Jeff Welker

Seriously, after all the vitriolic name calling and finger pointing, why would Rep. Weiers want to discuss this issue with folks on this forum? I mean really, is there any chance he could change your mind? Unless you're just hoping to conduct a public flogging, the opportunity for civil discourse is long gone. The majority of individuals posting to this thread are not supportive. Continuing to rehash conspiracy theories and nasty accusations is not going to solve anything one way or another. I hope Amanda will lock this thread off as I don't see anything positive to be accomplished. Once future meetings are held with Rep. Weiers, AZSFWC and others, then Amanda could start a new thread to provide updates and where we could (hopefully) discuss this issue with a greater level of respect for one another.

Thanks for informing me Amanda; I was not aware of AZSFW - that is a shame on me. How do I become more informed about AZSFW and their work?

nosajpo - You are absolutely correct; becoming an organized group with a united agenda would be daunting. You are also correct that the strong opinions (however varied) held by Arizona's outdoorsmen can ultimately be its strength. While I'm often disappointed when I see individuals post knee-jerk comments that do not help our cause, I am also equally encouraged that folks are so passionate about Arizona's outdoors. The ultimate challenge is organizing and focusing that wonderful passion unto a machine that carries the same force with AZGFD and the Legislature as the well funded organizations representing ranchers, landowners, and other special interests. Unfortunately, all the well intended groups such as ADBSS, AAF, ADA, AES, etc have separate agendas that do not address global issues of wildlife/land management in Arizona. We join these groups and good things get accomplished on a micro-level; however, the macro issues which impact us all go unaddressed. Frankly; until Arizona's hunters, fishers and outdoorsman can unite and fund an entity that will day-in-and-day-out keep tabs on AZGFD and the Legislature (I'm talking lobbyists and lawyers) we will continue to be frustrated. Messrs. Quimby is 100% correct when he says we need to take legal action to get the attention of the policy makers. While we may have a small victory from time to time (i.e. HB 2072 being placed on hold), they don't address the big picture and long-term change. I've read many references in this post about bad things that happened in Utah. I was directly involved with one of those fights and it became painfully obvious that we were ultimately going to take it in the shorts and lose. We had all the passion on our side; however, the opposition was better organized and funded. Instead of debating whether we should pay more for tags or other game enhancement fees; how about we discuss donating the same money to the creation of an organization that will help shape policy, rather than complain about it? Getting HB 2072 delayed is a reactive victory. We need to be proactive in shaping legislation instead of being surprised by it. Just one man's opinion.

Jay, I have alot of respect for the slow approach, find the facts, get to the bottom of the bill and weigh the pros and cons. Problem is when you get thrown a fastball how much time do you really have to analyze? The fact that this bill got put on a fast track with little to no warning to those whom it will affect throws a great big caution light upm maybe even a flashing red light. Why not slow the process down and give those affected time to digest the information? Maybe even give some input on what they would like to see? Two people on this site who are pretty well versed Tony and Bill seem to be pretty keen on the dos and don'ts and they seem skeptical as have others who frequent this site. I agree, lets take the time to find the facts, but what kind of time do we have??? Respectfully, Jeff From one Jeff to another. You are absolutely correct that a bill being pushed through via emergency measure or other means does not give anyone much time to research the facts and make an informed decision. Accordingly, I would hope opposition to this bill would be based upon the salient rationale that we have not been given enough time to reasonably learn about this bill and arrive at an informed decision. For folks on this board or anywhere else to post uniformed opinions that (in some cases) are clearly nothing more than personal expressions of political bias or unhappy rhetoric does not help the cause of all hunters and outdoorsmen in this great state. Name calling and infighting amongst the ranks will continue to get us labeled as an unorganized group of unhappy campers that can't control itself enough to form a unified position on anything. Admittedly, consolidating the varied user interests of all the outdoor resources managed by AZGFD and the legislature is a daunting task. Each subgroup (i.e. hunters, fishers, landowners, etc) have different priorities and achieving consensus for the purpose of influencing legislation and policy would be very difficult. However, until we become a more organized and united group, we will continue to be frustrated and likely get the short end of the stick. Can you imagine what great things could be accomplished if the outdoors folks could create a relationship with the ranchers and landowners in this state?

Great report and nice photo. I like hearing about sons taking their dads hunting - I forwarded this to my son

I'm in the minority of folks that sees an opportunity for positive benefits for all Arizona outdoorsmen in HB 2072, rather than a shrouded conspiracy involving a small special interest group. Maybe I'm wrong; however, I agree with Jay on the best approach to finding out what is intended with this bill by directly asking informed questions of 2072's sponsor. I also think all of us are served best in these type of lively debates by couching our individual comments as "opinions" instead of adamant facts. I have sent an email to Representative Weiers asking specific questions about this bill and will happily post his responses when received.

Congrats on a great buck. Thanks for sharing your story and the super photos.

A wonderful lion - well done.

Bill: Here is a photo of Escudilla after the fire. While it doesn't show Terry Flat in the photo, it is my understanding that the entire top of the mountain got hammered like this area by the tower. I have spent considerable time in and around that mountain hunting, hiking and photographing over the past 30+ years. Terry Flat is one of my favorite places in the world. I never thought about hunting grouse up there; however, I'm guessing it will be awhile before the wildlife fully returns. I'm also guessing (based upon what I've seen in the rest of the Wallow Fire area) that the grasses are coming back well, but the trees are another story. What little I know of grouse in AZ, they need those spruce and fir trees to thrive. My father-in-law fought the first fire on Escudilla in 1951 and he says it was burned nearly identical to damage done with the Wallow Fire. I hope mother nature is just a quick in healing the mountain over the next couple of decades as she did in the decades following 1951. The Forest Service has the mountain completely closed and I'm not sure when they will let folks back up to Terry Flat. I definitely will give you a call this summer. Would love to buy you lunch and talk all things outdoors.

Bill: While I was slightly younger than 30 in 1966, I can remember a tent older than the one in that photo. BTW, your book "Sixty Years a Hunter" has a place of honor in my humble library. As an Arizona native, I sincerely enjoy reading and re-reading your great stories of hunting in my home state and some of the places I've dreamed of. If you keep professing to be an elderly hunter, I'll expect you to post a photo of yourself and O'Connor sitting on the porch at the Slade Cabin

HOLY SMOKES - what a great video. Considering Dusty just shot that buck yesterday, you did yeoman's work to get that edited and uploaded so quickly. Very professional work. The music, captions, transitions and other effects were spot on. A hardy congratulation to you and Dusty. What a wonderful way to memorialize a great hunt. BTW Dusty, that is a super buck - well done.

Wonderful buck - thanks for sharing.

The original photo is a color transparency/slide. I scanned it into my computer and did some quick PhotoShop work to make the background monochrome. It is not my best effort as I was rushed at the time; however, I think it makes the photo look more interesting. My dad just laughs at all the camo clothing my son and I have accumulated over the years. He always wore some type of denim trousers with a plaid shirt - he still has taken more big game than my son and me. He tells me all he ever did was keep himself downwind as much as possible and the quarry really didn't care what he was wearing. His hunting buddy on the right was an USAF fighter pilot (flew F-104's) and shot his speed goat with .38 special S&W pistol. Dad said he would rarely hunt with a rifle and preferred the challenge of getting into pistol range. Both he and my dad shot on the USAF Rifle/Pistol team. They were very good shots with either weapon.

My Dad still has the gun in his safe. He turned 86 this year and can't hunt like he used to; however, we still get out and blow the dust off this rifle a few times every year. Both myself and my oldest son took our first big game animals with that rifle. In 1959, the 300 Winchester Magnum cartridge did not exist. Accordingly, guys like my dad that wanted more horsepower than the 30-06 would provide often had them rechambered to the 30x338. As dad tells it, if the 308 Norma Magnum (nearly identical to the 30x338) had not surfaced in 1960, Winchester would have introduced the 30x338 as their new factory magnum in 1963. Instead, they felt it necessary to come out with a different case - thus the 300 Win Mag. While both the 300 and 30x338 are very close in performance, the case dimensions (i.e. longer neck) give the 30x338 a slight advantage with greater flexibility on seating depth compared to the 300. An advantage that only reloaders can enjoy and many will argue doesn't make it worth the effort of case forming and reloading. Obviously, my crew favors the 30x338

Super photos and a great story - thanks for sharing.

Tremendous trophy buck - well done.

Congrats on your great buck. No worries about the 105, he'll just be bigger next year

Congratulation on your son's classic buck and that you were able to share that experience with him. You both definitely made the most of a short hunt.

I vote the Berger VLD. One thing to keep in mind is how any "VLD" style bullet performs at close range (i.e. under 200 yards). I'm specifically referring to impact and expansion damage compared to controlled expansion hunting bullets like the Nosler Partition or Barnes TSX. I spoke with an individual who recently guided his hunter to a very nice desert bighorn ram. The hunter had anticipated making a long shot and loaded his ammo with Berger VLD's. They were able to stalk to close range (just under 100 yards) and the Berger VLD did such devastating damage that he was worried that a taxidermist might have problems with the mount. Just something to consider when making your final choice.

Nice lion - well done.

Researched the Norma website. They have a very good selection and cover most of the hunting calibers I'm considering. It appears they make the brass for Weatherby.

Wonderful report and sentiment expressed about the sheep hunting experience - the stuff of my dreams. Look forward to your photos. As a wannabe sheep hunter in waiting, would you mind adding some information on your equipment (pros/cons) such as optics, rifle, boots, etc.

+2

Congrats on a great ram. The photos are tremendous. Whoever you had carry a nice camera and flash up on that rough mountain deserves several pats on the back. I am looking forward to your hunt report and more photos.

Way to go Mark. A tremendous ram for sure. I can't wait for your hunt report and great photos.