LazzInc

I think I see about 129 5/8ths gross ,,,,

silent hunter ,,,,, good to hear from you ,,,,,,, no on the 1,000 yard bench rest shooting ,,,,, the company has grown too big and spare time is very hard to find ,,,,, in addition ,, I have a teenage son and teenage daughter , OUCH ,,,,,,

oh yeah, the 168gr sierra has been a stellar performer out of the Lazz Patriot and the Warbird ,,, it is probably THE most popular Lazz factory load we sell ,,,,,,

first of all, I want to thank all of YOU for allowing me to be part of this conversation ,,,,, things here can sometimes be controversial and when a man’s ego gets involved, well, things can go astray (((Ladies out there, imagine that huh ?!?!?))) ,,,, anyway ,,,,, 308nut is certainly dedicated to what he does and he uses a proven method that works for him ,,,, or at least it has worked well for him so far ,,,,,, this really boils down to two very different ways to approach the long range shot ,,,,,, 308nut and many others use relatively slow bullets, with high BCs, and use windage and elevation turrets on the scope to adjust for the shot, based upon many field calculations that are probably best left to the hand held computer devices they are using ,,,,, 1 ,,,,,, I don't like slow bullet speed, regardless of how good the BC is etc ,,,,, wind drift at 1,000 yards with my 168gr bullet out of the Warbird is FAR LESS than a 308 win shooting a 220gr bullet, ((((even though the BC of the 220gr is far superior))) because time of flight to the target is so much faster and an overall drop from boreline is only around 165" with the Warbird to 1,000 yards ,,, that the wind has less TIME to impact the bullet coming out of the Warbird ,,,, MORE than making up for the differences in bullet BC ,,,, 2 ,,,,,,,, realize that with both calibers shooting the same bullet ,,, the Lazz Warbird will still have the retained velocity at 400 yards, that the 308 win has at the MUZZLE ,,,,,,, and that turns into killing power at long range ,,, and YOU NEED THAT to be successful in the field ,,,, 3 ,,,,, I don't like scopes that use windage and elevation adjustment turrets to prepare for the long ranger shot ,,,,, the biggest reason for this is that I have NEVER seen a scope that had adjustments like that, that would return to, or adjust to these exact calculated positions, every time, back and forth without fail ,,,, especially when the scope is mounted on a high powered magnum rifle ,,,,,, 4 ,,,,, I like to sight in and actually practice at long range ,,,,, with a scope that once adjusted, never gets moved ,,,, so that my 3 mil-dot down is 710 yards ,,,, my second mil-dot down is 550 yards ,,, and my first mil dot down is 400 yards ,,, and with the center cross hair, at 100 yards, I can shoot the eye out of a prairie dog at such close range ,,,,, with a FRONT FOCAL PLANE MOUNTED mil dot reticle, so that my mil-dots are the same spacing regardless of the power setting the scope is adjusted to ,,,,, 5 ,,,,, I like to make sure that my load and rifle will shoot 5" 3 shot groups at 710 yards ,,, that it will shoot 3 1/2" groups at 550 yards ,,, and 2" groups at 400 yards ,,,,,, that is more important than all the performance calculators in the world ,,,,, THEN ,,,, as I said in my previous post on this thread ,,,, when it is time for the shot and I go to WAR ,,,, I make my mental adjustments for WIND, ANGLE and then RANGE in that order ,,,, hold the mil-dot reticle to those adjustments, get real steady and squeeze the trigger ,,,, do I shoot at our valuable game animals much beyond 710 yards ?? ,,, NOPE ,,, WHY ??? ,,,, because I do not PRACTICE much at ranges beyond 710 yards ,,,, that simple ,,,,,,, I am old and fat now and I cannot see much farther than that !! ,,,,,,,,,,,, I will be hunting into Mexico till Friday of this next week ,,,, so I will be back on line after that time ,,,,,, WISH ME LUCK ! ,,,,,,

ac guy ,,,, hey ,, at least you are bold enough to ask !!! ,,,,,,

couesDeer ,,,,,, a 5 1/2" group at 500 yards is very good ,,,,,, but I think you could get it under 3/3/4" @ 500 by switching to IMR-7828 powder, and federal 215M primer ,,, and seat the ogive of the 140gr b-tip bullet about .010" off the lands ,,,,, "IF" they will still go in the mag box seated like that ,,,,,, otherwise seat them as far out as you can, but still having them fit the mag box ,,,,, then work the load up to about 60 fps SLOWER with the 7828 than you are going now with the reloader25, to further improve accuracy while keeping an eye on pressure ,,,,,, then when you have settled on the FINAL load ,,,, then load up a hundred or so with new brass, then rotate the LOADED cartridge case necks on a concentricity gauge from RCBS to cull the ones with .002" or less run-out from the rest ,,, and use the .002" or less ammo for your long range shots at trophy game animals ,,,, if there was ever a better powder made for the 7mm magnum bore, than IMR-7828, I don't know of it ,,,,,, BTW ,,,,,, I just was at the 550 yard range this morning in my final preparation for Mexico Coues Deer hunting tomorrow ,,,,, first three shot group out of my personal Warbird ,,,,, measured 3 & 5/8 " ,,,,, no wind right at 7:00AM either, so I had a chance to correctly set my scope windage right on at 550, which is also important ,,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,

Just think what you could do with a new super accurate lightwieght Lazz Warbird rifle ?!?!?!

308nut ,,,,,, are you going to take Lark out for some lessons ??

What kind of groups do you see at 500 yards with the reloader 25 powder and 140 b-tips ? ,,,

Lark ,,,,, ,,,and when you realize that the Lazzeroni rifles NOW are very light weight compared to 10 years ago ,,,, you might be even more impressed ,,,,, go to the side of the home page here and click on the Lazzeroni Banner ad ,,,, you will go right to the Lazz Website for the latest information ,,,,, also ,, remember, my own personal Lazz Warbird rifle is the Thumbhole model with a 25" barrel ,,, works like a champ ,,,, same for the one we built for Jim Reynolds ,, john@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,

the last time I compared the 300Wby Mag to the 300 Rem Ultra Mag ,,,,, I used factory 180gr ammo for both and factory rifles with the 26" barrel length for both ,,,, that is where I came up with the data that the 300 Ultra is ALMOST as fast as the 300 Wby ,,,, anyone else tried that exact comparison with different results ? ,,,, same thing happens when you compare the 30-378 Wby Mag to the Lazzeroni Warbird ,,,,, using 180gr FACTORY loads ,,,,, whether both have 26" barrels or both have 28" barrels ,,, the Lazz Warbird will beat the 30-378 Wby Mag by around 100 fps ,,,, handloaded velocities are a different story and it all depends upon the actual dimensions of the WBY chamber, the throat, speed of the powder used and type of bullet/lubrication etc ,,,,, the 30/378 is actually on par with the Warbird as far as velocity POTENTIAL is concerned ,,,, but the factory rifles are hindered by a poor chamber/throat design, and the big belt on the 378 case, makes it very difficult to design a mag box arrangement to hold 3 cartridges properly and make them feed flawlessly, like the Lazz Warbird does ,,,,, That is the whole reason I made the Lazz Warbird, was to go as fast as my own 30-378 Wildcat did, but without the belt and headspace on the shoulder for better accuracy potential, along with 3 in the mag box capability ,,,,,

Lark ,,,,, no problem ,,,, I need a little ribbing from time to time, keeps my head from getting too big ,,,, you will be happy to know that I am working with one of the USA'a major rifle manufacturers as we speak, to offer a reasonably priced rifle in the Lazz Warbird caliber,,,,,, I am not for certain exactly when it will happen, nor will I steal their thunder with a premature announcement ,,, but it will come ,,,, also ,,,, I need to lighten up a bit on the Ultra-mags, they really are pretty good calibers, the 300 Ultra Mag for instance is just about as fast as a 300 Wby Mag, but without the belt ,,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,,

I don't want to sound like an authority all the time on the Lazzeroni Warbird ,,,, But I am the one who first drew the Warbird's cartridge dimensions on a piece of paper in about 1995 ,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,

yeah ,,, when they leave Jim's or my own Lazz Warbird Rifle ,,, we nick name them the "Meat-Seeking Missles" ,,,, MSM for short ,,, which is more than I can say for the gentleman who thinks his ultraMag is everything the world has ever known (Lazz Warbird just eats the Ultra-mags for breakfast)) and he doesn't even like my comas ,,,,!???! BTW ,,, they help keep my brain engaged ,,,,,

The Warbird's Nick-name is the ""MSM"" ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

yeah but wind is never constant all the way to the target, especially when shooting across deep canyons ,,,,, so you had better be better at "guessing & doping the wind" than measuring and calculating it with a computer,,,, and I still disagree with you on the angle business ,,,, when my second mil-dot is dead on at 550 yards ,,,,, and my first mil-dot at 400 yards (((I don't like to estimate OR calculate bullet drop in the field, I like to know exactly where my rifle shoots at the various distances ))) ,,,, and I am shooting at a 45 degree angle to the target, and my multiplier is .7 ,,,, and the range finder says 550 ,,,, I will hold for 385, which is to put my 400 yard mil-dot right on the animals heart, then adjust for the wind ,,,,, and that has worked for me, many, many times ,,,,, I call that """ practical application, in the field, of ballistic technology """" ,,,,

7mm Lazz Firebird is a good bit faster and flatter than the 7mm RUM ,,,,, barrel life is around 900 rounds with a Top-notch Lazz Barrel and Lubed bullets,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,,

308nut ,,,, OK ,, you sound like a for-real kind of guy ,,,,,, you must be a much better hunter than I am, for I could never find the time to key everything into a computer before the shot ,,,,, sounds like you are actually pretty good at it though ,, so let me ask you ,,,,,, “”In your own words”” WHY does it matter what your bullet velocity is when computing angle/hold multiplier adjustments at the longer ranges? ,,,,, ,,,, I am much older and fatter now than I used to be, ,,, but I thought all that mattered was horizontal distance ? ,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,,,,,

Thanks to all of you for the good words ,,,,, Just let me know if I can be of any help ,,,,, I will hang around here till you all throw me out ,,,,, nice to be on a forum without "too-much" BS flying around ,,,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,,,

308nut ,,,, now com'on, let's get real here ,,,,, first of all, you are never going to measure the actual angle of the shot in the field without a bit of error ,,,, second ,,, you don't need a computer to figure the horizontal distance to the target ,,,,, matters not the actual distance ,,, only the horizontal distance ,,,, and at 700 yards or less, approximate calculations will get you close enough for a killing shot ,,,, but I will admit that the faster the caliber and the flatter the trajectory, the less error will occur ,,, I don't know of anyone who really has the time or the patience to be playing with a hand held computer in the field when setting up for the shot on the buck of a lifetime ,,,,

308nut ,,, please also take no offense but you are making it way too complicated ,,,,,, as for angle and hold ,,,,, all you do is multiply the angle multiplier by the actual range ,,,, and hold for that ,,,,,, makes no difference what caliber you are shooting or the speed of your bullet ,,,, john@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,

below is a piece I wrote for the Lazzeroni website on long range shooting and preparation in the field,,,, The Ethics ,,,, Long-range shooting at big game animals and the ethics involved has generated heated debate from both sides for many years now. Many hunters feel that the long range shooters more often than not carelessly launch big high velocity projectiles cross country, in their pursuit of our treasured game animals, never caring about how many are only wounded to run off and die a slow painful death. Similarly, many archery hunters feel the same way about the hunter who repeatedly takes shots at distances great than 50 yards, only because they themselves are not able to consistently hit the kill zone with their archery skills at ranges beyond that. As a young hunter growing up in Wisconsin, I remember all too well one particular opening morning of the November deer season, with many orange “pumpkins” high up in the trees positioned strategically along the local deer trails. Suddenly, shooting erupted with 10-20 total shots being fired, all at less than 100 yards, at a poor little whitetail buck running thru the trees, dragging one leg, lower jaw half shot off and when the dust settled, the deer was still running, with hunters in hot pursuit looking for the tiniest specks of blood on the leaves and grass of the forest floor. How is that type of shooting/hunting any more ethical than the hunter who practices and is able to consistently take game animals at the longer ranges? They are both going to miss once in a while and both will wound an animal occasionally that will get away. But is one type of hunting/shooting more ethical than the other? I think not, as it really boils down to the individual REGARDLESS of whether they take their animals at long range or short, archery, hand-gun, muzzle-loader or center-fire rifle. The Rifle ,,, Long-range shooting at big game animals is a whole nother world compared to long-range shooting at targets. Target shooting generally requires only that you put multiple shots into the tightest group possible thru a piece of paper and it matters little how the bullet performs after it passes thru the paper. In contrast, shooting big game animals at long range requires that the impact velocity/energy of the projectile on the animal be sufficient to allow for proper bullet expansion and a good clean kill, with one shot. In my 25 years or so of taking more than 80 big game animals at the longer ranges, (200+ yards) I normally get good killing performance if the impact velocity, downrange on the animal, is at or above 2,500 fps while retaining at least 1,500 foot pounds of energy on deer/antelope sized animals and 2,300 foot pounds on the larger animals like elk, goat, caribou and moose. In addition to killing power, high velocity at the longer ranges gives you a flatter trajectory, less of an arc if you will, so that there is a greater margin for error if your range calculations are not exact, which can happen when your rangefinder gets a hit on a tree or rock 50 yards in front of or behind the animal you are actually ranging. High velocity at long range also cuts down on the margin of error when calculating the actual distance/holdover for an animal that may be at a steep angle, greater than 20° up or down from straight away. Now that you have chosen your caliber to meet these criteria, you need to choose a rifle chambered in that caliber, that will shoot a premium hunting bullet with supreme long range accuracy, as 100 yard group sizes mean very little at 500 yards. My personal accuracy standard in the field is the ability to shoot three shots from a clean cold barrel into a 5” group or less at 550 yards. These standards are not easy to meet and if your rifle won’t do that, you need to limit your shots to the ranges that you or your rifle will shoot a 5” three shot group, that simple. And not only must your rifle be up to these standards, so must YOU be. If you have chosen one of the new super magnums, recoil is going to be a factor that you must deal with and you may need to adjust the way you hold the rifle etc to consistently perform at the longer ranges. Do it any way you need to, but these personal standards that I have for rifle and projectile performance have served me well for many years. The Scope ,,, The scope you choose for your long range hunting rifle should be at least 12X on its top magnification setting and in my opinion 16X is better. 24X will also work but with the 6-24X variable scopes, it is sometimes tough to pick up an animal in the scope at very close range on the lowest 6X setting, especially if it is moving. With the larger magnifications, you need to choose a scope with supreme optics, for it does no good to have the 16X setting available, if the optics are so poor that you cannot make out your intended target under low light conditions. You need to mount the scope with the greatest amount of integrity possible, as any movement or slippage of the tube or breaking/loosening of mounting screws in the field will end your hunt pronto. You need to choose a scope with some type of ranging reticle, whether it be a mil-dot or other type of ranging/holdover configuration, as I have had bad experiences with using dial-up drop or windage turrets on a scope to adjust for range or wind in the field. Dial up turrets are not always repeatable from one adjustment to the next and back, and in the moment of excitement, you might forget to adjust them altogether or they may still be set for the last shot you took, which may have been at a totally different distance. It is for this reason I choose a scope with the standard mil-dot reticle in the FRONT focal plane, so that once I establish the correct sight-in distance for each of the mil dots down from center, this calculation will not change whether the scope is set to 8X, 12X, or 16X, my first mil dot down is at a specific distance regardless. Same goes for windage calculations with the mil-dot reticle in the front focal plane, so that if you need to hold ½ mil into the wind, ½ mil is the same whether at the 10X or 16X position on your variable scope. In addition, the scope you choose needs to be able to hold up to the recoil of the caliber you have chosen, which really begins to narrow the choices available I am sad to say, but this is but one of the components it takes to consistently get the job done in the field. Bottom line is that the shooter needs to develop a system that works for them so that at the moment of truth, the fewer calculation mistakes that you make, the higher your chances of a successful outcome. The Sight-in ,,,,, How you sight in your rifle is probably THE most important factor of all for proper shot placement at long range. For many years I would sight-in my rifles so that the crosshair was dead-on at 300 yards and that would put the first mil-dot down dead-on at approximately 500 yards and this was pretty much the same for all of the long-mag Lazzeroni .257, .284, .308 and .338 calibers I was shooting. Then one year on a dalls sheep hunt in northern Alaska, I had my trophy sheep standing at a distance of 290 yards, but at a steep uphill angle and when I pulled the trigger the bullet sailed right over it’s back, exploding into the rocks behind it. I immediately realized what had happened, jacked another shell in the chamber, held this time at the bottom of his chest, pulled the trigger and the sheep came rolling down the hill. What that shot illustrated was the fact that even though my rifle was zeroed at 300 yards, it was almost 4” high at 200 yards, and with the steep angle of the shot on the sheep, the path of the bullet was actually 4” above the point of aim, even though the sheep was at 290 yards. Since that day I have zeroed my rifles at 100 yards, with the first mil-dot down dead-on at approx 400 and the second mil-dot down dead-on at approximately 550 yards, so that the path of the bullet would never again be above my point of aim. There will be variances from this exact sight-in method depending upon which caliber and bullet weight that you choose, but with most of the super-magnum calibers shooting the mid-weight bullet weight for the particular caliber, this basic trajectory and sight-in will apply. When shooting your rifle at long range, the bullet has not only a vertical up-down arc to its path, but has a slight left to right arc as well (for right hand twist rifled barrels) so if you zero your windage at 100 yards, it can be as much as 7” to the right at 550 yards and that of course is not acceptable. It is for this reason I zero the windage adjustment on my scope at a distance of 550 yards on a dead calm day, so that even though the bullet may be as much as 1 ½” left of the point of aim when shooting at 100-400 yards, it will be right on at 550. When practicing at long range don’t just shoot from a bench rest, get down prone on the ground with a good bi-pod and rear bag and make sure you can shoot well from this type of field position. I have found no way to shortcut these types of sight-in procedures and again each shooter needs to work out a system that works for them, but doing all your sight-in work at 100 or 200 yards and then using computer calculated ballistics tables etc to make the long shots, is a sure way to disaster in the field and disappointment with your actual long range shooting ability. The SHOT ,,,, Before I take any shot beyond 200 yards in the field, I use a little system to remind myself of the calculations I need to make prior to the shot. I call it going to WAR, in this order; WIND, ANGLE and RANGE. For my Lazzeroni rifle in caliber 7.82 (.308) Warbird, shooting 168gr bullets, I kind of memorized the WIND drift calculations into a simple formula that I can quickly use in the field and you can do this same type of calculation for your particular caliber and bullet weight using a computer ballistics software program. The basic calculations for my own rifle are as follows; if the wind is blowing at a right angle to my shot, bullet wind drift in inches will be equal to ½ the speed of the wind at 300 yards, it will be equal to wind speed at 400 yards, 1 ½ times the speed of the wind in inches at 500 yards and 2 times the speed of the wind in inches at 600 yards. Now, wind is never constant all the way to the target, especially across big canyons, nor is it always at a perfect right angle to your shot, so some interpolation and good o’l doping comes into play here, along with a simple hand-held wind speed indicator. ANGLE is the next thing I need to look at, so let’s say that straight down is zero and straight out level is 90°. If your target is at approx 65° (you can use your arm to kind of eye-ball this) your angle/range multiplier would be .8. If your target is at approx 45° in this arc, your angle/range multiplier would be .7. I your target is at a really steep angle of 30° in this arc, then your angle/range multiplier would be .5. And the last calculation I make is the RANGE with a good handheld rangefinder. Let’s say I have just spotted a beautiful Wyoming trophy mule deer feeding on the other side of a steep canyon, it is time for THE SHOT and I get into a good steady prone position using my bi-pod and a rock for a steady rear support. The wind is blowing at just about a perfect right angle to the shot at a speed where I am shooting from of approximately 10 mph, but probably a little faster in the middle of the canyon, which is much higher above the ground. The angle of the shot is down approximately 25° from straight across and the range is 475 yards. I will calculate 1 ½ times the speed of the wind in inches at approx 500 yards and with a 10mph wind, that means I want to hold 15 inches into the wind and I am going to add another 3 inches to cover what I think is a higher windspeed mid-canyon, so the total I want to hold into the wind is 18”. The mil-dots on my horizontal reticle are spaced 3.6” apart for every 100 yards, at 500 yards each mil-dot is spaced 18” apart, so I want to hold 1 mil-dot into the wind, from the center point of aim. The actual range is 475 yards, but my angle/range multiplier is .8, so to keep it simple in my head, I take 500 times .8 and subtract 25, so I am going to hold on the animal as if my range were actually 375 yards. OK, it is the moment of truth now, the deer has just cleared a bush it was feeding behind, and is standing almost perfectly broadside. I motion to my spotter that I am preparing to shoot so that he can give me the details on where this first shot has hit. I position my first mil-dot down from center (my 400 yard dot) at the bottom of his heart, then pull into the wind 1 full mil-dot from his heart and squeeze the trigger, not wiggling from this sight-picture position until the rifle fires. With a little luck the bullet finds its mark and the animal is then lying on the ground waiting for us to make our way across the canyon. If your spotter tells you that you have made a marginal hit like in the paunch or backside, chamber another round, make the hold adjustment for more/less wind or elevation based upon the information from your spotter and hit him again and keep hitting him till he either falls dead or it is obvious that he will. If your spotter tells you that you have missed completely but the animal is still standing there not knowing what is going on, then take the information from your spotter, make the necessary aiming adjustments and try again. If your spotter tells you that you missed the deer completely, but he is running or walking away, DON’T shoot again as your chances of hitting a moving animal at that distance are far less than when he was standing still and of course you just missed the good standing shot. In summary, with the right rifle/caliber combination and a great amount of practice on your part, long range killing shots at game animals in the field can be made on a consistent and ethical basis. John Lazzeroni

I personally use the Lazz 168gr HPBT factory load for real long range shooting with my Warbird,,,,, accurate as heck and really puts the hurt on the deer regardless of the range ,,,, John Lazzeroni ,,,, john@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,,