a wildlife carcass that are not fresh. C. If not contrary to federal law or regulation, an individual may only pick up and possess a fresh wildlife carcass or its parts under this Section if the individual notifies the Department and: 1. The wildlife carcass or its parts show no evidence of death or wounding from any device used to take wildlife; 2. The Department’s first report or knowledge of the carcass or its parts is voluntarily provided by the individual wanting to possess the carcass or its parts; 3. A Department law enforcement officer is able to observe the entire carcass and its parts at the site where the animal died in the same condition and location as when the animal was originally found by the individual wanting to possess the carcass or its parts; and 4. A Department law enforcement officer, using the officer’s education, training, and experience, finds no indication that the animal may have been taken unlawfully. The Department may require the finder to take the officer to the site where the animal carcass or parts were found if an adequate description or location cannot be provided to the officer. 5. The Department has no duty to confirm legality in the event of non-availability of a Department officer. D. If a Department law enforcement officer determines that the individual wanting to possess the carcass or its parts is authorized to do so under subsection ©, the officer shall issue a permit authorizing possession of the carcass or its parts. The permit shall contain: 1. A general description of the carcass or its parts; 2. The date of inspection; 3. Species of the wildlife carcass; 4. If applicable, horn or antler length and width, and points per side; and 5. A statement that the permit must remain with the carcass or its parts. E. The Migratory Bird Treaty Act regulates the pick-up and possession of migratory birds and their parts. The provisions of this Article and regulations promulgated under the Act apply to a person in possession of birds, feathers, other parts, eggs, and nests. F. Wildlife parts picked up and possessed from areas under control of jurisdictions that prohibit such activity are illegal to possess in this state.
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Although never abundant, jaguars have been recorded in Arizona as long as people have been interested in wildlife, which is forever. They have been trapped as far north as Grand Canyon and the Navajo Reservation by government trappers. Several were killed on the White Mountain Apache Reservation by sport hunters, and at least one was taken near Big Lake. A distant relative of my wife shot the last jaguar taken legally in Arizona. He was hunting near Patagonia in about 1969 and shot it as it was stalking a herd of javelinas. I photographed him with it, but have since lost the photo. He donated the skull and skin to the UA's wildlife collection. The university still had the skull as recently as about 1995, when I saw it there. At least two more jaguars were killed in southern Arizona after legal hunting ended -- one near Nogales, the other in the Dos Cabezas. Although both were killed illegally, in both instances the charges against the young men who shot them were dismissed by judges. It's doubtful the public would allow that to happen today. Sometime in the late 1950s, early 1960s, an outlaw houndsman was convicted of conducting canned hunts with bears, and mountain lions. Two of his clients had shot jaguars near Pena Blanca Lake, but it was never proved that he had released them. The AZGFD wildlife manager who got the goods on the houndsman was Bob Hernbrode Sr., father of game commissioner Bob Hernbrode Jr. Bill Quimby
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What about a New Topic?
billrquimby replied to gonhntn's topic in Small Game, Upland Bird, and Waterfowl Hunting
<<<<<Swatting flies? Perhaps someone has never been chukar hunting..>>>> Wrong. I accompanied a couple of friends to look for those things on the North Rim more than 30 years ago. Shot two, and spent the rest of the trip looking at deer. It isn't that I haven't killed more than my share of birds. I grew up in Yuma when it was the dove hunting capital of the world, and I've probably shot enough of those flying lice to fill a pickup truck. Ditto with geese and ducks on the lower Colorado River when there still was a river there, Gambel's quail in the Willow Springs Country in its heyday, Mearn's quail in the Santa Ritas, and sagehens in Wyoming. Wing shooting simply isn't fun for me any more. I get more fun shooting skeet and trap. Far be it for me to knock you young guys who still enjoy swatting little birdies even though, in my biased opinion, the only featured creature worth hunting is a gobbler in the spring. Bill Quimby -
Proposed change to Wild horse and burro act
billrquimby replied to cmc's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
To answer that question you need to look at where he gets his campaign funds. The real question is why do the people in his district keep re-electing him? Bill Quimby -
What about a New Topic?
billrquimby replied to gonhntn's topic in Small Game, Upland Bird, and Waterfowl Hunting
Shooting birds is like swatting flies. Bill Quimby -
I cannot believe what I've gone and done!!!!
billrquimby replied to Kilimanjaro's topic in Rifle hunting for Coues Deer
Good luck on your safari. You will love Zimbabwe. A word to the wise, though. Before you leave, be sure to check with the U.S. State Department to make certain that your safari company and the area is not on our banned lists. Our sanctions against the Mugabwe regime include making it against federal law for an American to travel to Zimbabwe and hunt with certain companies in certain areas, and the penalties are considerable. Bill Quimby -
Boy's first big game rifle, suggestions?
billrquimby replied to lfootmatt's topic in Rifle hunting for Coues Deer
Why saddle the little guy with just one rifle for a lifetime of hunting? Get him that 7mm/08 or a .243 now, add a .270 or a .25-06 to his battery in a couple of years, and a .338 a few years after that. When he's all grown up, he'll buy his own 7 mm Rem Mag and .416 Remington and be equipped to hunt anything in the world. Bill Quimby -
Stories of Your First Coues Hunts
billrquimby replied to Red Rabbit's topic in Miscellaneous Items related to Coues Deer
These are the opening paragraphs for chapter four of my book,"Sixty Years A Hunter," which the publisher is now advertising as "available Fall 1999." -- Bill Quimby Arizona Whitetails Are Special ONE OF THE first things I did when I left Yuma in August 1954 to attend the University of Arizona was to call Jean Potts, who now was living in Tucson. I'd dated her a couple of times even though we attended high school in separate cities, and I even rode the train to Tucson on my father's pass to escort her to her senior prom. We were married eighteen months later and were living with her grandmother at her family's home at Park Avenue and East Fort Lowell Road while we both attended the university. Jean's parents had given her and her twin sister a Jeepster convertible while they were in high school, but I knew better than to take it hunting, so I left home on foot at 4 AM on the third Friday of October 1956, the opening of Arizona's annual deer hunting season, with my lever-action .303 Savage and a steel U.S. Army canteen filled with water. Tucson was much smaller than it is now and Campbell Avenue was one of the few roads that cut into the foothills north of River Road. Dogs barked at me as I walked in the dark past the last of the houses but I apparently awoke no one. This was quite a hike I undertook, perhaps seven or eight miles just to reach the Santa Catalina Mountains where I'd been told I could find Coues white-tailed deer. Although I walked through what then was prime mule deer country I saw nothing other than several large coveys of Gambel's quail and cottontail rabbits. The sun already was well up when I reached the Coronado National Forest boundary fence, just above where a house now sits at the end of Ponatoc Road. As I approached the barbed wire fence I suddenly heard rocks rolling ahead of me. I climbed the fence and ran to where I could look down into the canyon. Standing perhaps seventy-five yards below me, looking back to see what had startled it, was the first white-tailed deer of any kind that I had ever seen. It had a small rack but it was a buck. Before it could turn and run off I brought my rifle up, placed the top of the post in my 2.5X Weaver scope on its shoulder ... and yanked the stiff trigger. The deer whirled and ran a few yards downhill before collapsing. My first thought when I reached my first Coues whitetail was that it had a mouse-like face. (I've felt the same about every Coues deer I've shot.) It was a beautiful animal, with the wide skull, short nose and large ears that set this subspecies apart from other whitetails. Its coat seemed to be a lighter gray, almost silver, with more white on its underparts than the four or five mule deer I'd taken up to then. As I expected it would be, its tail was longer and broader than a mule deer's, and its neck was swollen in pre-rut. What I hadn't expected to see was the auburn color on top of its tail and on the top of its head. The deer weighed perhaps ninety pounds on the hoof and its small antlers had three points and an eyeguard on each side, which is typical for a mature whitetail buck in Arizona. I gutted the deer and tried carrying it but I didn't go far before I realized there was no way I was going to pack that animal all the way to where we lived. Even if I could have, that deer and I would have created quite a sight when I reached civilization. I hid the carcass and my rifle near a two-track Jeep trail and started off the mountain. It seemed to take forever to finally get home. One of Jean's cousins and I returned in his car to retrieve the buck that afternoon. This was a half century ago, and we didn't call them “Coues deer” then. They were “desert whitetails,” “Arizona whitetails,” or just “whitetails.” We can blame Jack O'Connor, a former Tucsonan who was Outdoor Life magazine's gun editor in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, for all the hoopla that surrounds these deer now. He romanticized them in his articles and books, calling them “gray ghosts” and declaring them one of North America's top trophies, second only to his beloved wild sheep, of course. (According to O'Connor, nothing came close to sheep hunting.) We also can blame the Boone and Crockett Club for establishing a separate category for Odocoileus virginianus couesi in its record books. When the club's first books were published some scientists believed our little deer were a distinct species. Later, after it was decided they are only one of thirty-eight races of white-tailed deer, the category remained -
Shucks, I thought you said it was an OLD Winchester. Bill Quimby
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The hunts are over
billrquimby replied to rimhunter's topic in Small Game, Upland Bird, and Waterfowl Hunting
Who says the hunts are over? My javelina hunt starts February 6, followed May 1 by my turkey hunt. Bill Quimby -
My 7 mm Remington Magnum has taken everything from big red deer, wildebeest, waterbuck, elk, eland and moose all the way down to critters as small as 10-pound grysbok with no problem. So will the .243, .257, .260, .270, and dozens of others. Caliber, velocity and bullet weight are not as important as proper bullets and proper bullet placement. Pick something you shoot well, and stay with it. The largest elk in Arizona can be killed in its tracks with a .22-250. Incidentally, I don't know anyone -- even the best shooters I know -- who can be absolutely certain of proper bullet placement under field conditions at distances over 300 yards. Bill Quimby
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Kirt Darner sentenced (barely)
billrquimby replied to Hooked_on_Coues's topic in Coues Deer Hunting in New Mexico
My only experience with the guy was in 1984, when I bought an article from him for Safari Magazine. I had already sent the issue with his story to the printer when I picked up another magazine and found the same story, word-for-word. Luckily, I was able to stop it from going on the press. Replacing it with another article made me late in getting my magazine to the post office. My bosses, advertisers and readers weren't happy, and neither was I. Multiple sales of the same article are a definite no-no for outdoor writers. After calling Darner to tell him why I was returning his story and photos, I never again spoke with him. All of his mail went into File 13 without opening. Bill Quimby -
Layoff's have begun!
billrquimby replied to Birddog's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
I retired ten years ago in March, so I can't be laid off, but it doesn't mean we retirees aren't affected. My supposedly "conservative" 401K funds shrunk 65% during 2008. Meanwhile the IRS required that I withdraw a percentage (and pay the taxes) based on the funds in my account at the end of 2007. Although my income is fixed, the cost of utilities, insurance, food, and everything else rose 3% to 10% during 2008. I was scheduled to help two very wealthy international big game hunters write their memoirs in 2008 and both backed out, saying they couldn't afford my paltry fee until their businesses recovered. If guys who were hunting elephants, bongo, mountain nyala, Marco Polo sheep and markhor in the same year are having money trouble, you know things are bad! Bill Quimby -
Anyone going to Reno for the SCI convention ???
billrquimby replied to Extreme Coues's topic in Miscellaneous Items related to Coues Deer
I'm flying to Reno on Monday for Tuesday's Weatherby banquet and the custom gunsmith and knifebuilder shows. At the SCI convention from 9 to 11 am on Thursday, I'll be the moderator for the "Your First African Safari" seminar for the 21st consecutive year. Panelists this year are Jack Atcheson Sr. (speaking on caring for, shipping and mounting your African trophies), Craig Boddington (guns and ammo for Africa), Ludo Wurfbain (Safari Press/Sports Afield, what to read before your safari, while there and after you return from Africa), Johan Calitz (what to expect from your African outfitter/PH and what they expect from you), and Tommy Morrison (how booking agents will save you time, money and trouble). These five men are at the pinnacle of their professions and their advice is invaluable. The seminar is SCI's longest running and most popular, with 300 or more people attending every year. Nearly all of them will be making their first trip to Africa this year or next. We also get a handful of people who return year after year and say they learn something new each time. Stop by and say hello, even if you have no plans of hunting in Africa soon. Bill Quimby -
I figured it out...
billrquimby replied to Coues Sniper's topic in Rifles, Reloading and Gunsmithing
Bill, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Hadn't thought about it, but that rifle is kinda like Barbra Streisand. She needs a nose job, but she's smart enough to not risk what surgery might do to her voice. A clean barrel could affect my perfectly good rifle's performance. Bill Quimby -
I figured it out...
billrquimby replied to Coues Sniper's topic in Rifles, Reloading and Gunsmithing
Hi Kevin: I've only fired 175-grain Nosler Partitions through that barrel, except for perhaps 20-30 rounds of 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, which I loaded especially for my desert sheep hunt. After that, I zeroed it again for 175-grain Partitions. This thread has made me feel guilty. I suppose it's time to buy a cleaning rod and some supplies and clean the darned thing. Bill Quimby -
I figured it out...
billrquimby replied to Coues Sniper's topic in Rifles, Reloading and Gunsmithing
Bill, I have read many of your posts and greatly respect your opinion, but I disagree with you on this one. When I was cleaning the rifle I was very careful to never leave "goop" in the barrel after my "excessive" ( ) cleaning, and MANY smiths and shooters that I have tried to glean as much info as I possibly can from about shooting have told me that a fouled barrel will do EXACTLY what happened to me. And after all, the gun shot like crap, we cleaned it properly, and it then shot just like it did when I first got it. What else could it possibly have been? I have friends that have stories like the one you described with your 7mm, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Just another small point - I shoot out of the back of my truck when I shoot long range. I lay in the back of the truck with the gun on a bipod on the tailgate. The gun is also braked. There is a LARGE (16"diameter) area stained with residue from the powder escaping from the brake. This is just from the 30 or so rounds put thru her trying to figure out what was happening. (I do clean the truck every once in a while as well ) If you run your finger over it, the tip of your finger turns black and you can feel the residue if you rub your finger tips together. Obviously, this very same residue is building up in the barrel as well if not removed. How could this residue (not to mention copper build up in the rifling) not affect bullet flight??? The conditions would not be consistent, therefore it would seem to reason bullet flight wouldn't be either. Also, how old is your 7mm? Thanks Kevin Hi Kevin: It's been a part of me for so long that it's hard to remember exactly how old that rifle is. As best I can figure, it's 33 to 35 years old. I may have been a tad conservative in saying it had killed 50 animals. Most of my out-of-state and overseas hunting took place from 1983 to 1999, and that rifle went all over the USA, plus to Canada, Mongolia, Spain and five countries in Africa, where it took up to a dozen animals per trip down there. It looks like it's been through both World Wars and a couple of John Wayne movies, but it continues to do whatever it is asked to do. My only experience in hunting with a muzzle brake was with the .416 Weatherby Magnum the Weatherby company loaned me for the lion that appears with my posts so I don't know much about them. It could be your brake had something to do with those way-off-target misses you had. Or it could be barrel bedding or loose action screws ... or something else. My experience with my 7 Mag and other rifles tells me that a barrel fouled from only a dozen or so shots does not cause a rifle to suddenly shoot 14 inches off point of aim and as erratically as you described. We used to compete in 20-round and 40-round metalica silueta matches in northern Sonora in the late 1960s. Shooters were not allowed to touch their rifles except to shoot. Consequently, nobody cleaned their bores between shots, even though we were shooting offhand at targets 200 to 500 meters away. With pre-match practice shots, we typically fired 30 to 50 rounds every day we competed. If barrel fouling affected accuracy as much as you described, the 500-meter borregos would have been impossible to hit. The only time I've ever seen a rifle suddenly go haywire as yours did was when my .270's barrel gave out after firing maybe 2,000 rounds in those matches. In the course of perhaps 75-100 rounds, it suddenly went from shooting 0.75- to 1.5-inch groups to shooting all over the place. The gunsmith who replaced that barrel sawed its chamber open and showed me how the first two or three inches in front of the throat had been burned away. Incidentally, SCI founder C.J. McElroy used only two "smallbore" rifles -- a .300 Weatherby Magnum and a 7 mm Remington Magnum -- to take more than 325 record-book animals on six continents during his long hunting career. (He used a .458 Winchester Magnum for elephants, rhinos and tigers.) He also never cleaned the bores of his rifles. The only time I saw him shoot was in Zambia, when he borrowed my 7 Mag and hit a running defassa waterbuck three out of five shots at more than 250 yards. He celebrated his 81st birthday on that hunt, and that waterbuck was the last animal he killed before he died a few years later. Bill Quimby -
Wolf Program Faces Challenge: 7 Animal Deaths In '08 Under Investigation By Rene Romo LAS CRUCES, Jan 04, 2009 (Albuquerque Journal - McClatchy-Tribune Information Services via COMTEX) -- It was another challenging year for the restoration of endangered Mexican gray wolves. Whatever the outcome of ongoing investigations, 2008 will end up being one of the worst in the nearly 11-year history of the Mexican gray wolf reintroduction program in terms of suspicious killings. Seven wolf deaths in 2008 are under investigation by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and at least four of the wolves are known to have been shot to death, according to the federal agency. Two of the wolves that were shot, and a third whose death is still being investigated, were members of wolf pairs that could have bred in the wild -- a key intention of the endangered species restoration efforts. The Blue Range Wolf Recovery Area straddles the mountainous border between southeast Arizona and southwest New Mexico. Between 1998 and 2007, when wolves were first released into the area, a total of 24 wolves have been shot illegally. The worst year so far for wolf poaching cases was 2003, when seven wolves were shot. Four wolves were shot in 1998 and another four were shot in 2001. Only one poaching case has been successfully prosecuted. Another case was ruled a self-defense. "It is alarming," said Michael Robinson of the Center for Biological Diversity in Pinos Altos. "Clearly, this is a high number this year, and it is very disturbing. ... We find each one of these deaths heartbreaking. It is one of the factors that has so far kept the numbers (of wolves) suppressed, the other big factor being federal predator control." Environmentalists say a federal policy of removing from the wild any wolves that have killed livestock three times in a one-year period has undermined the growth of the wild wolf population. The Fish and Wildlife Service's annual census of Mexican gray wolves in the wild is to be released in February. At the end of 2007 there were 52 Mexican gray wolves in the wild -- a disappointing number for wolf advocates, who noted that a 1996 environmental impact statement projected there would be about 100 wolves roaming Southwest forests by the end of 2006. Meanwhile, critics of the program -- including ranchers who have lost livestock to the wolves -- say there are more wolves in the wild than the official census. Illegally killing a Mexican wolf, a violation of the federal Endangered Species Act, is punishable by criminal penalties of up to $50,000 and a year in jail, or a civil penalty of up to $25,000. John Oakleaf, the Mexican gray wolf field projects coordinator for the Fish and Wildlife Service, said the long-term impact of the wolf killings will not be known until biologists determine whether surviving members of pairs mate with other wolves. But, despite the number of suspicious deaths, Oakleaf said the overall survival rate of radio-collared wolves was higher than normal in 2008. "Every time a wolf goes down it hurts," Oakleaf said, "but I try to focus on the overall population." Oakleaf said humans will continue to kill wolves when their paths cross, but he said poaching will not derail the Mexican gray wolf reintroduction program. "Certainly those types of actions aren't going to win," Oakleaf said. "While they are setbacks, obviously we can be aggressive in terms of releases and translocations to replace those animals." Altogether in 2008, 13 wolves died in the recovery area, including two wolves that were accidentally struck by cars and four cases in which the cause of death could not be determined. A fourteenth wolf, the Elk Mountain pack alpha male whose mate was found shot to death in late April, has not been seen or detected by radio collar since July. Recovery program biologists stopped mentioning the alpha male in monthly reports over the summer, but Oakleaf said he has not reached any conclusions about the wolf's fate. The Fish and Wildlife Service has offered a reward of up to $10,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone who has illegally shot a wolf. Copyright © 2009, Albuquerque Journal, N.M.
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How bad is the wear and tear? Can you post a couple of photos? Bill Quimby
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Richardson Attacked for hunting
billrquimby replied to jamaro's topic in Coues Deer Hunting in New Mexico
A governor who had hunted gemsbok in southern Africa felt they would do well in New Mexico, and pressured the game and fish department to stock them for hunters. Ditto for audad and ibex. Bill Quimby -
Richardson Attacked for hunting
billrquimby replied to jamaro's topic in Coues Deer Hunting in New Mexico
Whoever wrote that was guilty of spreading fables because it was never true. The Kalahari Desert covers more than 362,000 square miles of mostly unihabited arid terrain of three countries, and gemsbok oryx are in virtuallly every suitable niche across it. The White Sands are only 275 square miles in size, according to Wikipedia. Don't know if this includes only the national monument, but it doesn't matter. New Mexico's gemsbok habitat is limited. The entire state of New Mexico, which has a lot more people and where introduced gemsbok oryx are found in only a few places, is just 161,665 square miles. Bill Quimby -
<<<<< I recall a few years back one of the major outdoor magazines reprinted a story by Zane Grey recounting his Mexican hunting adventure in which he and a partner were treed by a savage band of peccaries that snapped their deadly canine teeth and wouldn't leave until a clever guide set fire to the forest, thus driving away the beasts with the smoke.>>>> Are you sure this wasn't Russell Annabel? He and Elgin Gates were notorious for adding thrills to their stories during the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. Annabel wrote a bit about his time in Mexico, and Gates usually travelled to more exotic places. Zane Grey did write a series of articles based in Mexico called "Down An Unknown Jungle River" for Field and Stream in the 1930s, and that could have been where you read about that overimaginative incident. From what I remember of Grey's other articles and novels, though, he highly romanticized the characters in his western novels but pretty much told it straight when it came to hunting and fishing. At my age I seem to remember only what I want, though. Bill Quimby
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I figured it out...
billrquimby replied to Coues Sniper's topic in Rifles, Reloading and Gunsmithing
Hate to say it, but a bore fouled only with residue powder and copper would not result in the wild misses you described. It was the goop you left in the bore after excessively (obsesssively? ) cleaning it. Modern non-corrosive primers and smokeless powder do not require that you clean a bore after every few shots. My favorite rifle is a 7 mm Rem Mag on a Mauser action that I stocked myself. I've probably fired 300-400 rounds through it, developing loads, checking zero and taking at least 50 animals with it in North America, Africa and Asia. I have never once run a patch through that rifle and I still can shoot 1-inch groups with it. I'm happy with any rifle I own if it will give me minute of animal in the field under hunting conditions. Bill Quimby