billrquimby

Coues7: Thanks for the response. We haven't had a major rain since I put the blocks out, so that may be the problem. You're right about elk being dingy. We had a spike bull peek inside our kitchen window when my wife was washing dishes one evening a couple of years back. We've never seen elk in full daylight in our yard, though, except for an injured 6x6 bull a game warden had to shoot last month. We do see mule deer at all times of day, and even have had them wander up to our back porch while we were barbecuing. I doubt if the problem is having the bait too close to the house, though. I have a photo of seven mule deer does and fawns standing exactly where I placed the blocks. Oh well. I'm hoping they find it before bad weather forces us off the mountain this winter. The blue jays and Abert squirrels are enjoying my offerings now. Bill Q

How long does it take deer to find your salt? I put a commercial deer block (molasses and corn and other good stuff) along with a brown milneral salt block about 30 feet from our bedroom window in Greer last month. Neither has been touched although we have seen deer in our driveway and within 40-50 yards of our so-called attractants. We've also had elk in the yard almost every night for the past couple weeks .... and all have rejected our offerings, too. Am I doing something wrong? We don't do around the side of the house where we put out blocks, so scent shouldn't be an issue. Our cabin is back in a canyon with very little traffic, and the Apache National Forest is on two sides of us. Bill Q

"I've seen deer in CA that had a mule deer tail with a thin black line down the tail. I've always considered them a cross between a mule deer and a blacktail deer. Have also seen pics of muleys from Texas with this thin black line. So who knows for sure. This buck has that line but it only goes a short ways down the tail. What ever he is I'd say he leans heavily towards the muley side and he is BIG" Mike: California has several subspecies of mule deer, including one known as the California mule deer. It lives outside the Columbia blacktail's range but it has a blacktail's wide, black tail. The tail on the buck in these photos is long and rope-like and looks like the bottom half was dipped in brown paint. It also does not have the markings of a mule deer. There is no dark forehead patch and its smallish ears are not marked like a mule deer's. That tail, though, definitely is not a whitetail's! Bill

Mike: Jim Hefflelfinger is more than an AGFD game specialist. He's becoming known around the world as an up-and-coming deer specialist. I have never met him but his name keeps popping up in the strangest places in my own research for a book I may write someday on the world's deer. I probably should take back what I said earlier about high elevation Asian mountain game being unavailable to mediocre hunters with deep pockets. I have heard too many horror stories of argali, ibex and white-lipped deer being hunted above 14,000 feet from helicopters. If you have the money and connections anything in hunting is possible, it seems. There is at least one international big game hunter who goes everywhere in his personal 737 and takes his own helicopter pilot with him. As for the mention someone made of the North American 27 in this thread, see my book "Royal Quest" about Prince Abdorreza of Iran. With help of the U.S. State Department and his friends Jack O'Connor, Elgin Gates and Herb Klein, Abdorreza spent two months in the late 1950s collecting North American trophies for himself and the Iranian National Museum. Armed with his custom.270, state and federal museum collecting permits and the best outfitters/guides his influential buddies could line up the Prince shot TWO EACH of our four sheep, plus TWO EACH of moose, caribou, grizzly and black bear, cougar, mule deer, Coues deer, white-tailed deer, javelina, pronghorn, bison, wild turkey, and I forget what else ... all within 60 DAYS! A good number of the animals he took are in B&C and Rowland Ward record books. Abdorreza's office and O'Connor spent God knows how much time setting up these hunts and HIH's complicated travel plans. I suspect if some high-level personage such as the King of Spain (who also is a hunter) wanted to duplicate or even surpass Abdorreza's feats it could be done today. Money and influence do count in big time big game hunting. Bill Q

I won't even guess ... it's a beautiful buck and no sane hunter would pass it up, but am I the only one to wonder just what it is? Its body shape and antler configeration (forget the abnormal forked rear tines) say "whitetail" to me. But that tail is something else. It's neither mule deer or whitetail. Could it be a hybrid? Bill Q

Amanda's right on, as usual. Although it's not scientific, I've noticed I see considerably more game of all types -- from deer to rabbits -- while driving at night on backroads during the dark of the moon. Bill Q

"What I'm saying is if a good hunter that can shoot straight, had the money, time off work, some good tips on where to hunt, he or she could take a deer slam. I didn't say they had to be record book heads or even close, any mature animal is a trophy." This in no way is meant to take anything away from Jay Gates' stellar accomplishments, but the statement above is absolutely correct. With $15,000 - $20,000 to pay to hunt with the best outfitters even a fat old man like me could collect a deer slam with respectable trophies in a couple of months. (Anyone interested advancing the money to help prove my point?) Unfortunately, after serving for years as editor of SCI's record books, I can honestly say that's probably true for most types of game animals except for the mountain game found above 14,000 or more feet in Asia. If you've got the bucks -- and the time -- there's an outfitter somewhere who will be happy to relieve you of your money and put you on the game you want no matter what it takes. Bill

Shiras, this is true. I have seen this debate by biologists for awhile now. Wonder what Dr. Valerius Geist view is on this subject? Bill Q., any take on this? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Valerius Geist in his "Deer of the World" follows those who believe the mule deer orginated from blending whitet-tailed deer and a form of early black-tailed deer eons ago. He and other scientists, I believe, classify the present species as mule deer and include the blacktail as a subspecies. I have no idea why. The magazine that listed eleven mule deer subspecies apparently was unaware that the buro and inyo mule deer are no longer considered valid subspecies by most experts. After three decades as an outdoor writer and 18 years as a magazine editor/publisher I can attest that you should not believe everything you read. The differences between the 30 whitetails is considerable for record-keeping purposes. Antlers on whitetails from Florida, for example, could never compete with those from Alberta. I think SCI is on the right track by lumping the 30 North American subspecies into seven or more regional categories. It gives whitetail hunters in more states a chance to "make the book." As for Jay Gates, I have never met him, but I do admire his hunting skills and devotion to deer hunting. I was under the impression that he owned a auto dealership and made paid appearances at sportsmen's shows. I could be wrong. I have a book in my collection that he wrote nearly 20 years ago. Bill Q

"A Grand Slam of North American deer probably should include four species of the smaller antlered game we call "deer." However, there actually are only two deer species of this size in North America and they are the whitetail (there are 30 subspecies in North America, including the Coues) and the mule deer (there are nine subspecies; two are blacktails, seven are mule deer). " I screwed up when I neglected to mention t the brocket deer in the paragraph above. There are four separate brocket species, and two are found in lower North America. These are pretty little creatures with slick coats and small spiked antlers. Bill

Nope, there are 40 species of deer worldwide and I've only scratched the surface after more than half a century of hunting them. Coues deer are Number One for me, and the reason is their habitat. As do all of you, I love to spot and stalk. As for my "exotics," none was taken behind wire on a Texax game ranch. Here's where my deer came from: NORTH AMERICA Whitetails 1948 to 2000: Northeastern-- Michigan; Northwestern -- Wyoming; Texas -- Texas; Carmen Mountain -- Texas; Coues -- Arizona. Alaska-Yukon moose 1990 -- Yukon. Rocky Mountain elk 1954 to 2003 -- Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado Caribou 1994 -- Northwest Territories. Desert Mule deer 1950 to 2004 -- Arizona, Mexico. Rocky Mountain mule deer 1948 to 1985 -- Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado. Columbia black-tailed deer about 1990 -- California. Axis deer 1975 -- Texas (mine was free-ranging in the Hill Country). ASIA Asian elk 1990 -- Mongolia. Siberian roe deer 1990 -- Mongolia. EUROPE Spanish red deer 1987 -- Spain. AUSTRALASIA European red deer 1988 -- New Zealand. Sika deer -- 1988 New Zealand. AFRICA Fallow deer 1985-- South Africa. SOUTH AMERICA Brocket deer 2005 -- Argentina. I've given some thought to applying the term "Grand Slam" to hunting. I believe it started with Arizona sheep guide/outdoor writer Bob Housholder when he formed the Grand Slam Club (for American wild sheep) in the 1950s. He was an athlete of sorts and "Grand Slam" is baseballese for filling the bases and hitting a home run --- four runs in all. Problem is, he considered his wild sheep Grand Slam to include Rocky Mountain, desert, Dall and Stone sheep, categorizing the four as separate "species" when there actually are only two -- the thinhorns and the bighorns. He ignored other subspecies, such as the California bighorn because they were not open to hunting then. A Grand Slam of North American deer probably should include four species of the smaller antlered game we call "deer." However, there actually are only two deer species of this size in North America and they are the whitetail (there are 30 subspecies in North America, including the Coues) and the mule deer (there are nine subspecies; two are blacktails, seven are mule deer). For a true North American deer slam a hunter probably would have to take four of the six species of deer found on our continent: whitetail mule deer elk moose caribou brocket deer Are we having fun yet? Bill

I leave on Friday for my Sitka Blacktail hunt. If you ever decide to go for it, look up Johnnie at Muskeg Excursions http://www.muskegexcursions.com/ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good luck on your hunt. I'm afraid a Sitka hunt is out of the question for me now. From all the things I've read and been told it is too physically demanding for this overweight 70-year-old cardiac cripple. Get a good one. Bill Quimby

Thank you, Mike. I'd enjoy it. Bill Quimby

I, too, need only a Sitka blacktail to collect all of the various types of North American deer that you are calling a "North American deer slam." Actually I'm nuts about all types of deer and have hunted them on six continents. I've taken five types of whitetails, Rocky Mountain and Asian elk, Alaska Yukon moose, caribou, desert and Rocky Mountain mule deer, Columbia black-tailed deer, Spanish red deer, European red deer, sika deer, fallow deer, axis deer, brocket deer and Siberian roe deer. Let the other guys spend their big bucks on beautiful but dumb ol' wild sheep. Even a retarded fallow deer is 100 times smarter than the smartest ram. Bill Quimby

Hey Bret: Don't knock something until you've tried it. I took a bear by glassing it up in a Chiricahua Mountain prickly pear patch; another came to a varmint call near Rose Peak above Clifton; and still another (the toughest hunt of all) was taken by chasing a hound pack on foot over one of the San Francisco Peaks at Flagstaff. All were fun ... until it was time to pack those greasy things out. Bill

What a diversity of occupations! I'm mostly retired now, but I do write a book or two every year. Nos. 9 and 10 since I retired will be introduced at the SCI convention in January. One is on the history of that club; the other is about the hunting of Hubert Thummler, a Weatherby Award winner from Mexico who has entries in every SCI record book category (more 250 different types/subspecies of animals from six continents). Before I retired in 1999 I was theTucson Citizen's outdoor editor from 1967 to 1995 and SCI's director of publications from 1983 to 1999. After returning from my first trip to South America last week I now can say I've also hunted on six continents. I've hunted Africa a bunch of times and taken the Arizona Big Ten, but my favorite hunting is for any type of deer. Arizona's whitetails are at the top of my list but at nearly 70 years old I've forced to realize I'm too old and fat to do what it takes to hunt them now. My last three or four Arizona deer have been mule deer. I enjoy this forum and envy you younger guys. Bill

Try any of the larger reloading manuals. I especially recommend the Hornady two-volume books. Bill

Just remembered another incident: It was about 1970, and I still had my mule when I was hunting whitetails near Stockton Pass north of Willcox. About 8 a.m. I heard someone shooting in the next canyon and an hour later while I was glassing I spotted a guy waving at me. When I rode over to him I learned he and his buddy had shot a bear and wanted me to help pack it out. I?m not a cowboy and although I?d packed deer and javelina on that mule I didn?t know how it would act with a bear. I was younger and dumber, so I said I?d try to help them. My mule was skittery when I rode up to the bear, but I got off and led it around the carcass and allowed it to smell and step over the animal. After it seemed to calm down somewhat I held the mule?s bit and told the guys to put their bear over the saddle and tie the rear legs to the left cinch ring and the front legs to the right cinch ring. The mule didn?t like this at all and starting moving in circles every time they tried to get the bear into the saddle. They finally got it up after I took off my jacket and used it to blindfold the mule. They?d got the front legs tied off and were starting to work on the rear legs when the mule shook its head, knocked me down, looked around and saw the bear on its back, and spun around, knocking down the two hunters, too. There was nothing we could do but watch the mule run off kicking while the bear flopped from the saddle (it broke off a couple hundred yards later). I told the guys they?d have to get their own bear out, and went looking for my mule. I found it a half mile later. One rein was missing and a stirrup was snagged on a stump. I had a devil of a time getting things straightened away and the mule took off at a run when I finally climbed aboard. It ran straight back to camp -- under trees and through brush! There was no way it would allow me to control it. Its eyes were as big as saucers, its teeth were bared, and its ears were laid back. It didn?t stop until it reached its trailer. It had calmed down the next day but absolutely refused to carry me toward that canyon. Every time I?d point it in that direction -- even from a mile away -- it would start stepping sideways. It took a few years to see the humor in a mule running off with a bear flopping from the saddle. It certainly wasn't funny at the time.

I've had many funny exeriences while hunting, but one of the most memorable for me took place in the Santa Catalina Mountains above Tucson many years ago when the backpacking craze was just getting started. I was hunting whitetail off the Powerline Trail when I heard women's voices a way off. With my binocs I found two young ladies walking toward me --- wearing only their backpacks on top. I was standing about 20 feet above the trail, leaning on my Moses stick, when they walked past. Believe it or not they were talking about a recipe for a casserole and didn't see me. I couldn't let them get out of there without letting them know they'd been seen, so I said, "Hello, girls." They ran down the trail to a tree where they put on their shirts and bras, and then ran out of sight. I haven't seen them since, darn it. Bill Quimby

This is from the AGFD news article: "If Arizona had a lifetime revocation it would first allow us to take away Frost's hunting privileges for the rest of his life. Then if he later were convicted of poaching it would be a class six felony punishable by up to a year and a half in prison and up to a $100,000 fine," says Day." This seems extreme to me because, as I read it, there isn't a distinction between the severity of the violated law. I especially dislike a first strike and you're out law. An 18-year-old found hunting in the wrong unit could lose his privelige to hunt not only in Arizona but in every state with a reciprocal agreement == for the rest of his life! Bill

Re: radios and the SCI record book. I was editor of the SCI record books for more than 15 years and the club's Trophy Records Committee continually debated about ethics and what should make a trophy ineligible. In the end, everyone agreed the club must take a hunter's word the animal was taken legally and ethically. Each entry form has a statement of ethics and legallity the hunter must sign, but as someone on this thread suggested, "don't ask, don't tell" is rampant. That's true, even with B&C entries. There is no way to enforce these things unless a law has been broken and a conviction has been handed down. As for radios, I am writing a book now for a guy who hunted RM bighorn in Alberta, where radios are illegal for hunting. His outfitter sat on a high hill using cue cards large enough that the guide and hunter could see them from a mile away with optics. They had an elaborate code using numbers and letters... Holding up cards that said "F," "6" and "3", for example, might mean the ram is bedded about 300 yards to the northeast of where the hunters are, etc. The outfitter and guide had printed an index, and each carried a copy. My questions are: Should this be illegal, too? Is it unethical? I've always held that ethics are the minimum standards accepted by the majority of people in a specific area. In Africa, it is considered unethical (and even illegal in some provinces) to hunt within a half mile of a waterhole or use dogs to hunt leopards. In some states in the American South it is ethical and legal to hunt deer with hound packs. In Europe (and many places in the USA), bear, stag, roebuck and boar are hunted from elaborate "high seats" above places that have been baited for years. Etc. Etc. Bill Quimby

The last I saw that bull it was in the back of a Game and Fish truck driving away. Maybe we'll bump into each other this weekend. My grandson is coming up Thursday (today) and will want to fish Sheep's Crossing and maybe Big Lake. After that I'm returning to Tucson and flying to Argentina with my granddaughter on August 8 for a quickie brocket deer hunt so I can say I've hunted on six continents. Congratulations on your elk tag, Bret. You, your uncles and your grandfather "own" that unit, just as they do the sheep country in the Silverbells. Bill

The Arizona Game and Fish Department declared a brief open season on elk last week on Badger Creek, the little stream that runs through our cabin's property in Greer. A wildlife manager shot my elk, though. A big bull apparently had been hit by a car on a road a half mile above us and staggered downhill to our creek before going down three or four yards from where I park my truck. There was something wrong with its rear legs and it couldn't get up. My wife and I were in Springerville on our weekly grocery run when a hiker saw it and called the Game and Fish Department. We arrived just a few minutes after a wildlife manager shot it. Although its 6x6 antlers still were in velvet and growing they already were much larger than those on my last bull. We've not seen so much excitement at our cabin since a skunk walked up to our back door five or six years ago. Many years before that we had a black bear sow give one of my friends a thrill when its cub walked under the ladder he was using to wash our windows. bill quimby

Try Davis Mesa. I don't know what the access situation is now but it used to be a good spot for big bucks. Also check out the long "fingers" coming off the back side of the Rincons above the San Pedro. If the situation hasn't changed too much you should be able to a few places where you can glass up mule deer from the main road at first light. Bill Quimby

The Peppersauce Canyon road is a good place to start. Check topo maps on how to get to Rice Peak. Also try Dan Saddle and Oracle Ridge, and glass into upper Canyon del Oro. Years ago we used to hunt just off the main road on the front range below Molino Basin and the old Prison Camp. We simply found a good place to park and climbed (it was almost vertical) to a spot where we could glass. It was amazing how many deer we saw. That was 30 years ago. Don't know if they're still there after all the recent construction work and increased traffic. Good luck! Bill Quimby

HUNTERDUDE: You were fortunate to have been a witness to that incident. Thank you for sharing it. Have you thought about selling your story? Outdoor Life used to have a feature it called "It Happened to Me..." or something like that. Bill Quimby