billrquimby

Desert Bull: I think we'd probably find zero support for Jackson's side from anyone who lives in a western state with lots of public land; however, we are vastly outnumbered by hunters in states that do not. I've not seen any figures but I suspect there are a lot more than 5% of America's 14 million hunters who cross state lines to hunt. I do know if I lived in Louisiana, as Jackson does, or in Texas, Florida, Ohio, Virginia and lots of other states I would fly West and North every year rather than pay what it costs to lease a place to hunt. Bill Quimby

I've known John Jackson for a long time, and I talked with him at the SCI convention in January about the court ruling. I tried very hard to get him to understand this was more than a resident/non-resident issue. I told him that if his side prevails it would, in MHO, take major wildlife management decisions away from states, and seasons and limits for big game would be set much like is done today with migratory game birds: The states would make decisions based on "frameworks" set by the feds. Also there would be a very good possibility that owners of vast parcels of land who could prove wildlife did not move off their private property would make a case that they be allowed to set seasons, limits, etc. My arguments fell on deaf ears.

Thanks. I've reached the age I envy youth and the physical ability that goes with it.

According to my books by Brown/Murray and Housholder, the last confirmed grizzly bear in Arizona was killed by a government trapper on Escudilla Peak in 1935. However, I also found on the internet a New Mexico Game and Fish Department reference citing AGFD as saying in 1996 that another grizzly bear was killed on Mount Baldy four years later. Take your pick. The Brown/Murray and Housholder books came out before 1996 so there may have been new evidence found. If anyone is interested in learning more about grizzly bears in the Southwest I recommend : ?The Last Grizzly and Other Southwestern Bear Stories? David E. Brown and John A. Murray, eds. University of Arizona Press 184 pp. / 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 / 1988 Cloth, $22.85 A collection of true stories about grizzly and black bears in the Greater Southwest?Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, southern California, Chihuahua, and Sonora?from the 1820s to the present. I also recommend you read Aldo Leopold?s ?Sand Country Almanac? for a sentimental essay on the Escudilla kill.

I still can't find my reference books to find the last grizzly kill site but the color phase of black bears in the Blue today would have no relevence. I have shot brown phase black bears on Doyle Peak above Flagstaff and on Mount Graham -- the only kill of a black-color black bear I've been in on was in the Blue east of Strayhorse. The big difference is that a grizzly bear is one species and a black bear is another. The offspring produced by breeding similar but separate species are virtually almost never ever fertile, such as what happens when horses and asses, mule deer and whitetails, red deer and sika deer, and black and brown (grizzly) bears are crossed. Sure, there have been a few exceptions, such as when a mule got pregnant and bore young, but those instances are so very rare they can be ignored.

Grizzly bears were gone from Yuma County long before 1914. The last griz in Arizona was killed either in the Blue or on Escudilla Peak. I don't remember which. I have books by David E. Brown and Bob Housholder that talk about these bears but I can't put my hands on them at the moment. I have more than 2,000 hunting-related books and it's hard to find one when I want it. Brown's book is very good. Housholder's was less so, if I remember.

Hi Brett. I guess I must be crazy if I try to get others to question things they've read or have been told. We spent about ten days on the hill but came down Sunday so I could undergo a medical procedure. We'll head back up as soon as I feel better. I did get out to check "my" elk herds three or four times while I was there. It's still too early to see antlers, of course, but I did see more animals this year than in the past couple of springs. I also drove up on a bear crossing the road at the cabins in North Woods, almost exactly the same place where I've seen two in the past. Look forward to seeing you in God's country. Did you draw a turkey permit? Bill

"i've seen a couple grizzly artifacts. actually saw a live wolf a few times. but show me a hide from one. ain't many around." I neglected to answer you on the above. I should have pointed out that there are photos of grizzly bears and wolves in Arizona, which is more than can be said about Merriam's elk. I repeat, though, I've only said there are people who doubt that this subspecies reached Arizona. When I still was a reporter I interviewed several of them, and there were not wide-eyed, irresponsible loonies. I'm still keeping an open mind. Bill

OK Lark. First off I don't think I've said there absolutely were no Merriam?s elk here, although I do suspect there were none. If they were here I believe it would be close to impossible to eliminate them. I think the only way to remove every elk would be to flood the state with cattle, which iswhat was done just after the turn of the century. However, there would be archeological records that elk were here in good numbers and, I believe, a heck of a lot more surviving antlers. 1900 is not that long ago in the scheme of things. Second, campfire legend is exactly what it could have been. One good ol? boy sees a big mule deer buck and says it was as big as an elk. His buddy tells someone else his friend saw an elk, and the next thing you hear is that the first guy killed an elk. This type of thing happens all the time. Just ask any defense attorney. Third, in the 1880s, when the type specimens allegedly were taken in Arizona there were naturalists -- professionals and amateurs -- running all over the place trying to gain immortality by identifying new species and subspecies. Anyone who could ?prove? that elk were in Arizona would impress his peers and perhaps make some money on the lecture circuit, which was a big thing before TV. The professionalism of the guy who shot those two bulls at the headwaters of the Black River is suspect. Fourth, although I?m not saying it is so, I don't rule out that the alleged Merriam?s elk antlers reportedly found in Arizona were brought into the state from elsewhere. All those I know about were big bulls, which lends credence to someone not wanting to leave his best trophy behind when he moved here. How was the shed owned your friend in Springerville/Eagar ?substantiated?? Were DNA tests done? You are correct about grizzly bears and wolves ?all over the place? in Arizona. There even were bears along the Colorado River within 50 miles of Yuma and in the river's delta in Mexico. You also are correct about elk not belonging in the desert. Our desert mule deer certainly don?t need more competition. Bill Quimby

The report of Merriam?s elk antlers taken in Round Valley is the first I?ve heard, and the Merriam?s elk is a subject I have followed closely since even before the nearly forty years I?ve had a place in Greer, which as you surely know is only a few miles from that valley. You can count the number of alleged Arizona Merriam?s antlers known to exist on two hands and have fingers left over. An alleged pickup hung for years at the old lodge at Buffalo Crossing and later at Hannagan Meadow; another was found on a cabin on Mount Lemmon; and two supposedly were collected near the headwaters of the Black River in 1886. These two were sent to the American Museum of Natural History. Another reportedly was found ?somewhere near Flagstaff.? Another set was reported to be from a bull shot at the ?mouth of the Little Colorado River.? Anyone who has ever stood where that muddy creek meets the big Colorado will burst out laughing at that report. I have and I did. If just one of the six known Arizona Merriam?s elk antlers that survived is obviously bogus isn?t it possible that the others might be, too ---- especially if the veracity of the guy who supposedly collected the two specimens on the Black River is debatable? Although I don?t think I ever met Ted Riggs I do know who he is. I personally knew many notable old timers, such as Lynn Cool, George Parker, Tom Knagge, and almost everyone honored in feature articles in the Arizona Wildlife Federation ?s last record book. (I even wrote one of those articles.) I am not as ignorant as about wildlife as someone in this thread implied. I?ve hunted and fished in every Arizona county (as well as all over this continent, and four others) and have taken every species of legal game animal and fish in this state over the past 68 years. My family, which included ranching people who lived in present elk country, has been in Arizona for a century. I have no idea whether or not there ever were Merriam?s elk in Arizona , but doesn?t it seem odd so very few antlers survive and that there is no substantial archaeological record of elk here? The Merriam?s elk in New Mexico, Texas, and northern Mexico were supposed to be larger than the Rocky Mountain elk brought here from Yellowstone, so it is possible that Merriam?s genes contributed to larger antlers in Arizona?s present elk herd if there were, in fact, ?pockets? of them surviving when the Wyoming elk were released. The question is "if." I will not comment about being called ?irresponsible.? Bill Quimby

Please excuse me for adding a bit of controversy to this thread. There are informed and reasonable people who believe elk never existed in Arizona before the Winslow Elk's Club shipped them on railroad cars from Yellowstone and released them here. The Arizona Merriam elk type specimens were collected by someone whose professional ethics were considered questionable at a time when any non-Indian who ventured into the White Mountains would not have survived for long, they say. A case can be made for their side. If the Merriam's subspecies was here in ancient times there would be lots and lots of elk bones and tools made from elk antlers in the archaeological digs all over our present elk range, and there are not. There also would be lots of elk in the pictographs and petroglyphs across Arizona's backcountry, and there are not. Further, there would many Arizona Merriam's elk antlers from the nineteenth century still around, and there are only a handful (fewer than six or seven) ... allegedly ... and one of those supposedly was found nailed on a cabin on Mount Lemmon, of all places. If elk did exist here, it is hard to believe that they were totally exterpated from our rugged and remote elk habitat by men with muzzleloading rifles. Pockets of living animals would have survived and contributed to the gene pool of today's Arizona elk, but only slightly. So many generations have passed it's doubtful that such a few drops of Merriam "blood" would result in bigger antlers. New Mexico and Chihuahua did have Merriam's elk, but they typically do not produce the huge antlers seen in Arizona today. Record antler size, in our case, could be due to nutrition. As for the Kaibab's elk, Game and Fish didn't stock them there. Bill Quimby

That little bull elk near Picacho Peak must be terribly lonely, but it's not the only Arizona elk to wander a long way from its buddies. About a dozen years ago, I think, a 6x6 bull was pulled out of a canal between Gila Bend and Buckeye. In the 1950s and 1960s, there were many reports of elk sightings near Douglas. No one believed them until a train killed five or six cow elk in 1969 or 70. There now also are elk on the Kaibab Plateau (they somehow crossed the Colorado River and Grand Canyon) as well as elk on Mount Graham. Neither group was stocked by Game and Fish. They simply showed up and stayed. I agree with .270. As much as I like to see and hunt elk, they don't belong in the desert. Bill Quimby

Bret: Back in the 1950s and early 1960s, Game and Fish was worried about a disease supposedly transmitted by deer to elk that caused elk to go blind. The publicity about elk blindness may have equalled the current flap about CWD. There were quite a few elk infected, we were told. Funny thing, deer numbers in our elk country declined over the years since then while elk numbers exploded. Go figure. Bill

Ernesto: I bought a Remington 600 Mohawk in .243 Winchester the first year they were introduced many years ago. I used it to take perhaps a dozen deer, eight or nine javelinas in Arizona and Texas and a couple of antelope with it in Wyoming before Remington announced a recall for exactly the same malfunction you described. Jensen's Custom Ammo in Tucson was a Remington authorized gun repair shop in those days and the gunsmith there did some work on my rifle and sent me on my way. Could be the original owner of your rifle didn't get the recall work done. It was advertised in just about every hunting and shooting magazine at the time. I never had any problem with that rifle, before or after having the recall work done. I retired it years ago and moved on to other calibers. Bill Quimby

My wife and I have had two vehicles stolen in past 10 years. Her car was taken from our carport in the middle of the night three years ago. The jerks who stole it left a Blazer behind that they'd stolen earlier that night. They then drove about two miles to an apartment complex where a security guard caught them trying to steal another car. They then rammed the guard's truck with her car, sped away at high speed and lost control and totalled it when they went airborne and landed on a four-foot-tall berm! They then stole another car a half mile away and got away. To my knowlege, they were never caught. My new 4x4 Silverado truck and my secretary's Jeep were stolen from my office parking lot two weeks before my long-awaited sheep hunt (it took 39 years to draw that tag) was scheduled to begin. Inside my truck were two Nikon camera bodies, three expensve lenses, a .357 S&W handgun, two walkie-talkies, an assortment of hand tools ... and my sheep tag! I received an awful lot of ribbing when I went to GFD for a duplicate. Twelve months after the truck was stolen I got a telephone call from the embassy in Hermosillo. My truck had been recovered in Sinaloa and was being brought back to the states. By then, the truck belonged to my insurance company. In both cases Farmers was outstanding and fair. (Ditto when we had a fire in our home in 2003.) But my troubles weren't over after losing that truck. Two days into the sheep hunt I was changing a flat tire when the high-lift jack slipped off the bumper and dropped the truck onto my left arm, leaving me with compound fractures of both long bones. We were an hour from pavement and an hour from a hospital in Phoenix. Fortunately, the doctor who treated me was a hunter and he installed two steel plates in the arm and rigged me up with a cast I could shoot from. I was back in camp 36 hours after the accident and shot my ram on the 12th day of the season. It completed my Arizona Big Ten.

How you make your trail cameras? I spend eight months a year at my cabin in Greer and sure would like to photograph a few of the elk that walk through my yard at night. Bill Quimby billrquimby@cs.com

.270: Whitetailed deer are found from southern Canada all the way to the middle of South America, including Columbia, Venezuela, Guayana, Surinam, French Guiana, Brazil, Equador, Peru, and two islands off Venezuela. There are 38 subspecies (with eight of them in South America). The largest whitetails are those in northeastern U.S. (and southeastern Canada). Despite what you've heard about Florida's Key deer, the smallest whitetails are found in Central America. Some seldom weigh more than 40-45 pounds. Scientists recognize just nine subspecies of mule deer (including the Columbia black-tailed deer and the Sitka black-tailed deer). Their range extends from southwestern Canada to northern Mexico, including all of Baja California, plus northern Sonora, northwestern Coalhila, and northern Chihuaha. There are separate subspecies of mule deer on Mexico's Tiburon and Cedros islands. Incidentally, many Central American and South American whitetails share their habitat with a nifty little deer called the brocket. There are four separate species and several subspecies of brocket deer. All have only spikes. Depending upon the species, they can weigh as little as 30 pounds or as much as 70 pounds. I've taken five subspecies of whitetails and four subspecies of mule deer in the U.S. and Mexico, but have never hunted in South America nor have I had the opportunity to hunt a brocket deer. I'd like to do something about both of these shortcomings before I get too darned old. bill quimby

All: Please allow me to toss another thought into this thread: It is a fact that the farther south you go in North America, the later in the year the whitetail rut occurs.*** This is true until you approach the Equator, where whitetails with hard antlers can be found in every month, and there is no set month for the rut. In South America, where our spring is their fall, the opposite is true. The farther north you go in South America, the less the rut is confined to a specific season. The farther south you go, the earlier in the calendar year the rut occurs. Also, when North American whitetails and elk, as well European red deer, were released in the Southern Hemisphere, they instantly adjusted their rut to the "upside down" seasons. Red deer, elk and whitetails in New Zealand, for example, now rut in April and May. Incidentally, some of you may be interested in knowing that there are more subspecies (O.v. couesi is just of more than two dozen races) of whitetails in Central and South America than in North America. bill quimby *** It also is true that whitetails are larger and heavier the farther north you go in North America, and the farther south you go in South America.

Couesaddict: Thanks for the offer to pack out my next whitetail. It would be great if you could do that, and even greater if there were a next one for me. I shot my last whitetail above Arivaipa Canyon perhaps 8-10 years ago. It was bedded on a peak about 75 yards from where a very good desert ram was taking turns feeding and bedding as I stalked my buck. I approached the deer from above and shot it when it jumped up. The ram watched me as I gutted the deer, then followed me all the way off the mountain to a spot where I could get to in my truck. It was still standing there when I drove off. It was a much better trophy than the only sheep I've ever taken (which wasn't a small one, either). So much for the wily desert bighorn! At any rate, I got that deer out by cutting it in half and relaying it. I'd carry a half a couple hundred yards, then go back and get the other half. It took twice as long, but was easier by a half because I could rest when walking back for the half I'd left behind. I'm long past the time when I can carry out a whole Arizona whitetail in one trip as I used to do. When I still could, I'd cut a buck's front knees leaving the lower legs attached by hide and tendons, then slide the front legs through the gambrels, and carry the deer out like a backpack with its head down. I could go a long way without stopping to rest when I was younger, skinnier and a whole lot dumber. Today, if I were to hunt whitetails again, I would bone my deer and carry out only its meat and antlers. I've already had one heart attack and don't need another. Bill Quimby

Hello Diamondbackaz. I've not seen Charleau Gap, Rice Peak, Oracle Ridge, Dan Saddle or upper Canyon del Oro since the fire, but I can imagine what it's like. Although it looks like a moonscape now, just wait three or four years and see what that fire does to the deer population. It will boom! I've seen it happen in the Chiricahuas, in Eagle Creek in Unit 27, in the Galliuros, and elsewhere. Fire brings new growth; new growth brings deer. Yes, Oracle Ridge and Samaniego Ridge used to be great lion-hunting areas, and I would guess they still are (or will be when the deer move back in). We used to see a few bears and turkeys there, too. The last deer tag I drew was two years ago, and I shot a forked-horn mule deer in the Dos Cabezas. About three years before that I drew a tag in the Santa Ritas and took a very good 4x4 mule deer on the Experimental Range. I am the world's unluckiest when it comes to drawing tags. It took 39 straight years of applying to draw a sheep tag. I draw elk tags only about once every ten years, and deer tags every second or third year. I haven't hunted Arizona whitetails for awhile, and don't know if I'm physically capable of climbing our peaks anymore. I'll be 68 in September, and I'm just not in shape. I have a heart problem, and a thyroid condition has loaded me with an extra 40 pounds of blubber. I'm pretty much limited to hunting mule deer, Wyoming antelope and elk around my cabin, when I can get the tags. At the rate I'm going downhill as I age, it won't be long before I'm limited to shooting from the backs of Toyotas in Zimbabwe and Botswana. bill quimby

Yes, I'm that Bill Quimby. Thanks for the comment about my leaving the Citizen. The last few years were pure heck for me, and I left as soon as I reached 59 1/2 in 1995, when I wouldn't be penalized for tapping my 401K. I didn't retire then, though. Beginning in 1983, I also was Safari Club International's publications director, responsible for publishing Safari magazine, Safari Times and Safari Times Africa, and the SCI record books. I did that until 1999, when I no longer had a "regular" job. I have written (and ghost written) eight books for/about Weatherby Award winners since then. The latest is on Prince Abdorreza Pahlavi of Iran, Jack O'Connor's hunting buddy. I spend Nov 1 to April 15 in Tucson; the rest of the year I'm at our cabin in Greer, counting elk and watching the trees grow. Bill

I've been hunting Coues deer off and on since 1948, and hearing someone say deer have changed since I started hunting them puts a smile on my face. The only things that have changed is 1) there are a heck of a lot more whitetails in some areas now than when I was younger, and 2) it's harder for me to get to them. Deer are no smarter now than then, and there are few places that had more deer then. I've taken perhaps 30-35 Arizona/desert whitetails (which is what what we used to call them) from just about every mountain range in southern Arizona, plus a couple from Unit 27 below the rim. About half of them were glassed up. A couple were taken from a mule I once had. A few were found by walking just below a ridgeline, and rolling rocks as I went. The remainder were taken on drives. We had someone drive us up to a high peak above our camp at dawn, then four or five of us would spread out and hunt down a long canyon. One guy would be on one ridge, another on the opposite ridge, the others stayed low. It was amazing how many bucks we could find in a single canyon that way! Although we couldn't be called trophy hunters, we did take a few nice bucks.