STOMP442

It's called case efficiency. I have built a handful of .260AI's and 6.5-284s over the last few years so I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of what each caliber is capable of. This is my data with both calibers with components as near to the same as possible even. .260 Ackley improved Savage model 111 action 26" Mcgowen varmint weight 8 twist barrel Lapua Brass 140gr Berger VLD 42.0gr of H4350 = 2940 fps 44.5gr of H4831 = 2960 fps 6.5-284 Norma Savage model 111 action 26" Mcgowen Varmint weight 8 twist barrel Norma Brass 140gr Berger VLD 57.5gr of Retumbo = 2960 fps 52.0gr of H4831 = 2950 fps Now these are my rifles and my data but I have built a number of rifles in each caliber that have ended up liking loads and velocities very similar to what I have been running in my own rigs. Every .260AI I have built has liked 42-44.5gr of H4350 with a 140gr bullet right around the 2950 mark. Every 6.5-284 I have built has liked 53-58gr of Retumbo or 4831 with a 140gr bullet right around the 2950 mark. Now each cartridge is capable of higher velocities and the 6.5-284 will push the 140's a bit faster but at a cost of barrel life, recoil and powder usage.

.260 Ackley Improved will provide the same performance of your 6.5-284 and fit a short action with 140gr bullets plus use about 8 grains less powder to do it. I would never willingly shoot a 120 grain bullet unless the rifle just won't shoot the 140's. If you are stuck on the calibers you have listed the Creed would probably be the easiest to do but the straight .260 gets my vote.

Targetman.com located in vail with very reasonable shipping. 3/8" will hold up fine as long as impact velocities are below 2800fps and beyond 100 yards.

I am willing to bet there has been some extensive testing done on these to ensure that they do fly and shoot well. That being said these should perform very similarly to the .30 cal 215 hybrid which has been an excellent performer on game especially bigger game like elk. Edit: My bad, these are actually marketed as elite hunters which is the hunting versions of the Hybrids. Still there should be no problems with these bullets and faster twists since most hunters will not be shooting long strings of fire with them.

Proper shot placement is key regardless of caliber choice. That being said the .223 is more than capable to tackle deer. A good hunting bullet like the 65gr Sierra Game King which has good weight for carrying energy and offers good penetration and bullet expansion ensuring that energy is dumped into the animal would be my choice in a .22 cal deer rifle.

9 twist provides marginal stability with a stability factor of 1.3 at sea level at 75 degrees and 2950 fps and causes a 5% decrease in BC. Same conditions except 3000 ft elevation pushes the stability factor up to 1.5 and you can get all the BC out of the bullet. An 8 twist barrel would really be ideal for these bullets though as you wouldn't have to worry about altitude affecting your stability to less than ideal conditions.

Gotta pay for all that new tooling and research and development some how. This bullet is going to appeal to a very small niche of Shooters if you look at the big picture and will require a special twist barrel as well which limits availability to the casual Shooter as well.

The Ruger one is a much better built rifle without any of the problems the Savage ones have and just as accurate from what I have seen. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/06/varminter-com-reviews-ruger-7717-in-17-wsm-rimfire/

Just keep your C.B.T.O. the same so you are not jamming anything into the lands or keeping the same amount of jump. 10 thou seems pretty excessive but shouldn't change things much if it at all. Load some up and go shoot them is really the only way to know for sure.

Far to busy for me as well. Just use the big cross in the middle dial and squeeze.

5-8 thousand is a lot less than the 20+ a new one will cost. Since money is an issue have you tried talking to the bank and essentially buying the vehicle from yourself using the value of the vehicle? 8 grand is a lot easier to pay off over a couple years than all at once for sure. Just another option to look into.

I wouldn't mess with it. It's good looking gun as is and 9 pounds sans scope is just about perfect for a long range rig. Besides even with a brake you are going to want all the weight you can with that caliber and bullet weight.

I usually take a .22 or some other plinkers to mess with while the barrel of the one I am working on cools. Makes the waiting much more bearable when your still pulling a trigger.

Call Jim Briggs at Northland Shooters supply and he can tell you all about the system and what you need to get off the ground. He also carries all the barrels and tools for the job. A one stop shop and he is very knowledgeable and helpful. 1-763-682-4296

Another option to have the best of both worlds and skip some of the cost associated with a smith is to do a Remage project. Pre chambered and threaded barrels are available for around $350 and all the head spacing and fitting can be done by you. In all honesty having a smith do all the work to true up the action, chamber and thread, headspace and bed the stock not to mention buy the barrel you are probably more than 3/4 of the way to a Sendero or long range hunter. Cut out the middle man and do it yourself. Just my thoughts.

^^This^^ While the 140gr will remain much flatter than the heavier bullets out quite a ways the wind drift is nearly identical at about 450 yards; with the 168's having the clear advantage beyond that point. Wind drift is the name of the game, the less you have the more likely you are to hit what you aim at.

First off get one these. These are the handiest things to have around. http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/sinclair-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx This is how I do it for my rifles. First I seat the bullet long in the case and chamber into the rifle forcing the bullet into the lands and into the case. When looking at the bullet after ejecting the case you should be able to see some shiny square marks on the bullet. This is where the bullet engaged the rifling. I take some steel wool to the bullet and buff out the shiny marks and just bump the bullet a bit back into the case using the seating die in the press and chamber in the rifle again and check for shiny marks. I do this until I can just barely see where the bullet is touching by just leaving a single shiny line on the bullet. I then use the Hex Nut comparator and record my measurement to the ogive. I don't like my bullets at the lands or jammed so I will usually subtract .025" and use this number as my seating depth. Once in awhile a bullet will prefer to be in the lands but in my experience .025" off seems to be the sweet spot and still allow magazine feeding.

I have always found Bergers load data a bit anemic, if you weren't having any pressure signs I would work up in half grain increments to see if the groups would tighten up even more. Sounds to me like it's on the verge of an accuracy node. Hodgdons data lists 73.5gr max load with a 162 Amax.

The ol 250-3000 gets my vote. A 115 Berger at 2800 plus is more than enough for just about anything in Arizona with less recoil than a .243. My nephew has used his to take elk no problem and I have taken deer at 663 yards with mine. Awesome caliber for youth.

Or get Ruger to Weaver adapters.

Burris signature zee rings. The scope will be correctly aligned with no need to lap and they will not leave scope marks at all. They also have the ability to change inserts to give more elevation adjustment if needed.

Who said anything about ethics? I don't care what you hunt deer with. If you shoot them with a .338 Lapua or .50BMg more power to you. Thats not my particular cup O tea but to each their own. All I simply said was that I disagree with your statement that a .30 cal is more lethal on a poor shot. All I said is that there is more to it than that and that may not always be the case.

Not sure I agree with this statement. Poor shot placement is poor shot placement regardless of the caliber used. There is more that comes into play than just cartridge size when a poor shot is made. Bullet construction and performance has just as much to do with it than anything. The .300WSM may deliver more energy at point of impact but depending on shot location and the bullet used it may deliver most of that energy into the dirt behind the animal rather than into it. Take for example gut shooting a deer with a 300wm at 400 yards with a solid bullet that pokes straight through and making that same shot with a .243 using a bullet like the Berger vld that fragments and dumps energy and shrapnel into the guts and surrounding organs and tissue. Chances are the deer will die either way but how quickly and humanely may very considerably. Im not saying one bullet or cartridge is better than the other I am just simply saying there is more to consider than .065" of bullet diameter.Gut shoot a deer with a .243 and then do the same with a .338 lapua and tell me it doesn't make a difference. Without getting "ethics" involved. Everyone has made a poor shot at one time or another in their life. A big gun might waste some meat, but it's a lot less wasted meat than if the animal gets away If you require a .338 Lapua to hunt 85 pound deer with you have more problems than I care to tackle in this thread. If we used your method of thinking why don't we all hunt with grenade launchers that way we don't even have to actually hit the animal just get close and there might be a piece big enough to drag back to camp.

Also check that the test rifle criteria is the same. One load may have been done in a 26" barrel and another in a 22" barrel.

Not sure I agree with this statement. Poor shot placement is poor shot placement regardless of the caliber used. There is more that comes into play than just cartridge size when a poor shot is made. Bullet construction and performance has just as much to do with it than anything. The .300WSM may deliver more energy at point of impact but depending on shot location and the bullet used it may deliver most of that energy into the dirt behind the animal rather than into it. Take for example gut shooting a deer with a 300wm at 400 yards with a solid bullet that pokes straight through and making that same shot with a .243 using a bullet like the Berger vld that fragments and dumps energy and shrapnel into the guts and surrounding organs and tissue. Chances are the deer will die either way but how quickly and humanely may very considerably. Im not saying one bullet or cartridge is better than the other I am just simply saying there is more to consider than .065" of bullet diameter.